truth Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 Okay, so some of you may have read my post before about me talking with the woman pastor who is a friend of my aunt. This past six months my life has kind of turned upside down, I once knew what I wanted out of life and thought I was on track.. then I realized I was misreable and kind of tossed everything including my faith. My faith was the last thing to go however, I was clinging onto it durning the terrible times.. but never found solace when I really really needed it. So my grandmother dies, my very religious very faithfull grandma who was also my favorite gran. I am confronted head on with religion, spirituality and what happens when we die, which I was already struggling with when this happened. I wasn't really praying anymore at this time, but this day.. I really did not want to go up to the hospital to see my grandmother suffering in her last hours. I didn't think I had the strength. I somehow found the strength to go, I say God if you are real you better prove yourself to me. I didn't ask for help or anything. I go up there, my aunt is there with the nurse.. her breathing had changed dramatically since the day before. The nurse leaves and I sit with my aunt and talk fo a bit. A little while latter I see this blonde woman come into the room, not sure if she is in the right place.. anyhow it turns out.. she's my aunts friend who is also a pastor.. I have heard of her before but haven't met her. I suppose I was always curious about her, since in my church woman were kind of nothing when it came to church leadership or politics, as well as a sore spot for me even durning the hight of believing. I somehow rank running into her, as well coinsidence that my aunt called her and she came to my grandmother death bed, and was actually with her when she passed.. to perhaps waht if I am wrong and there is a God and hell. I just want to know the truth what ever that is. So we went out for coffee, talked about where I was coming from, and where I am now. She was very supportive and respectful of the process and where I am. She said she wouldn't bug me again, that if I wanted to talk to call her that she would love to talk again if I wanted to. I said I really didn't know what I wanted, that I wanted to think some more. I have been grapalling with my spirtiual encounters that I have had in the past.. and really it is the one thing that I can't let go of at this time. I emailed her some big questions/issues that I have with xianity.. so she called me and said do you want to go out for coffee, please don't make me answer thease questions by email..lol... so we ended up going out for coffee and talking more. She is really good to talk to, and open minded and not judgmental. She did however encourage me to read apologetic stuff.. just to balance out my readings.. I am reading a lot of apostate type stuff..as well as atheistic and humanistic stuff. I looked at a couple of websites and was completly freaking overwhelmened, oh and reading some of the stuff just made me really angry too. She lent me two little books, which she said weren't that good and really that I was above or beyond what the books had to offer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluewizard Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 I never read apologetic type stuff since i believed but it seems that atheism and agnosticism are the things that if you get into them you're likely to stay as one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin webmdave Posted February 5, 2007 Admin Share Posted February 5, 2007 Reading both sides of any of these things is beneficial to an overall education. I highly recommend it. In fact, if you become thoroughly familiar with arguments from both sides, it will make your final position stronger. There are, however, literally thousands of apologetic books out there. Religion, apparently, needs many , many books to help keep people in the faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taphophilia Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 I'm very impressed with her. She sounds like a genuine human being, so far. I would suggest reading apologetic stuff too so that you can make an informed decision. However, a lot of the apologetic stuff is ridiculous. I'd go with John Shelby Spong. He's not as hard to take as the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhampir Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 Shelby Spong is pretty good as far as apologetics goes, but then again, his views are rather radical compared to mainstream chrisitianity. As it happens, it was a Shelby Spong book that almost got me kicked out at home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smellincoffee Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 I don't do a lot of apologetics reading, but I do listen to sermons by Ravi Zacharias, who does a lot of apologetics work. When I first came here, another user led me to him: I've used Ravi to "cut my teeth" on counter-apologetics. His website is RZIM.org. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StewartP Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 When I was a christian a read McDowells "Questions that demand an answer" and Schaeffer's "Escape from Reason" This was 20 years ago mind. I thought they were both excellent books and 100% spot on. I'd like to read them both again now, to see how they scan to more skpetical, jaundiced eyes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exbeliever Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 I read a lot of apologetics in seminary and used to consider myself a decent apologist. I would come to sites like these just to debate things. There are some good, thoughtful apologists out there. Unfortunately, the better the apologist, the harder it is to understand what they are saying. Right now, I would say the best are Alvin Plantinga, Richard Swineburn, and William Lane Craig. Like I said, though, they aren't very accessible if you don't have a pretty good background. Atheist stuff is a lot harder to find. There are not a lot of popular atheist works that I would recommend. They tend to either rely too much on their own testimony or make simplistic, fallacy-laden arguments (this is especially true when an atheist who is trained in science attempts to make philosophical arguments; I won't name names). Probably, you best bet is to read apologetic literature and compare it to this online source. Try the search feature and type in whatever apologist you are reading and it will come up with reviews, arguments, etc. Of course, some articles are better than others, but it is a nice resource if you use discretion. Yea, so the dilemma is you either choose a shit apologist who is easily understood or a good one who you have to spend a lot of time on. It's all good fun, though. Enjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 I'd agree with exbeliever, except I've only heard of Plantingas arguments and I've never read anything by Richard Swineburn. I do know Craig, and his stuff is pretty good. I wouldn't consider any apologist "good" except that they are more intellectual than most. Francis Collins seems to be a new one, I read through his new book. It's all right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 Christianity, and more importantly, the Bible, are absolutely insane. You might as well believe in Magic Elves in the Woods, who love you and hate you, and will kill yoy for all etenity if you don't worship their Magic Unicorn. Don't waste a second of your life reading any apologetcis for this rediculous Bull SHit. It was a lie. Expose the lie to your Pastor Friend, Don't get Fooled Agains for gawd's sake. Okay, so some of you may have read my post before about me talking with the woman pastor who is a friend of my aunt. This past six months my life has kind of turned upside down, I once knew what I wanted out of life and thought I was on track.. then I realized I was misreable and kind of tossed everything including my faith. My faith was the last thing to go however, I was clinging onto it durning the terrible times.. but never found solace when I really really needed it. So my grandmother dies, my very religious very faithfull grandma who was also my favorite gran. I am confronted head on with religion, spirituality and what happens when we die, which I was already struggling with when this happened. I wasn't really praying anymore at this time, but this day.. I really did not want to go up to the hospital to see my grandmother suffering in her last hours. I didn't think I had the strength. I somehow found the strength to go, I say God if you are real you better prove yourself to me. I didn't ask for help or anything. I go up there, my aunt is there with the nurse.. her breathing had changed dramatically since the day before. The nurse leaves and I sit with my aunt and talk fo a bit. A little while latter I see this blonde woman come into the room, not sure if she is in the right place.. anyhow it turns out.. she's my aunts friend who is also a pastor.. I have heard of her before but haven't met her. I suppose I was always curious about her, since in my church woman were kind of nothing when it came to church leadership or politics, as well as a sore spot for me even durning the hight of believing. I somehow rank running into her, as well coinsidence that my aunt called her and she came to my grandmother death bed, and was actually with her when she passed.. to perhaps waht if I am wrong and there is a God and hell. I just want to know the truth what ever that is. So we went out for coffee, talked about where I was coming from, and where I am now. She was very supportive and respectful of the process and where I am. She said she wouldn't bug me again, that if I wanted to talk to call her that she would love to talk again if I wanted to. I said I really didn't know what I wanted, that I wanted to think some more. I have been grapalling with my spirtiual encounters that I have had in the past.. and really it is the one thing that I can't let go of at this time. I emailed her some big questions/issues that I have with xianity.. so she called me and said do you want to go out for coffee, please don't make me answer thease questions by email..lol... so we ended up going out for coffee and talking more. She is really good to talk to, and open minded and not judgmental. She did however encourage me to read apologetic stuff.. just to balance out my readings.. I am reading a lot of apostate type stuff..as well as atheistic and humanistic stuff. I looked at a couple of websites and was completly freaking overwhelmened, oh and reading some of the stuff just made me really angry too. She lent me two little books, which she said weren't that good and really that I was above or beyond what the books had to offer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 A couple of additions to my last reply. Don't let her play YOU for the sucker. That is exactly what she is doing. (Pretending like she actually gives a shit about you. All she cares about is whether she gets you to believe the Bull SHit again) Also, fucking DEMAND that she address your questions in EMAIL and in WRITING. That is FAR more challenging for her, AND she won't be able to manipulate you as well. Okay, so some of you may have read my post before about me talking with the woman pastor who is a friend of my aunt. This past six months my life has kind of turned upside down, I once knew what I wanted out of life and thought I was on track.. then I realized I was misreable and kind of tossed everything including my faith. My faith was the last thing to go however, I was clinging onto it durning the terrible times.. but never found solace when I really really needed it. So my grandmother dies, my very religious very faithfull grandma who was also my favorite gran. I am confronted head on with religion, spirituality and what happens when we die, which I was already struggling with when this happened. I wasn't really praying anymore at this time, but this day.. I really did not want to go up to the hospital to see my grandmother suffering in her last hours. I didn't think I had the strength. I somehow found the strength to go, I say God if you are real you better prove yourself to me. I didn't ask for help or anything. I go up there, my aunt is there with the nurse.. her breathing had changed dramatically since the day before. The nurse leaves and I sit with my aunt and talk fo a bit. A little while latter I see this blonde woman come into the room, not sure if she is in the right place.. anyhow it turns out.. she's my aunts friend who is also a pastor.. I have heard of her before but haven't met her. I suppose I was always curious about her, since in my church woman were kind of nothing when it came to church leadership or politics, as well as a sore spot for me even durning the hight of believing. I somehow rank running into her, as well coinsidence that my aunt called her and she came to my grandmother death bed, and was actually with her when she passed.. to perhaps waht if I am wrong and there is a God and hell. I just want to know the truth what ever that is. So we went out for coffee, talked about where I was coming from, and where I am now. She was very supportive and respectful of the process and where I am. She said she wouldn't bug me again, that if I wanted to talk to call her that she would love to talk again if I wanted to. I said I really didn't know what I wanted, that I wanted to think some more. I have been grapalling with my spirtiual encounters that I have had in the past.. and really it is the one thing that I can't let go of at this time. I emailed her some big questions/issues that I have with xianity.. so she called me and said do you want to go out for coffee, please don't make me answer thease questions by email..lol... so we ended up going out for coffee and talking more. She is really good to talk to, and open minded and not judgmental. She did however encourage me to read apologetic stuff.. just to balance out my readings.. I am reading a lot of apostate type stuff..as well as atheistic and humanistic stuff. I looked at a couple of websites and was completly freaking overwhelmened, oh and reading some of the stuff just made me really angry too. She lent me two little books, which she said weren't that good and really that I was above or beyond what the books had to offer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twincats Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 A couple of additions to my last reply. Don't let her play YOU for the sucker. That is exactly what she is doing. (Pretending like she actually gives a shit about you. All she cares about is whether she gets you to believe the Bull SHit again) Also, fucking DEMAND that she address your questions in EMAIL and in WRITING. That is FAR more challenging for her, AND she won't be able to manipulate you as well. Mick has a point; someone who feels that they are more persuasive in person (like pastors who tend to excel in public speaking ) will press for face-to-face meetings and one who writes well will opt for written discourse. Give yourself the advantage whenever you can! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth Posted February 9, 2007 Author Share Posted February 9, 2007 Thanks for the replies, I haven't checked them out yet, have been busy this week.. will google them latter tonight. Thanks for the advice about the pastor, I really do feel loved by you all. I really don't worry about her trying to play me for a sucker or the like. She is of a different breed of the typical pastor. Okay yes of corse she is going to try to get me to believe again.. that is kind of a given. She is very respectful and is not argumentative. I do believe she truly does care, not sure exactly why whether it be she has been a good friend of my aunts for a long time, or just sees me as someone who she thinks she can help. For so long I just accepted everything as the truth, and now have torn it all down. I am examining everything now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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