My Ex Pastor Crossed The Line

[Mikefight]

I sent an email to some friends, my wife(still a christian), and my former pastor. It was a copy of "The Thinking Christian" basically. I wanted them to better understand why I had stopped believing, nothing more. I had removed the wedge from my brain.

 

My ex-pastors response:

Just to help her understand......hum??

 

The reason the doctrines don't change is because they are true.

 

Why would an atheist need to evangelize? Which I think is what you are trying to do. Why do you have this need to convince others? If there are no absolutes then the only thing that matters is what works? Is your wife becoming a better person these days? This email are the kinds of comments that are going to create problems in your family.....I think she gets the point....weeks ago....you don't believe and she isn't smart enough to get it right now....you are going to create a wedge in your marriage if you continue to press the point.....unless of coarse that is what you are trying to do?

 

Sorry, Mike, this email strikes me as a reason to question your motives.

 

My response:

The email was just to show the thinking that went though my brain, nothing more. I sent that email to several people. These were the people like yourself who have a hard time understanding why I changed.

 

You are out of line sir. Who are you to tell me what I can talk to my wife about? You are basically calling me a liar. How dare you accuse me of trying to drive a wedge in my family. How would you feel if I told you that you are a fake just trying to get tithe money out of people?

 

The only problems that will be created in my marriage will be by people that think they have some athority from a magical being to tell my wife and I how to be a happy couple. I have never been more happy in my life with my wife. I know that my marriage to her was not some decision by God but by our decision and our love for each other, nothing more.

 

You are not to give any marriage conseling to my wife, if we need conseling we will see a professional.

 

======================================

I am so upset right now....... :angry:

 

My wife and I have not been fighting, we are very happy.

[crazy-tiger]

Whatta bastard....

 

That's an almost perfect example of "I'm right, you're wrong, now stfu and let me brainwash people"

 

 

 

You've done the right thing in trying to stop him "counseling" your wife... it's that kind of crap that contributed to my marriage failing.

[Checkmate]

Gaaah! I hate to say I told you so, but... This is what I was warning you about in another thread. Get away from this pastor/church! He's bad news. HE is the "wedge" that will divide you, and he's already setting the stage to blame YOU. Better act now, before it's too late.

 

P.S. - On one point I WILL agree with this pastor...STOP SENDING E-MAILS and STOP TRYING TO EXPLAIN YOUR UNBELIEF. The constant explaining reeks of insecurity and counter-evangelism. It's not necessary. You've made your point, now let it go. Just live your life as happily ever after as you are able.

[pitchu]

Mikefight, this must be terribly distressing for you. I think your response was strong and right.

 

Interesting, isn't it, that in fundy Christian sects the Man Is The Head Of The Household right up to the minute he refuses to enforce the pastor's dictates...?

[Checkmate]

Oh, and another thing, Mikefight (since I'm handing out unsolicited advice I may as well continue) your time would be best spent demonstrating to your wife that nothing has changed about you. Other than your lack of god-belief, you're the same good man she married.

 

Christians have this FEAR that unbelief equals SIN. Your wife expects you to suddenly sprout horns, a tail and begin sacrificing goats and young girls in an orgy of demented lust. That IS what Christians are told to expect from we god-less heathens, right?

 

So what she needs more than any explanation, is a DEMONSTRATION from you that ALL IS WELL. It may take a few months, but eventually she'll come to recognize that you're basically the same guy. You just don't have fairy tale baggage.

 

Stop being confrontational. Leave the pastor alone. You can't change him or them anyway. Just live well.

[Lycorth]

I agree - good response on your part, but just give him the brush-off and let him live in his deluded little bubble. It's apparent that he will do as all fervent Xians do and try to twist everything you say around and use it against you.

 

Fervent Xians are great for hypocrisy. It's ok for them to evangelize and talk about their beliefs, but you can't. They can write dozens of books and give hundreds of sermons on the dangers of Atheism or why they left Atheism for Xianity, but you can't say one word about why you left Xianity or talk about your Atheism, because it means you secretly want to be Xian again.

 

If anyone remembers the "discussions" many of us here have had with people like Pug, this can be seen in action. Only Xians can speak about what they believe, but those who do not believe (and especially those who left the faith) should just shut up and fade into the background. Fervent Xians think that only they have the truth and therefore only they should be permitted to express their views. They truly do believe their own lies and believe that they are a persecuted elite, constantly being oppressed but morally and intellectually superior to everyone else.

 

If you must say anything in response, just send him a polite email stating that his arrogant assumptions have only helped to reinforce why you have left Xianity and want no part of it anymore. That will (hopefully) tell him that, despite anything he says, you're not under his sway anymore.

 

Stuff like that usually throws most serious Xians for a loop.

[Eponymic]

Why would an atheist need to evangelize? Which I think is what you are trying to do. Why do you have this need to convince others? If there are no absolutes then the only thing that matters is what works? Is your wife becoming a better person these days? This email are the kinds of comments that are going to create problems in your family.....I think she gets the point....weeks ago....you don't believe and she isn't smart enough to get it right now....you are going to create a wedge in your marriage if you continue to press the point.....unless of coarse that is what you are trying to do?

 

It's a sad but true tell tale sign of ignorance and close mindedness when someone has poor diction & English skills. It reeks of the unwillingness, laziness, and overall arrogance that someone believes they don't need to master their own language. This is from a pastor and he's writing at a 9th grade level, and he has the audacity to claim he knows what God is all about. Sad.

 

Sorry, Mike, this email strikes me as a reason to question your motives.

 

Actually, I see something like that and I feel he's saying that to avoid his own insecurities.

 

Personally, I'm very interested to find out what the rest of the people you sent it to said about this e-mail.

 

As far as a touch of advice, I'd say be objective and realize that you're on the true road less travelled. You're a thinking human being now rather than a sheep. You are becoming the best person you can be. And that will only lead to better things for you and the people around you.

 

Cheers!

[Legion]

It's a sad but true tell tale sign of ignorance and close mindedness when someone has poor diction & English skills. It reeks of the unwillingness, laziness, and overall arrogance that someone believes they don't need to master their own language. This is from a pastor and he's writing at a 9th grade level, and he has the audacity to claim he knows what God is all about. Sad.

I've heard it said Eponymic that the way a person treats language is the way they treat their fellow man.

[Lupis Noctum]

I have to heartily agree with Checkmate on this, quit communicating with this rimjob.

 

You're like a recovering crack addict seeking the approval of his dealer for your decision to stop smoking crack. He's not going to be supportive, he's not going to suddenly stop selling crack, this is how he makes his living.

 

Do you really think that communicating with this asshole will bring anything but negative results? He's not going to see the light, leap from the pulpit and find himself a real job.

 

Spend your time more productively, talk to the manager of your local Wal-Mart about the virtues of shopping at K-Mart...

[Ouroboros]

I've heard it said Eponymic that the way a person treats language is the way they treat their fellow man.

Hmm... does that mean that I treat my fellow man as a confused and inconsistent mess, and that I kill him with my completely low-quality incomprehesible humor (or rather lack thereof)?

[Eponymic]

I've heard it said Eponymic that the way a person treats language is the way they treat their fellow man.

 

Very true.

 

Hmm... does that mean that I treat my fellow man as a confused and inconsistent mess, and that I kill him with my completely low-quality incomprehesible humor (or rather lack thereof)?

 

Actually, I think it means that you realize man is a confused and inconsistent mess, and therefore an easy target for low-brow humor.

[Gobbler]

The reason the doctrines don't change is because they are true.

 

Why would an atheist need to evangelize? Which I think is what you are trying to do. Why do you have this need to convince others?

 

How ironic is this statement! Isn't this exactly what pastors do every sunday? Trying to convince themselves and other sheep of the absurdity of their doctrines?!

[Mongo]

Mike,

 

When you deconvert, it is often not easy for victims of religion to realize that they are essentially victims of emotional abuse.

 

When we were xtian, many of us felt controlled, manipulated and accused of many things for which it was hard to understand our guilt. This is the basis of the many tools used to beat the flock.

 

Now that I view my past Pentecostal experiences in the light of emotional abuse, I have come to truly understand the utter genius of the metaphor of Jesus and the flock. The roll of the Pastor is essentially one of a sheep dog, barking, showing teeth and nipping any sheep with a mind to step outside the confines of the church, but "in love" never breaking the skin as is the case with a well trained dog.

 

Border Collies are very fast and you will be hard pressed to succeed in giving them the boot. The best you can do is ignore the Lord's dog or remove yourself from its presence.

 

As to email, well that is a lot like talking to a dog and since you are not the dog's master, you will have no effect.

 

Quite seriously Mike, abusive people see only the ends and for them the means is merely a choice of which tool is most effective.

 

Talking to your pastor is merely an exercise where the pastor uses various emotional tricks to make you feel guilty and possibly confuse you (obviously not working well ). Each failure is merely part of a feedback loop where the pastor talks to his wife, church elders (It is gossip but they don't call it that) and find a new angle of attack. Critical thinking beyond assessing his level of progress/success he is having with you does not apply. He is not thinking critically but only on how to confuse you and make you feel guilty.

 

Indeed, your pastor is probably getting high on his own holiness each time he battles the evil atheist that in his mind is you.

 

For your own benefit, do a search on emotional abuse and read up on what spouses do to each other. Many of these victims try to reason with their controlling and abusive spouses. Certainly the paradigms of marriage and church are different but the parallel is valid. At a minimum, it will be educational but also I think it could help you see these people in a different light.

 

On abuse I recommend Dr Irene's site.

On understanding how christians manipulate I recommend searching through The Skeptic's Dictionary starting with Cognitive Disonnance or Group think and read through related links.

 

Self education on why you don't believe and on the emotional experience of deconverting is truly your best friend.

 

Sure is a refreshing change from empty, guilt inducing advice like "Just pray through until you touch the hem of His garment brother" eh? Welcome to the wonderful world of freethought!

 

Mongo

[Purple]

Hi Mike, I havn't chimed in here before, but I am now. Been there done that, got the very crappy T-shirt.

 

I met with the pastor, when I left, even though everyone told me not to, he was sweet as pie to me, then when my husband got a hold of him he was a complete dick. Now, what do I want to share with you? First be open and honest with your wife, and make sure you ask her if she's ok, how is she handleing all this. Right now you need to be on her side, and her best friend. For me, the bigger a dick the pastor became the better it worked out for me, my marriage is still in tact 5 years later. (It's actaully more than 5 years now, but I forget exactly how long.) My husband is still a xian, although much more liberal than he was, and certainly not going to the same church.

 

I would look at this like any other crisis in your life, you can choose to make your wife your partner, share with her your feelings, let her be your confidant, and be hers. If you do this, the two of you will come out stronger. If you take others advice here, and from now on stop all communication with the pastor, anything he says or does will just make him look like a jerk.

 

I don't know if you would want to read it, but you can find my ex-testimony here. Purple's Testimony

[xild]

I like Purple's advice to be the best friend to your wife because certainly this pastor will not honor any type of boundary, even between a husband and wife.

 

These type of people feel they are allowed to involve themselves in your life, and where they get this silly notion is beyond me but I believe that couples, or families, for that matter, threaten the church. The church needs to be in control, it's from the top down. The church is in control of the men, the men are in control of the women, and down onto the children. I've said this in one other place in these forums but this is emasculating for men, that's why they say women should be submissive to their husbands, to give the men back some feeling of control, or dominance, after the church takes away their thinking ability.

 

Your relationship with your wife, and I know you know this, is sacred, between you and she. Make sure she knows you feel this way: whatever bond you have with her needs strengthening right about now, so pull tighter to her.

 

I saw this coming: nice job giving him back some of his own medicine. Don't feel bad, not for one second.

[xild]

Mike take note!

 

Mongo wrote:

Talking to your pastor is merely an exercise where the pastor uses various emotional tricks to make you feel guilty and possibly confuse you (obviously not working well ). Each failure is merely part of a feedback loop where the pastor talks to his wife, church elders (It is gossip but they don't call it that) and find a new angle of attack. Critical thinking beyond assessing his level of progress/success he is having with you does not apply. He is not thinking critically but only on how to confuse you and make you feel guilty.

 

Oh boy does this ever happen and if you've seen it in action, well...you know. We're seeing it in action through Mike but not the behind the scenes stuff that is most definitely going on.

 

I do understand, completely, what the people who are telling you to just stop communicating with this preacher are talking about. I think you did well, however, in drawing him out to the point that you got him, in email, to come right out and show you how he truly believes he's in control of your life to a large degree, that being a signifcant part of your marriage. I think Mike HAD to do that.

 

Now you can quietly sit back and enjoy your life. You've given him fair warning too so next time he crosses one of your boundaries you can punch him in the face with impunity--jUST KIDDING. But you can be even more direct, though calm, and keep telling him what you just did in the email. Just the way you said it was perfectly fine, too.

[mwc]

I'm not sure how to put this but watch out. This guy is trouble. Big time trouble. He will kill your marriage and blame you 100%. The only good thing is that you are aware that it is happening. Go back and take a look at my opening posts here. I got blind-sided. Some ass-hats got ahold of my wife and I became the devil incarnate. They told her I needed to be cast down with the pigs like in the story of the Prodigal Son so I could see the light and return to the fold. I was treated like shit because they told her it was a good idea...and I played right into it. I became the very thing they said I was (not that I would become). My wife became pregnant and miscarried. The reason? I became possessed with a demon and had sex with her at a vulnerable time. Yep. I killed our baby it seems.

 

I also learned that trying to keep your wife and these nuts apart is like holding a river apart with your hands. You can't and you look like an idiot while trying. You also end up drowning. My marriage is nothing...nothing...like it was before all this happened. Listen to the advice the others have given. Try not to confront these people (that's what ex-c is for). You will lose. Oh sure, you can best them on knowledge and reason but you will become the enemy. It happens in a heartbeat. I went from "friend" to "enemy" overnight and I never knew it...after 12 years of marriage (compared to knowing them for weeks or a few months). "They" and the almighty "Him" were more important than I was but I thought I could somehow compete. I wasn't even close.

 

I'm really not sure what I wanted to say. I have no idea how to help. I have plenty of advice on how to utterly devastate your marriage though. I guess that's what I'm offering. Avoid doing even some of the things I did and maybe you'll be alright. Maybe I'll come up with something a bit more on the constructive side a bit later on since this is kind of a downer. Sorry.

 

mwc

[xild]

Sorry that happend to you mwc...that's freaking evil, accuse you of causing the miscarriage. (There is not a fuming mad emoticon or I'd use it here--that story just makes me furious.)

 

Fortunately Mike's wife seems to be thinking about leaving the church. I hope it's true and not a trick the church put her up to an I can't help but feel suspicious until we hear for sure about her.

 

I did have something occur to me, Mike, in case you haven't considered it. I hope you will take precaution to keep whatever you would have private, private, such as the stuff you post on this website. Until you know for sure your wife is free of the church's will, and if you don't want your privacy shared, then make sure you keep your online business locked down tight.

[R. S. Martin]

I'm not sure if this is helpful because we were just two sisters who lived together. I think there are many parallels with marriage, though, so I will share it.

 

For some reason, my sister felt obligated to support me because we shared a home. She took that bond about as sacred as marriage. My "offense" (to the family and larger community) was getting higher education in order to find more fulfilling work. She knew more than anybody how desperately unhappy I was and how extremely hard I had tried submitting to the community's restrictions on me. She saw that school made me happier than anything else ever did. (That may be the reason I talk about school about as regularly and fondly as some people do about their kids and spouses.)

 

There was a time when she and I stood alone. She alone stood between me and the rest of our family, friends, and church. In a way, she got caught between a rock and a hard place. She drew heavily on her non-OOM friends at the time. She was very close to leaving, too. I had my new friends from school.

 

We were living in the heart of an OOM community. Eventually, I found a place to live closer to my school. It was only for several months. I moved out temporarily. Life was so much better here that I never ever wanted to go back again. I found a place to live permanently and moved all of my stuff out. We had many telephone conversations trying to remember what was whose and how to divide our things up. It was a peaceful procedure and we both felt satisfied with the results. We had been together fifteen years.

 

We've now been apart four and a half years. She's the person to whom I accidentally spilled the info that I do not really believe in the xian god. I feel like I never did but apparently living as though I believed was what counted. It took about six months for her to get over that. But it seems we are back in our relationship where we had been before I "spilled the beans."

 

She is closer to our parents and the rest of the family than she had been while we were living together. This was a gradual process that I had noticed before the spilled beans. I think it is only right because she (along with our other sisters) expends a lot of energy looking after our mother. She would probably be unable to do this if she retained her former level of loyalty to me.

 

Based on this experience, I believe that the exC with a Christian spouse is not the only person in the equation. If the Christian spouse does not feel a strong loyalty, the situation may be out of the exC's control. My sister had to make a conscious choice whose side to take. Had she not personally in her own heart of hearts made that decision, nothing I could have done would have prevented us from splitting. Had I treated her indecently, I am sure she would have left. Or sent me packing. Whatever, we could not have stayed together. But I treated her decently. What I am saying is that decent treatment alone will not do it. She, personally, had to feel convicted that it was her sacred duty to stand by me. That, and that alone, is what kept us together.

 

Mind you, she suffered a lot. People (family and community) never liked me. They only tolerated me because that is what you have to do to people who are born into your family and/or community. She chose to like me and be loyal to me early in our living together because she was convicted that a person should be loyal to her housemate. When I came out (she knew about it all along but not others) about my education, every negative nuance from the community regarding me cut her to the heart. And there were many those first few months. She could hardly show her face in the community. She quit her job at an old people's home that was owned and operated by OOM staff. She took a job babysitting for a Roman Catholic family in town. I was going to a modern Mennonite church at the time, and still a Christian more or less, so that worked out well.

 

I don't think a spouse can be more loyal than my sister was. Nor do I think a spouse can suffer more than my sister did when I left the OOM church. However, there is one major difference. The community did not see us as legally sanctioned to be together for life, there was no legal contract, and there were no children in the equation. Not even a joint bank account.

[Kurari]

This email are the kinds of comments that are going to create problems in your family.....I think she gets the point....weeks ago....you don't believe and she isn't smart enough to get it right now....you are going to create a wedge in your marriage if you continue to press the point.....unless of coarse that is what you are trying to do?

 

 

I say you show that part to your wife. I'm sure she'd LOVE to know his opinion of her.

 

And I agree with the others. This guy is a brainless fundy, he's never going to get it. So do not involve him or talk to him if you don't have to.

 

But now that he knows, do watch out if he tries to hook your wife further in.

[pandora]

I suggest not contacting anyone from that church from now on. It could become a horrible situation.

 

I have found that explaining why I did what I did to be fruitless, unless the person I'm speaking to is open-minded and not a typical Christian.

 

Since your wife is now considering your point of view, point her to all the things that made you walk away. Encourage her to look at other religions, and ask her what makes their experiences any less valid than Christianity. Encourage her to look at the absurdities in the Bible, especially the doctrine of hell and blood atonement (not to mention the Old Testament verses that condone horrible things in the name of God).

 

Deconversion is a painful process, and new deconverts often feel a need to debate with Christians, to show them the light, etc... but do this carefully and with tact. And only with those you feel that would truly listen to you and try to be empathetic WITHOUT preaching back at you... just true listeners. True Christians (of the evangelical and conservative bent) will not be rational and will not be able to understand where you are coming from.

 

Good luck... we're here for you!

[panglossian]

I would show your wife the insult that pastor gave her....I think that should be enough to convince anyone...If I was your wife and read that I would go up to that p[astor and deck him one.

[mwc]

Sorry that happend to you mwc...that's freaking evil, accuse you of causing the miscarriage. (There is not a fuming mad emoticon or I'd use it here--that story just makes me furious.)

Thanks. I was accused of that and more. I was basically pre-accused of doing things that these (mainly women) former spouses had done (like get drunk and burn down the house...I don't drink but still). It led to a lot of self-fulfilling "prophecies" because I was so angry that I didn't see what was going on at the time. When I found the emails later I knew I'd be "had" and it made things worse.

 

Fortunately Mike's wife seems to be thinking about leaving the church. I hope it's true and not a trick the church put her up to an I can't help but feel suspicious until we hear for sure about her.

Yes, this is good news. She seems to be resisting the little birds whispering in her ear and actually appears to be interested in her husband. I won't say it's a trick, but based on my personal experience, I'd be cautious. I know that information, extremely personal information, went beyond my wife on up the chain to people I'd rather not have it and it was turned around and used against me in the "battle" for her (and my) soul.

 

What I do know is that if these kind of people do get a foothold in your life that they hold no accountability. They can do as the please and leave your life in tatters and there is nothing you can do about it. They'll just move on to the next "victim" and leave you to pick up the pieces and not give a second thought about the life/lives they destroyed. Alls fair.

 

It's this game that turned me from a simple ex-xian into an anti-xian.

 

mwc

[xild]

Tell me about it, mwc. They did it to me too--hurt me terribly and then blamed everything that could possibly be blamed on a teenager on me. You'd think I was evil incarnate. Almost 30 years later there are people in that system who still believe I am to blame for the problems of children who go wrong, children who have never even met me.

 

So I know where you are coming from. And while there are always a large number of truly fine people in these communities--people you hate walking away from--these churches also seem to be a haven for nuts.

[mwc]

Tell me about it, mwc. They did it to me too--hurt me terribly and then blamed everything that could possibly be blamed on a teenager on me. You'd think I was evil incarnate. Almost 30 years later there are people in that system who still believe I am to blame for the problems of children who go wrong, children who have never even met me.

Ahhh...see? That just sucks. I think it's almost worse for some of us since we've been on both sides too.

 

So I know where you are coming from. And while there are always a large number of truly fine people in these communities--people you hate walking away from--these churches also seem to be a haven for nuts.

Yeah. I agree. Which is why, when I read about people like Mike and his wife, that I really want it to turn out differently for once.

 

mwc