R. S. Martin Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 According to the New Testament, Jesus said something about the road to heaven and its gate being narrow and "few there be that find it." Yet about a third of the world's population is Christian. If it is true that "few there be that find it" (and the Bible says scripture cannot be broken), then the very numbers that keep the religion going prove that it is not true. If we don't want to go to hell we have to believe. If we believe, the number of Christians becomes too large and it's not the right religion after all. There must be something wrong somewhere. It's a dilemma that I can't resolve. It bothered me ever since I was old enough to think about it and that is a very long time. I was a Christian most of that time. How do real* Christians defend it?** *This is based on the charge that if we had been real Christians we would not have deconverted. Since I deconverted I was obviously not a real Christian. **God moves in myterious ways or his ways are past finding out doesn't count because it's just a cop-out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 There must be something wrong somewhere. It's a dilemma that I can't resolve. It bothered me ever since I was old enough to think about it and that is a very long time. I was a Christian most of that time. How do real* Christians defend it?** When I was a real Christian, my answer was that the cult I was in was the only one of all the Christian out there that had the true doctrines. RCC? Going to hell. Lutherans? Decieved. And so on until we got to us, the ones who had the truth. Few who were saved. For mainstream Christians this is a moot point. It's not about literal anything. Only the cultists think the Bible is literal, so they are "the few" by default, thus being among god's elect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 I have to go with Antlerman on this one...EXCEPT...we all know deep down it's the Missouri Synod Lutherans that ARE the saved (and only the true believers among them) and the rest of you suckers that are going to be crying "Lord, Lord..." (I'm looking at you Antlerman ) What of me? Well, I can denounce god all I want, but being in the right church (see above) AND being a true believer while there, I can never be plucked from my masters' hand. I'm set! mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramen666 Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 No No No thats the wrong religion mwc, its California Non Denomenational church who teaches the truth directly from the Bible and the other denomenaitions are wrong and you are going to hell because your pastor is teaching lies, but yet you won't know it till your burning in hell. I am dead serious that is how my church taught. Catholics are a cult, JW are hellbound just knock off every denemenation oh wait except Baptitsts because they are the closest to our truth but they still don't got it. So it is a select (insert denomenation) here is the select few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Open_Minded Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 When I was a real Christian, my answer was that the cult I was in was the only one of all the Christian out there that had the true doctrines. RCC? Going to hell. Lutherans? Decieved. And so on until we got to us, the ones who had the truth. Few who were saved.Antlerman is right - I'm one of the "decieved". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 Well you guys is wrong. I'm one of the few apostates from the TrueChruch, The Church of Christ Instrumental. It is only the apostates from the Church of Christ instrumental, that was once saved. All you other suckers was always hell bound, 'specially you baby sprinklers, and communion skippers. Hey I just noticed that I'm over 2000 posts. If the past is any indication of the future that means EX-C is going to crash again soon. Sorry, I shouldn't have typed so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted February 6, 2007 Author Share Posted February 6, 2007 Are you guys crazy or what? The entire world knows that the horse and buggy Mennonites and Amish, and some of the car Mennonites and Amish stand a fairly good chance of getting into heaven. But most of the rest of the world's Christians don't practice non-resistence when it comes to bearing of arms and swearing of the oath. And of course there's all the infant baptism people. I would guess most of you grew up listening to the radio, watching TV, and riding in automobiles. God does not like those things one little bit. Or at least, that is what some people think and they most certainly call themselves Christians. Oops! Did I hear someone whisper something about legalism? Ummm. Well, the Mennonites don't practice legalism. They just have a whole set of rule to guide people so they can live the sanctified holy life in their daily life. That's not legalism; it's just a way to keep law and order among Christians. Huh? You still think that is legalism? But look at all the churches that don't have these rules. Their women cut their hair, wear pants, and--horrors! they believe divorce is okay no matter how very plainly Jesus condemned it. And they allow women to preach and they have musical instruments!?!?! Okay end of rant. I hope no one took me seriously. Seriously, though, those are a few of the things the Old Order Mennonites condemn in the churches most of your grew up in. And your churches would condemn the OOM for legalism and perhaps a few other things. I guess that kind of reasoning does keep the numbers down. I just never could believe it that anybody would condemn all those people to hell. It didn't seem right. But then, they most certainly did not seem like Christians. I must confess this thread it taking a very interesting route though nowhere close to what I had imagined. I love it though. Keep it coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkmate Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 Well it's obvious who the Real Christians are...the Jehovah's Witnesses! According to them and Revelations only 144,000 people will go to heaven. Compared to billions of humans THAT is a "few", right? And even not all the JW will make it, since they number well over 144,000. Why do they bother? The odds are clearly stacked against them. Silly wabbits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pug Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 Yo Ruby, Okay end of rant. I hope no one took me seriously. I thought you only directed your intellectual crap at the Chosen Few? Wow, your stuff was rather...err... insightful (not!). Okay kidding. How is your Master's getting along? How long before you make us proud? Take care (i actually miss ya). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
narcissist Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 No way, mate. Only Sydney Anglicans are true to the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 Okay, I'm putting my butt on the line here but I'm going to offer my understanding of that verse. I understand heaven as being true happiness that comes from knowing that we are all part of the one life. In this sense, Jesus was absolutely correct when we can look at all the ones claiming that they have the only way through that narrow gate in the sky. Happiness is put outside of oneself where it can never be found. How many people in these sects of religion can be seen to find this understanding? How narrow indeed... It's the people that are outside of rigid religious beliefs and have rejected this notion of finding happiness somewhere else that have actually found it, IMO. Not even the Christians have found the narrow gate. How ironic. Their superiority complex gets in the way. Okay...I hope I didn't come across as defending the fundamentalist view. I find it just as horrid and extremely funny how their own teachings turn them into the thing it teaches against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 Okay, I'm putting my butt on the line here but I'm going to offer my understanding of that verse. I understand heaven as being true happiness that comes from knowing that we are all part of the one life. In this sense, Jesus was absolutely correct when we can look at all the ones claiming that they have the only way through that narrow gate in the sky. Happiness is put outside of oneself where it can never be found. How many people in these sects of religion can be seen to find this understanding? How narrow indeed... It's the people that are outside of rigid religious beliefs and have rejected this notion of finding happiness somewhere else that have actually found it, IMO. Not even the Christians have found the narrow gate. How ironic. Okay...I hope I didn't come across as defending the fundamentalist view. I find it just as horrid and extremely funny how their own teachings turn them into the thing it teaches against. I don't see much difference between a hard, legalistic exclusionary clause and a soft touchy feely exclusionary clause. I would think that almost every person on earth feels like they at least have a finger on the handle of truth, and it is those other poor saps that are groping for the handle in the dark. To be blunt, this is just the sort of thing you have done here. You have replaced one exclusionary clause with another. I know you wouldn't force this on anyone like a fundy would, but there isn't a great deal of difference other than that. But you are in luck, because my bit of the elephant* is the correct bit and I will be happy to help you put your finger on it. *The TrueReligion doesn't worry about mixed metaphors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 I don't see much difference between a hard, legalistic exclusionary clause and a soft touchy feely exclusionary clause. I would think that almost every person on earth feels like they at least have a finger on the handle of truth, and it is those other poor saps that are groping for the handle in the dark. To be blunt, this is just the sort of thing you have done here. You have replaced one exclusionary clause with another. I know you wouldn't force this on anyone like a fundy would, but there isn't a great deal of difference other than that. But you are in luck, because my bit of the elephant* is the correct bit and I will be happy to help you put your finger on it. *The TrueReligion doesn't worry about mixed metaphors. No way...just because you are touching the ass of the elephant doesn't mean the whole elephant is an ass! All kidding aside, I have often thought of that but I have learned a new word, sophistry. If you drop the "one life" that I spoke of, which you took for God (I presume), you will see that I am speaking about living life in the life that we have now. They are different arguments. The argument is this life vs the afterlife. It isn't my understanding of the afterlife vs another's understanding of the same and that I know that God is like this. If it was, then you could claim that I am being exlusive. Am I being exclusive when I exclude exclusiveness? Yes, when they apply to different things. I am very exclusive when beliefs exclude others from happiness in this life. That in itself is inclusive. Maybe it is semantics that cause this to cloud the issue, I don't know. What could anyone talk about other than what they know in this life? Is there really some power that gives people Godly words whispered in their ear, or is there only people trying to be happy and trying to relate how they have been able to find it? The argument shifts when God is brought in and people make claims to know it, such as the afterlife. How could anyone know anything about that at all? My argument rests on the assumption that we are all in this life together...inclusive. When people claim that their life is better because of some supernatural understanding that excludes others, then I become exclusive because of their lack of inclusiveness . I don't claim to know God/whatever and I never will. The only claim I do make is to state that if there is a source for all life, it doesn't play favorties. How is that exclusive? I am just trying to state that people are the source for all these writings and all these insights. They are how they viewed the "source". If one can understand that people aren't being told words to write from God, then they can understand what they are saying and learn from them. I don't find it possible that the very source for our being alive, whatever that is, plays favorites. All beings that are living are alive, aren't they? I hope that made sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 I have to go with Antlerman on this one...EXCEPT...we all know deep down it's the Missouri Synod Lutherans that ARE the saved (and only the true believers among them) and the rest of you suckers that are going to be crying "Lord, Lord..." (I'm looking at you Antlerman ) You guys got it all wrong. It's The Church of What's Happ'n Now that's going to heaven. Everyone else can kiss Dante's infernal ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 Okay, I'm putting my butt on the line here but I'm going to offer my understanding of that verse. <Snipping blasphemous comments> You're wrong! And this shows you are on the wide-gate path to hell! If you were on the narrow-gate path you would have interpreted properly and said: • Women who cut their hair are damned! • Women who speak in church are dammed! • Women who do not obey they husbands are damned! • People who do not tithe are damned! • People who do not go to church are damned! • People who do not obey their pastors are damned! • People who watch T.V., go to movies, dance, listen to music, sing songs, and smile are damned, damned, damned!!! • People who have sex are damned! • Men who spill their own seed in acts of vile self-abuse are damned! • Children who disobey their parents are damned! • Children who get tattoos are damned! • Children who laugh at bald men will be eaten by bears, and then damned! • Christians who were baptized by sprinkling are damned! • Christians who were baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and not the name "Jesus" are damned!!! • Christians who believe in predestination are damned! • Christians who do not speak in tongues are damned! So there you go. That narrows the saved list right on down to properly fit what the words of Jesus really meant. Very, very few indeed will be saved and know the truth. Praise Zeus! Ohh... shit.... now I'm damned too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 Sorry guys, but only those who praise Xaru will get to heaven*... and since I'm the only person in the world who does that, it's just gonna be me and Xaru partying away for eternity. *Heaven is really the name for the VIP section... the rest of it is just as good, but I get the roomy part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 So there you go. That narrows the saved list right on down to properly fit what the words of Jesus really meant. Very, very few indeed will be saved and know the truth. Praise Zeus! Ohh... shit.... now I'm damned too! HA! Well...damn us all to hell anyway! There is no hope for us stinky humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 Sorry guys, but only those who praise Xaru will get to heaven*... and since I'm the only person in the world who does that, it's just gonna be me and Xaru partying away for eternity. *Heaven is really the name for the VIP section... the rest of it is just as good, but I get the roomy part. nuh-uhh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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