I Think It Was Some Kind Of Test Or Trick

[Mikefight]

In a previous thread I asked for things an atheist can do that an Xian cannot do. My wife asked me this question. So I gave her ever answer in the forum. She had a response for each one. Most of them were:

my thoughts in ()

 

1. I can do that even as a Christian. (Not if you follow the Bible)

2. I don't want to do that. (Not the point)

3. Most Christians do that. (Hypocrites)

4. I don't see you doing that. (Said you CAN do that, not you have to)

5. I don't care about that. (Again, not the point)

 

I did not even discuss it with her. I simple said "okay."

 

I think her women’s group put the idea in her head that there is no good reason to leave the church. Even though I think somewhere deep inside she really wants to leave. She has lots of questions, but every time I give her an answer she argues about it.

 

I am not going to talk about religion anymore with her. I will let her come to me. She is not ready to lose her comfort zone. I am not going to meet with ex-pastor anymore.

 

I read the book he gave me, it was funny. It was a Christian writer that wrote about why evolution was invalid. He did not even know what evolution was. He described things that had nothing to do with evolution, and then wrote "This is nonsense."

 

It saddens me that people read these books to get information on evolution and science when there are books by actual scientist that would give them the truth. I guess people who really want to know take the time to learn the truth. Others think they know about something. So much so they write a book that is full of wrong information and misleads all who trust the author.

 

It just seems common sense to me to read a book on biology written by biologist, not a preacher.

Thanks for all the responses. I will keep you posted.

[Legion]

I am not going to talk about religion anymore with her. I will let her come to me. She is not ready to lose her comfort zone. I am not going to meet with ex-pastor anymore.

That sounds like wisdom to me Mikefight. If I were you I would give her plenty of room, lots of space and time. I wouldn't press the issue.

 

As for the ex-pastor, engaging him sounds like a waste of time.

[neverclear5]

Mate, the only reason to leave christianity is that it isn't true. If it was true then there could be no reason whatsoever to leave. If it's false theres no reason to stay.

[xild]

I'm so angry with myself right now I could

 

That should be the question to fill in the blank, for me,

 

I'm so angry I don't know what to say, Mike, except, I should have seen through this common ploy, "What can you DO as a non christian that you cannot do as a Christian. Especially when the the doubt most definitely crossed my mind. I guess I was just too hopeful for you, I didn't want to actually USE my mind; instead I got all emotional on you. I am sorry. I was in a similar church for a lot longer than you. I didn't help you.

 

You are so right. It's a trick; like everything else they teach and do to their members.

[white_raven23]

*sigh*

 

Interesting isn't it? That christians are trained and encouraged to "argue" in this fashion by first feigning curiosity?

 

It's an affront to the hope of seeing someone else freed.

 

I have one last thought.....if ever your wife starts in with another "questionable question" look her right in the eye. Tell her you love her. And if she really and truly wants to understand your path.... hand her a book (keep it simple, don't hand her Dawkins or Harris). Tell her if she's going to read it, read it for herself and that you have no intention of keeping track as to whether or not she's read it.

 

Like it or not, most of us found our way out of the system ALONE. As much as we'd like it to be fair, deconversion cannot work by the same charismatic methods that work to convert people in the first place. If it were a matter of better evangelism, the numbers of nonbelievers vs believers would be more even.

 

Here's a couple books to get started. These one's should be left lying around:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Kens-Guide-Bible-Ken...TF8&s=books

 

http://www.amazon.com/Sacred-Origins-Profo...TF8&s=books

[R. S. Martin]

1. I can do that even as a Christian. (Not if you follow the Bible)

 

The funny thing about that answer is that the Bible condones just about anything under the sun, and then some. Depends how you take the Bible. Lots of people say you can't access the internet if you follow the Bible. I don't know what the arguments are but I know there are churches that forbid internet access. Or severely restrict it.

 

The internet is about the closest thing I know of to use as an analogy for spiritual connection. It's energy and nothing more. People who try to convey spirit in everyday language refer to it as energy. If energy is so wonderful and complex that we can communicate instantly with someone in the middle of the ocean, or out in space, or just a floor up in our building; if energy transforms into all the beautiful natural world of trees and grass and snow and animals and people and earth, might it not be worth worshipping?

 

So I guess it depends on what you think the Bible says as to whether or not you can do certain things and still be a Christian who follows the Bible. But of course nothing will work if in her mind you are lost.

[mwc]

Mike, I feel for you, I really do. I can honestly say I can empathize with you on this one. Even your name hits home.

 

Whoever has your wife's ear is in control. It's that simple. Do not give them any more power than they have now. This means stop providing them information. Sadly, this means you'll have to pull back from your wife in strategic areas because she IS telling them intimate details of your personal lives. This last round was just to see how much more info she could extract...it wasn't an "abstract" xianity vs. "other" discussion. You thought it was to see what she was really thinking when it was more likely to get into your head and see "how far gone" you truly are.

 

As I said before, the women my wife got around projected everything negative in the world onto me. My wife told me non-stop how she loved me and how great I was but when I finally got ahold of her emails I found out what a dick I really was. How the things I said apparently meant something altogether different to her than what they meant coming out of my mouth. It was like my world turned upside down. When my wife left me the first time she claimed it was all her idea...the emails told a different story. They had encouraged her to leave and she resisted. They finally said enough things so that when I finally did one of them it "clicked" and they were right all along. I was really horrible and these people (did I mention they were 1000 miles away?) knew more about our marriage than I did. She knew some closer but I never found out who they were exactly since she was afraid I'd confront them directly (and she was right).

 

So I don't want to be like those women but at the same time I don't want you to think that these people are harmless and won't put thoughts into your wife's head to gain knowledge about you. They told my wife that they were only concerned about my soul and wanted to help me and our marriage. They trampled our marriage down and when they realized I objected to their intrusion they turned on me like ravenous wolves. They told my wife they would LOVE to speak with me until they knew what they were up against then I became Satan incarnate and they ran and told my wife I was going to kill her. My wife called the cops on me (they told her to reconcile and come home) and she even went to a battered woman's shelter (where they told her to come home and reconcile). She dragged me through shit because of all this.

 

Just don't let your guard down. I finally told my wife that I know the truth. It's all a fraud. I've taken the time to study it. I know history and religion (I think my posts back me). She, on the other hand, can't compete with my knowledge in this area even though she is highly intelligent and otherwise educated. She can believe what she wants but since we've been fighting she's changed her tune enough times for me to know that her beliefs are basically meaningless. I therefore discount them entirely despite her protests. If she wishes to continue inserting them into arguments then she will be dismissed and possibly ridiculed. Yes, this is rude, but that's what I've done (after a year of the crap I put up with I couldn't take anymore). This doesn't mean I flaunt my disbelief in her face. I speak of science as fact (not opinion...so, for example, the earth is roughly 4 billion years old and there was no global flood) and I keep most everything else to myself since I have no need to provoke anything (that's what xians on this board are for).

 

The only thing that worked in my favor was when she needed them most (because she wouldn't turn to evil old me) was they weren't there for her. They disappeared (for reasons unknown to me). Not that this really makes me feel too much better but it might work to your favor somehow?

 

Sorry for going on so long. This just strikes a chord in me that I really could (and have for therapeutic reasons) written many pages about it.

 

mwc

[Eponymic]

Keep of the good fight Mike.

 

You are doing the right thing and taking the right approach. If she's not going to come asking questions with an open heart, then she's not going to hear the answers.

 

So hopefully she will hear things just the right way that make her open up again. Until then, I hope everything goes well for you.

[Purple]

Aw man Mike I'm sorry, that sucks. I lucked out, when the wolves tried to turn my husbnad against me I said the right thing, I looked him in the eye and asked "Are you okay?" He never played this kind of game with me though, the ask the fake question thing, I agree with others here, backing off is the right thing. Me, I'd probably confrount her with "So, this was a trick question???!!!" DON'T do that, it would be the WRONG thing to do. My relationship with my husband has been good for a long time, my relationship history with women is a wee bit more rocky. Some might get pissed at me, but I'm not sure I see the above purely as a xian thing, I see it as a woman thing. I so don't get women sometimes. Yeah ok I AM a woman, but pppffthhhhh doesn't mean I get them.

[Kelli]

Mike,

 

My wife remained in the church and very much a fundy when I left. Fortunately, she respected me enough to not pressure me to go to church and she loved me whether I did or not. I also respected her enough not to pressure her to stop. She stopped when she saw how much better off I was. I became a better, more loving, less controlling, caring individual.

 

My Susie and I are closer now as agnostic-pagan-atheists than we ever were as christians. We love and respect each other very deeply. We've been through a lot of shit together in the past 10 years and the church played a big part in the shit.

 

So I think you're wise to give her space. Let her see positive changes in you. It may take months or years, but if you just back off it'll take the heat off. I highly recommend using the one tool they always talk about but rarely ever can use themselves -- show them true, unconditional love. Show them just how good a non-christian can be. It really does work.

[garrisonjj]

In a previous thread I asked for things an atheist

 

It sounds as if she is working some things out too. As I had the courage to "dump religion" I also noted my wif stop attending church and it goes all without talking about it.

 

I am personally happy as a born again atheist after releasing a lifetime of unhappy catholicism.

 

Give it time, she will discuss it when she's ready.

[Rhia]

I'm sure you love your wife and want what's best for her, but I hate seeing people toyed with. I would NEVER let someone walk all over me in such a way without knowing how to take what they're using to toy with people and show them the error of your ways. If you decide to, use with caution:

 

This may be a bit extreme, but if she is going to play this game, you have every right to play it right back.

 

Since she IS a Christian and you're not, you have every right to remind her of the SEVERAL places in the Bible where it's mentioned that the wife is to submit to her husband; and that you are NOT to be toyed with on your lack of religion if she doesn't want to be reminded of her command to submit to you before God (because another verse clearly states that God puts those in charge of us that "he" wishes, and we must obey them because they were placed there by God- leading into Wives submit to your husbands). I'm not saying to hurt her with this, but just that if she's going to follow one rule in Bible, she needs to look at and follow them all. Which means you deserve the respect of not being walked all over.

 

It's mean, it's the one huge thing that I hated with Christianity, and it's in the Bible (new Testament, somewhere in 1 or 2 Corinthians, so she can't say "it was Old Law"). So if she's going to be a bitch to you, just give her a little reminder right back about what it's like being toyed with by god.

 

Why not show her this little jewel of fundamentalist bullshit? http://www.ladiesagainstfeminism.com/artman/publish/

 

If she's such a good little Christian, she can't really argue with much on that. If she's really questioning, she may just end up questioning more.

 

*sigh* Although I must say, it can be quite hurtful to some people to have their religion thrown back in their faces. Sorry if I seem like I'm getting a little carried away, I just hate to see people being dragged through shit they don't deserve. The aforementioned is a last-ditch, drastic measure that must be done under very careful circumstances; but anyway, I guess I'm just kinda venting on your own behalf. Be assured I'm not so completely nuts.

[Mikefight]

She already had a problem with the being a submissive wife. She went to the preacher and asked him about it. He said that it was a cultural thing that existed in biblical times and was not needed now. So she does not not think she has to do that now.

 

Funny how they pick and choose the laws they want to follow.

 

Why not throw out the rules about homosexuality, tithe, praying, the sabbath, and God all together? Just keep, the golden rule.

[Dhampir]

She already had a problem with the being a submissive wife. She went to the preacher and asked him about it. He said that it was a cultural thing that existed in biblical times and was not needed now. So she does not not think she has to do that now.

...So you're (the preacher) saying that god, infinitely wise, all-knowing, etc., couldn't influence the cultural mores of HIS PEOPLE to more accurately reflect an egalitarian society, where enforced submissiveness is not seen as the way to do things? God's word is written around the way HIS PEOPLE wanted to do things, and not the other way around?

[Rhia]

See? That's where it pisses me off the most and where my point was going.

 

That Christians either need to take it all as law and suffer the consequences (i.e. those that break state laws, such as not stoning your wife if she cheats on you), or they need to take a long, hard look at their religion and find it lacking.

 

I was trying to say that because she wasn't willing to submit, is all the more reason that she should have been reminded of it. After all, that most misogynistic of books details that if she got herself into the mess of being "unequally yoked", that she still needs to submit to her husband; because unless it's a case of adultery (and even then it was only if she cheated on her husband) could there be any case for divorce. So many Christians claim to be against divorce, yet have the highest divorce rate, so again, they're obviously not listening.

 

And I went to a church where I hated the thought of submission, and it was preached as being "that you wish to love your husband with your whole heart, and he loves you the same, as Christ loves us enough to die for us". I hated the word submission. But if there are women who are not Amish or Mennonite and are still taking the command to wear a head covering seriously, then why should she pick and choose between what she wants culturally, and what she wants spiritually?

 

I just think it's about time someone, ANYONE, put their foot down and told her straight off: look, either follow it ALL or don't follow it!

[garrisonjj]

She already had a problem with the being a submissive wife. She went to the preacher and asked him about it. He said that it was a cultural thing that existed in biblical times and was not needed now. So she does not not think she has to do that now.

 

Funny how they pick and choose the laws they want to follow.

 

Why not throw out the rules about homosexuality, tithe, praying, the sabbath, and God all together? Just keep, the golden rule.

 

 

Typical fuckin fundy reply! Yep, its in there but THIS is what they meant!

[mwc]

She already had a problem with the being a submissive wife. She went to the preacher and asked him about it. He said that it was a cultural thing that existed in biblical times and was not needed now. So she does not not think she has to do that now.

 

Funny how they pick and choose the laws they want to follow.

 

Why not throw out the rules about homosexuality, tithe, praying, the sabbath, and God all together? Just keep, the golden rule.

Yep...the path of least resistance...to the church and the pastor's control.

 

You're an apostate so even if you had said the EXACT same thing when you were xian and again today it would have meant jack shit nothing because what can an evil apostate know?

 

The bible says the man is the spiritual leader of the home so you should be able to rightly declare the bible null and void and she as the submissive woman should have to just accept it (don't try it...it doesn't work even as a joke...none of these things do...I speak from experience).

 

Besides, she is only to submit to a xian husband (this is another loophole used). You, as an apostate, can be "technically" seen as leaving the marriage (being bound under the one true xian god and all) and she is freed from her obligation to you as a result of your choice. It used to show I didn't respect our marriage.

 

mwc

[Rhia]

If it hasn't been done already, someone should try to write a self-help book for ex-christians dealing with their religious spouses, and how to not rip out their hair from all the crap! That's the problem with their bible, there's too many loopholes!

 

One of the things I hate the most that Christians take with what you just said mwc, is that a Christian could be the world's greatest Biblical scholar, but as soon as they become an apostate, it's like suddenly we're viewed as having NO knowledge whatsoever! They take us back to square one as if we're completely stupid; yet if we were to reciprocate that madness in any way, and try to explain how typical things in our lives work, we would be considered "patronizing" and "mean".