currentchristian Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Ahhh, pornography. When I was a boy, in my entire world there was one store I knew of that sold Playboy magazine. That was it. Just Playboy. Well, it's a whole new world when it comes to pornography. It's everywhere. We know porn is enticing and interesting. We know that few are immune from receiving pleasure by looking at sexually alluring men and/or women. But what do we really know about the impact upon our psyches, our children and our culture of the mainstreaming of pornography? What do those of you who are ex-Christian think about the porn industry and pornography? What do the Christians here think? What do the atheists who were never Christian or theist think? Attached is an article from abcnews.com, posted today in reference to an episode of "Nightline" that airs tonight. Any thoughts on XXXChurch.com? -CC in MA ***************** The Porn Pastors: XXXChurch.com They're on a Crusade to Bring Salvation to an Unlikely Industry, but Their Biggest Critics Are Christians By MARTIN BASHIR Feb. 2, 2007 — The American evangelical church, in its various denominations, has boldly sent missionaries to every corner of the world. But according to a team of evangelists based in Michigan, there's one industry in the homeland that's been largely ignored by the church. It's the booming business of pornography. "I think the American church for a long time just kinda stuck their head in the spiritual sand on the whole issue of porn," says so-called "Porn Pastor" JR Mahon. "As far as Christianity here [in the U.S.] goes, we've got a lot of work to do." Five years ago, Craig Gross, also a seminary-trained evangelist, created an online fellowship called XXXChurch.com. The fellowship's title was designed to attract attention, and it was originally intended as a resource for Christians who were struggling with pornography. Trouble is -- they came to their own, and their own received them not. 'Our Biggest Critics Are Christians' "The adverse reactions came quick and came heavy, and to this day my inbox is filled with people that can't stand us, that hate us, that wish us to go to hell," explains Mahon. "Our biggest critics are Christians." Some Christians may be even more critical now. "Nightline" traveled with the fellowship to the world's biggest porn convention in Las Vegas last month. The annual Adult Expo boasts two halls full of various exhibits ranging from the latest prosthetic devices, to hardcore high-definition films and handcuffs covered in pink ersatz fur. The XXX Church set up camp, somewhat sheepishly, between the male gay section and the so-called Bang Bus -- a tired old minivan which is used to film sex scenes that are then sold via the Internet. 'Jesus Loves Porn Stars' The Porn Pastors, as they call themselves, do not preach in open-air sermons at the convention, but instead seek to engage porn "delegates" in conversation and then hand out Bibles, which proclaim "Jesus Loves Porn Stars." And they are adamant that they are simply obeying the great commission at the end of Matthew's Gospel to "go and make disciples of all nations." "We've got to meet them where they're at. That's the great commission," explains Gross. "I think that God is using people that work with Triple X Church to carry about his message, to carry out his plan." And they believe that by giving out a free copy of the New Testament, somebody will eventually see the light. "The Bible says the Word won't return void, so we've got to pray," says Mahon. "I prayed as I unloaded those Bibles in the booth before anyone got here. I prayed, 'God do a miracle in these peoples' lives.'" 'Porn Is Easy' They will need a miracle to stop this road show -- the business of pornography is now worth at least $13 billion a year. It drives Web traffic around the world and is at the forefront of digital technology. The Porn Pastors are like evangelists crying out in the wilderness…but they believe that pornography is a serious danger, that it is delusional for men and disrespectful to women. "It's not real. I mean the big deal is simple. It's not real," argues Mahon. "It's not a real relationship between a man and a woman. Everything the porn industry shells out to the world is designed to tell you what sex should look like, and how it should smell, and who you do it with and how you do it and when you do it. The reality is -- it is not reality." By creating a fantasy, the XXX Church pastors believe that pornography makes people ill-equipped for the challenge of sustaining a real relationship. As Craig Gross explains: "Porn is a lot easier than sex especially now with the Internet. You can get it when and where you want it…and so what we see is people resort to the pornography, even when they are married and they could have a great sexual relationship, well, porn is easy." 'There's No Respect' The Porn Pastors reserve their strongest condemnation for the way they say women are treated. "There's no respect. To think that these are somebody's daughters. My pastor from my old church, Brian, is here with us. He says that these women are treated like dogs," says Gross. And Mahon concurs. "Just look around. Look at the devices and the machines -- machines that are designed to do certain things to women. Yeah, it's degrading. There's no doubt about it." But the porn industry maintains that it has the most stringent health and safety rules, that nobody is ever degraded, and that the industry is just another legitimate form of adult entertainment. They also point out that an increasing number of porn stars are now migrating to the mainstream entertainment -- like Jenna Jameson and Stormy Daniels, who appeared (perhaps ironically) in "The 40 Year Old Virgin." Searching for Salvation The XXX Church pastors reject these arguments and are determined to challenge the juggernaut of porn even as it thunders out of the shadows and into the mainstream. In addition to their presence at the Adult Expo, Mahon and Gross also tour universities where they debate with their philosophical nemesis: the legendary porn actor Ron Jeremy. They have become good friends with Jeremy but he remains undeterred, having starred in 1,800 porn movies…and counting. However, the Porn Pastors say that they are seeing converts -- people turning away from the sex industry and finding salvation. Gross recalls one such testimony. "One of the girls that we helped out of the porn industry last year, she had to have four surgeries on her body because of the pornography and the abuse. She actually went into prostitution at one of the places here in Nevada. And I thought, 'man, I can't believe that.' And she said, 'What are you talking about? It's so much easier to do prostitution than pornography.'" Since her conversion to Christianity she no longer appears in pornography nor does she work as a prostitute. Meanwhile, the Porn Pastors continue to hand out Bibles and engage people in discussion, in between the relentless sounds of ecstasy that dominate the Adult Expo. Watch the story on "Nightline" tonight at 11:35 p.m. Copyright © 2007 ABC News Internet Ventures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CBenjaminHaag Posted October 1, 2007 Share Posted October 1, 2007 Any thoughts on XXXChurch.com? To respond belatedly to the original post, here are my thoughts. 1) I suspect that it is simply another attempt to convince the skeptical, the critical, and the largely indifferent that this church is fundamentally different than the ones that the Unbelieving World most likely encountered, "not uptight," yadda yadda. Which it may well be, on the surface, but the essence is the same: "believe in the loving god who died for your sins, or he will fuck you up for all eternity." 2) Like many numb-nutted attempts to "reach unbelievers where they are," it is likely run by people who are so blindly emboldended with their own sense of righteousness that they haven't the slightest clue about how idiotic they look. 3) Given the guilt repression with which modern Christianity seems to teach its adherents to approach human sexuality, I think that it is highly likely that the vitriol with which so many Christians condemn pornography is nothing more than a barely disguised fascination and excitement with it, which of course most Good Christians must keep as hidden as possible. Hence the spectacle of fundamentalist blowhard fuckwads like Ted Haggard hitting the news because of nocturnal quests for blowjobs and crystal meth. 4) I am pretty sure that "currentchristian," whoever he or she in fact is, is simply another who anonymously trolls sites such as this in a too-pathetic-to-be-arrrogant attempt to reach those ungoldly, angry athests and agnostics and pagans with the Love Of Jeeezus. Benjamin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandora Posted October 2, 2007 Share Posted October 2, 2007 Some (most) porn is degrading to women. There isn't enough porn with real bodies of varying sizes and shapes that isn't considered a fetish. There isn't much diversity and I think young men raised on porn will have an unrealistic expectation of real women and real sex. Porn will always be the "ultimate" sexuality for some guys who abuse pornography. All that said, I do think there is a time and place for respectful porn designed to enhance sexuality. And there's nothing wrong with getting off on a fantasy now and then, either... but to use it chronically when you are in a relationship is unhealthy if you ask me. I mainly have a problem with porn that is degrading to women, abusive, or unrealistic. I think some men use it to replace true sexuality and as a result, can never have a healthy sexual relationship with a female because of it. and it's very sad that this kind of porn becomes what many guys think sex should be like. I also have a problem with how I hear the sex industry treats women. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuaiDan Posted October 2, 2007 Share Posted October 2, 2007 Some (most) porn is degrading to women. Is that necessarily a bad thing? It is, afterall, acting. Unless it's some kind of mafia kidnapping and extortion (which some porn certainly is). The women are acting as though being degraded. I think this might provide an outlet to some men who have fantasies of humiliating women who might otherwise act out these fantasies by way of rape. So the question is whether this kind of degrading porn provides an outlet for or exacerbates such impulses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted October 2, 2007 Share Posted October 2, 2007 When I was a boy, in my entire world there was one store I knew of that sold Playboy magazine. That was it. Just Playboy. Well, it's a whole new world when it comes to pornography. It's everywhere. That just didn't make sense. "It's everywhere" and the phrase before just said the store only had one magazine? oh, I see, that's how it used to be, but now we have more magazines than before. Which is true, but I must say, I do not see pornography everywhere? I'm not even sure what stores around here carry any porn-magazines... actually I do remeber one place that has it, but it's not close by. I remember as a kid in Sweden that these papers were in every store, but I don't see them in the stores at all, or even at the gas stations... they're completely gone. I don't see much on TV either. I think it's less porn now because of the culture change in this country. It is frowned upon and disliked, and it's more online than before, so I must say I disagree that it's everywhere. Maybe you see it so much because you look for it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhampir Posted October 2, 2007 Share Posted October 2, 2007 I remember stores that used to sell porn now only sell 'Maxim' or some other quasi porn garbage. In fact, compared to when I was little, I can't find any place around where I live that sells porn anymore. As to Pandora's comment, I second Huai Dan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandora Posted October 2, 2007 Share Posted October 2, 2007 Some (most) porn is degrading to women. Is that necessarily a bad thing? It is, afterall, acting. Unless it's some kind of mafia kidnapping and extortion (which some porn certainly is). The women are acting as though being degraded. I think this might provide an outlet to some men who have fantasies of humiliating women who might otherwise act out these fantasies by way of rape. So the question is whether this kind of degrading porn provides an outlet for or exacerbates such impulses. I'm not so sure the women are always acting, that's where we differ. I think it's more accurate to say they let themselves get abused. I would see your point if I agreed with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuaiDan Posted October 2, 2007 Share Posted October 2, 2007 I would see your point if I agreed with you. Well ain't that stating the obvious........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skiergirl24 Posted October 2, 2007 Share Posted October 2, 2007 The only thing I have a problem with is the way the women are treated. I have seen a lot of porn flicks. A fair amount of the time the women are treated as objects. I don't mean they are hit or hurt in any way, but most films end with a man er...finishing on the woman's face. That is degrading. And I know, or at least, I have read, that a lot of women in porn were raped and/or molested as kids. I think it is very sad. Plus, I think some of the films are a riot. I mean who has boobs the size and shape of large water balloons? And who really sqeals like a baby during the act? Seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted October 2, 2007 Share Posted October 2, 2007 I've read about women that started their own porn websites and made mucho money. There was an article in WSJ a couple of years ago about that. This stay home mom that started her own and after a year made so much her husband didn't have to work. In those cases it wasn't any forced or degrading, since she made the choice on her own. But I'm not saying women is getting used or that it is not an issue, generally speaking. I also heard about an organization, made by the women in that industry, that are lobbying against laws ruining their business. I'm not sure which one, but one of the magazine (Hustler?) is owned and run by the daughter of the founder, which is kind of odd if they're abused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trashy Posted October 2, 2007 Share Posted October 2, 2007 Porn is and always has been masturbation material. I can't imagine any one (except perhaps stupid adolescents) viewing porn and thinking that all sex is like that. And for anyone who does, most will have their expectations severely adjusted the first time they get some. I'm sure that some of the women involved are being taken advantage of, but if they weren't doing porn they'd probably be stripping or prostituting, so I'm not sure how porn is making much of a difference in that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perianwalsh Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 I 'm not so sure the women are always acting, that's where we differ. I think it's more accurate to say they let themselves get abused no doubt there's such woman out there,but i felt the thrive of pornography increase the chance of victims being victimised by these porn industry. but i think that child porn is unpardonable-to me at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhampir Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 There's abuse in every industry-- the larger the more prevalent. It was always strange to me how such a thing as porn is constantly judged as wrong by and large based on a set of things you (and by 'you' I mean, well, not you specifically) wouldn't do or would hate yourself for, when there's never been a consensus on what constitutes demeaning, or that there's a problem with demeaning, or even being abused when one consents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sokudo Ningyou Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 Some (most) porn is degrading to women. There isn't enough porn with real bodies of varying sizes and shapes that isn't considered a fetish. There isn't much diversity and I think young men raised on porn will have an unrealistic expectation of real women and real sex. Porn will always be the "ultimate" sexuality for some guys who abuse pornography. All that said, I do think there is a time and place for respectful porn designed to enhance sexuality. And there's nothing wrong with getting off on a fantasy now and then, either... but to use it chronically when you are in a relationship is unhealthy if you ask me. I mainly have a problem with porn that is degrading to women, abusive, or unrealistic. I think some men use it to replace true sexuality and as a result, can never have a healthy sexual relationship with a female because of it. and it's very sad that this kind of porn becomes what many guys think sex should be like. I also have a problem with how I hear the sex industry treats women. If unrealistic body types makes for degrading to women, count comics into that, as well as advertising, television, and the movies. Honestly, body image is always going to be unrealistic when it comes to media. Porn is no different. And the women who actively take part in continuing that image know it, or they wouldn't be merrily making money off of it. If there were larger, size 10 women with generous hips and a soft waist, there would be no multi-million dollar porn industry; the fantasy is not, for most people, of a realistic, shapely woman. Granted, even when it's consensual, some porn is really off-the-wall and disturbing as hell. But when is it ever really "respectful" except when it's softcore? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandora Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 Maybe I'm too idealistic, but I believe that changing the culture from the top down would change people's attitudes. It might take a generation or few, but if people are influenced by the media, then it logically follows they could be influenced by images in the media. I'm of two minds on the issue. I think most guys are mature enough to handle porn and not realize it's not real life... but what about the women abused (even if they are a small minority... but I know not all porn actresses are happy with their jobs) and the men who can't grow up? It's not for me to judge, and I don't, but I just feel for the women who are affected negatively by this industry. I don't care if you watch it... and I like it sometimes myself. I guess I've seen cases where it has become an unhealthy obsession for some people... and I wonder if it's getting so prominent that it will become an even bigger problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoomonkey Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 I'm of two minds on the issue. I think most guys are mature enough to handle porn and not realize it's not real life... but what about the women abused (even if they are a small minority... but I know not all porn actresses are happy with their jobs) and the men who can't grow up? It's not for me to judge, and I don't, but I just feel for the women who are affected negatively by this industry. I don't care if you watch it... and I like it sometimes myself. I guess I've seen cases where it has become an unhealthy obsession for some people... and I wonder if it's getting so prominent that it will become an even bigger problem. Well, Pandora... I can't imagine how the unrealistic body images would negatively affect a woman like you Yes - shameless, pointless flirt, but flirting is always fun and I can't help myself... Bodies do come in different forms, some more desirable than others. The difference is that "desirable" is always determined by the person doing the desiring. Just as there are men who want only a woman with washboard abs and enhanced breasts, there are men who are exclusively interested in BBWs. I am in good shape, as is my wife - and in most cases, I prefer fit sexual partners. It is what attracts me. But, being fit doesn't mean "everybody wants me". I do well with playmates, but there are plenty of women who aren't interested in me for whatever reason... Body type being an issue for some... Some women really want the big teddy bear type men who have a belly... I really wish most women would embrace the truth that everyone is going to have people who find them beautiful for who they are - and not judge them for what the media says they should be. Yes, media has a strong influence - as evidenced by the increasing number of "bisexual" women in the world... (I love bisexual women, but how many of them are that way because it is pushed so strong by the GGW videos?) But the media can not completely control the interests of people. I think media obsession with certain body types is forgivable if women would stop reacting to it like Pavlov's dog and learn to first love themselves, and then simply appreciate the differences of others... That - and if men stopped being pigs, but I highly doubt I can pull that one off myself. Pornography is just like any vice - it can capture you and become a problem. There is no doubt that people have lost jobs, homes, family, and even some part of their sanity to it. But like any other vice, it can be controlled. Just as alcohol can have victims - so can porn. But also like alcohol, porn can be viewed and used responsibly. I am at work - and I know this post is disjointed because I am typing in between projects... My point is I agree with you in that for some it is a problem. It certainly can be something that obsesses some, victimizes others and - like anything else - has a very ugly side to it. But that is no different than any vice in the world. As for the "porn preachers" they would do just as much good setting up at a beer tasters convention. Spoomonkey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandora Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 Aw, shucks. Thanks. I don't think your flirt was pointless... I think you were buttering me up for what you were about to say. You make some good points, I admit. I guess I just get worried when the ideal form becomes the only thing that can get a man off... because unless they're Brad Pitt or Johnny Depp, they're going to get awfully lonely and a lot of wonderful women who really are beautiful (but maybe a size 8 instead of 4) will get lonely too. Or it concerns me when I hear the stories of the women who were in this industry. I guess that is their problem though... to each his or her own. People have to deal with the consequences of their actions. I get parental and protective sometimes. I definitely agree porn can be used responsibly. I am thinking of the more extreme porn and porn addicts when I write. Luckily, I'm married to someone who finds me beautiful as I am (I'm not fit for sure), and he finds me attractive and sexy for more than just my appearance. We use porn together sometimes, and I know he uses it in his free time (I do too). As long as it doesn't take away from his desire for me or make him expect more out of me, I don't care. Maybe good guys like that are more common than I think... but I've been around some real assholes. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoomonkey Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 Maybe good guys like that are more common than I think... Nah - we're pretty rare Spoomonkey PS - Your hubby sounds like a great guy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuaiDan Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 Bodies do come in different forms, some more desirable than others. The difference is that "desirable" is always determined by the person doing the desiring. Just as there are men who want only a woman with washboard abs and enhanced breasts, there are men who are exclusively interested in BBWs. I am in good shape, as is my wife - and in most cases, I prefer fit sexual partners. It is what attracts me. Exactly. I make sacrifices and work hard to stay fit. I don't think it's too much to ask my partner do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldblackeyes Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 So christians hate porn because its direspectful to women. Let me just get out my Bible 1 Corinthians 34-35 says women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.If they want to enquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. Want more? jost go here http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/women/long.html Hmmm Hypocrisy? from a christian, who'd have thought it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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