brad_religion Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Christians oftentimes tell me that if they found out there is no God, they would rape, kill, steal, etc. I was thinking if we give them a hypothetical situation, they would discover that their morality is from THEM, not the bible and not from God. Just tell them to imagine the world we live in has no god and atheism is correct. Then, point out, when they think "God" is telling them to do something moral, what would the explanation be in a world where a god didn't exist? They would ultimately have to admit that the "God" they hear telling them morality is themselves and their own mind's morality. In other words, it is exactly what atheists have always said. God is in their head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Heh - would be nice if you could get them to think hypothetically like that, but fervent Xians are stubborn about envisioning any other world than the one they already do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KT45 Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Well i guess one thing you can do is ask them if the think such and such is wrong, then say "well the bible doesnt say it's wrong so it must be from you". I don't think the bible mentions pedophila and the bible actually supports slavery so these might be starts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exbeliever Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 I was thinking if we give them a hypothetical situation, they would discover that their morality is from THEM, not the bible and not from God. Just tell them to imagine the world we live in has no god and atheism is correct. Then, point out, when they think "God" is telling them to do something moral, what would the explanation be in a world where a god didn't exist? They would ultimately have to admit that the "God" they hear telling them morality is themselves and their own mind's morality. In other words, it is exactly what atheists have always said. God is in their head. I'm not sure how far this would get you. First, I doubt many Christians would admit that there is a logically possible world in which a god does not exist. Plantinga's ontological argument, for instance, suggests that if there is any possible world in which a god exists, then god, a necessary being, must exist in all possible worlds. Less sophisticated Christians might simply say that any contingent world demands a non-contingent cause. So, I could see your simple request that they imagine a world without god devolving into a full-fledged atheological argument about cosmological and ontological arguments. Second, where do you go if they simply say, "In your imagined world, I would be crazy because I would be hearing voices in my head, so it really doesn't matter"? Third, if the Bible was part of your imagined world, they could simply say that they abstract principles from specific biblical commands and those could be their moral guides whether or not an actual god existed. I think a pretty good approach with Christians and morality is using some version of the Euthyphro dilemma. Less sophisticated Christians mostly hold a version the highly-problematic divine command theory which can easily be demonstrated. More sophisticated Christians appeal to god's nature, but I'm fairly sure that this doesn't overcome the dilemma for reasons I don't have the time to go into. Anyway, good luck in your conversations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eponymic Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Christians oftentimes tell me that if they found out there is no God, they would rape, kill, steal, etc. I think this shows a fundamental flaw in what the Christians think the moral and/or spiritual ways of a non-believer are. Just because you don't believe in a particular God doesn't mean their aren't forces of nature and energy at work out there that propagate negative and positive reactions. If you create negative energies, you'll draw negative reactions to you, and so forth. The fact is that if you live by the laws of nature, you're more in tune with anything that could be termed 'God' than any religious archetype. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sage Nabooru Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Anybody's morality is their own. Personally I find it morally wrong to confront people for the purpose of making arguments about their personal belief systems and little else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric_PK Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 Christians oftentimes tell me that if they found out there is no God, they would rape, kill, steal, etc. I was thinking if we give them a hypothetical situation, they would discover that their morality is from THEM, not the bible and not from God. Just tell them to imagine the world we live in has no god and atheism is correct. Then, point out, when they think "God" is telling them to do something moral, what would the explanation be in a world where a god didn't exist? They would ultimately have to admit that the "God" they hear telling them morality is themselves and their own mind's morality. In other words, it is exactly what atheists have always said. God is in their head. There's an interesting question that can be asked... Some terrorists believe that if they die in a specific way, they are guaranteed a place in heaven. So, ask the christian what they would do if their pastor told them that god said they needed to kill somebody. Or what they would do if they received that answer through prayer. My guess is that most people wouldn't do it. Which means that their moral base is not their religion. Though my experience is that many will say, "my god wouldn't do that..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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