Pastor's Challenge

[Guest sawitch]

My ex-pastor has issued a challenge. He wants me to read Rick Warren's 'Purpose driven life'. The idea is to read a chapter each day, make notes and then discuss via e-mail.

 

He's also prepared to read a book of my choice in a similar way. Any suggestions as to the book I should choose? Some of the books I've read are too easy to pull to pieces or to dismiss with Christian apologetics.

I'm looking for a book that deals with the issues fairly, yet is also evidence based.

 

What do you recommend?

[Celsus]

My ex-pastor has issued a challenge. He wants me to read Rick Warren's 'Purpose driven life'. The idea is to read a chapter each day, make notes and then discuss via e-mail.

 

He's also prepared to read a book of my choice in a similar way. Any suggestions as to the book I should choose? Some of the books I've read are too easy to pull to pieces or to dismiss with Christian apologetics.

I'm looking for a book that deals with the issues fairly, yet is also evidence based.

 

What do you recommend?

 

 

The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins

[Kelli]

Interesting. Wonder if he'll really read it. If he does don't count on him doing it objectively.

[narcissist]

Do you have to accept his challenge at all? He is your *ex*-pastor, afterall, and has no authority over you now.

 

Otherwise, I'd recommend a book that you know well. That way you will be able to questions him on it and you will know if he's actually reading it.

[YDOAPS]

My ex-pastor has issued a challenge. He wants me to read Rick Warren's 'Purpose driven life'. The idea is to read a chapter each day, make notes and then discuss via e-mail.

 

He's also prepared to read a book of my choice in a similar way. Any suggestions as to the book I should choose? Some of the books I've read are too easy to pull to pieces or to dismiss with Christian apologetics.

I'm looking for a book that deals with the issues fairly, yet is also evidence based.

 

What do you recommend?

The Reason Driven Life

 

It's teh same format and it destroys the Purpose Driven Life.

[StewartP]

Your pastor may well have the support of many apologists and colleagues.

 

You will have us!

 

If you get stumped or need help, post it here.

[exbeliever]

My ex-pastor has issued a challenge. He wants me to read Rick Warren's 'Purpose driven life'.

 

He's also prepared to read a book of my choice in a similar way. Any suggestions as to the book I should choose?

 

What do you recommend?

 

This is kind of a weird challenge. He isn't wanting you to read a book on apologetics, but rather an emotional book about living the Christian life. His hope, it seems, is that this book will tug your "heart-strings," not necessarily your "mind-strings."

 

I am actually a former pastor with lots of seminary training. In my old way of thinking, I don't think a book on atheist arguments would have done much against my faith. We spend a lot of time on that stuff in seminary.

 

Since your pastor sounds conservative (he is asking you to read Warren), I think the best thing you could assign him to read is a book that questions his thoughts about the Bible and faith from a biblical studies perspective instead of a philosophical one. Specifically, I'm thinking of books by "liberal" Christian scholars who undermine the Bible from a faith perspective. This may sound strange, but these kind of books really throw conservative ministers for a loop. It's unclear how exactly to answer them.

 

So, my suggestion is:

 

The Birth of Christianity : Discovering What Happened in the Years Immediately After the Execution of Jesus by John D Crossan.

 

Here is the Amazon write-up of this book:

 

John Dominic Crossan is the leading contemporary scholar on the historical Jesus, which means that his vocation is to look behind, around, and through Christ's resurrection, toward the goal of establishing what can be known about the life of Jesus of Nazareth.

His search for the historical Jesus, however, takes place in the larger context of the life of the church. Among the goals of The Birth of Christianity is to teach readers how our habits of worship have created false gods. To that end, Crossan attempts to unearth the religion's earliest forms. What did Christianity look like, Crossan asks, between the crucifixion and the conversion of Paul? And what might Christianity look like today had Saul never set off toward Damascus?

 

Crossan's conclusions don't come from newly discovered documents; they come from freshly-minted academic methodologies. He uses anthropology, history, and archaeology to construct his arguments about the essential nature of both Jesus' religion and Paul's. The 25-cent summary of his conclusion is that Jesus did not recognize the dualism between spirit and flesh that formed the basis of Paul's apocalyptic Christianity. In other words, Jesus was more Jewish than Paul.

 

The ramifications of this argument are huge. Crossan says much of Christian worship--and many of the world's injustices--are based on the dualistic Christ that Paul preached. Though Crossan doesn't bully readers into accepting his conclusions, he does press hard for them to situate their own beliefs in relation to his interpretations of Jesus and Paul. At every point in the evolution of his argument, he asks readers questions such as "How do you understand a human being?" and "What is the character of your God?" Then he proceeds to answer these questions himself. Finally, he tells readers what he thinks these answers mean.

 

It's an incredibly civilized style of argument--both spiritually and intellectually respectful and always rhetorically engaging.

 

This kind of book will probably blow your pastor's mind. It certainly would have blown mine back in the day, and I considered myself a pretty decent apologist.

 

Good luck.

[chefranden]

I dis-recomend the God Delusion. It will be too off putting for the average devoted believer, so they won't take it seriously.

 

I think exbeliever's suggestion is excellent. You might be able to get this fella to skip the pop-christianity and go right to this meat.

 

What ever you choose, make sure you know it well.

 

I wouldn't approach this as if this fella was an evil salesman out to make a profit on a piece of junk. If you know this guy then you should already have a feeling about whether or not he is a con man. If he does try to manipulate your emotional connections with the past, be sure to point it out to him.

 

I would find an exchange like this fun, but then I've been out for years.

[Purple]

I am kind of with narcissist on this. I would question, if possible directly, why the pastor wants you to do this. What is his hope for this exersise? I fuly do not trust pastors, at all.

[Checkmate]

My ex-pastor has issued a challenge. He wants me to read Rick Warren's 'Purpose driven life'. The idea is to read a chapter each day, make notes and then discuss via e-mail.

 

He's also prepared to read a book of my choice in a similar way. Any suggestions as to the book I should choose? Some of the books I've read are too easy to pull to pieces or to dismiss with Christian apologetics.

I'm looking for a book that deals with the issues fairly, yet is also evidence based.

 

What do you recommend?

That you not bother with this venture. It's a waste of time.

 

First, The Purpose-Driven Life is a book of horse manure. I bought a copy when I was an ON-FIRE BELIEVER and even THEN I couldn't read it. I managed to choke down about one-third of it's content before I threw it away. It was absolute rubbish, even from the "Christian" perspective.

 

Second, NOTHING you can give this Pastor to read will make a dent in his "faith". He's a PASTOR! This is how he makes his living. Do you REALLY think he's going to chuck it all and get a real job? Some do, but they are RARE. This guy is just looking to pick apart YOUR un-belief. I wouldn't bother with him.

 

That being said, and if you STILL insist on going through with this, may I recommend for your ex-Pastor, Atheism: The Case Against God by George H. Smith.

 

I find his logic and insights irrefutable. Of course, those wearing "Faith Goggles" will have no trouble refuting him.

[Poonis]

The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine.

[Taphophilia]

I think he's trying suck you into The 40 Days Of Purpose. It's national church campaign, for "spiritual growth" where they read a chapter a day of The Purpose Driven Life, so that every one knows what their 5 purposes in life are: Worship: Fellowship: Discipleship: Ministry: Evangelism.

There more to it than that, but it's a big, big thing that chruches all across the country are doing.

[xild]

What? If this guy is your EX pastor why is he trying to continue mentoring you?

 

I think the best thing you can do for anyone like him is to teach him about boundaries and to respect them. Teach by example. Set a boundary and ask him not to cross it. It's not about dogma, for you, it's about that for him. For him also, it's about winning you back.

 

The christian's biggest challenge, respect the autonomy of another, the right to believe otherwise and still be assured your soul is safe.

 

Sounds like 40 Days of Purpose is just a way to get Christians on the same page, behaving like they need them to behave, in droves, in order to take them to the next level, and I'm sure there is a plan, probably political.

[Mythra]

First, The Purpose-Driven Life is a book of horse manure. I bought a copy when I was an ON-FIRE BELIEVER and even THEN I couldn't read it.

 

 

Oh, me too. I read it when I was a bonzai kamikaze born-anew fundy.

 

And, halfway through I said, "what, are you fuckin kidding me?"

 

If a pastor asked me to read this book now, I'd politely ask him to bite me.

 

But, two books by Robert M. Price would be good to lay on a fundy pastor. "The Reason Driven Life", which has already been mentioned here, and "The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man."

 

A pastor won't dismiss a credentialed theologian like Price as quickly as he would Dawkins or Sagan.

 

But, he'll still dismiss him. You aren't going to sway a pastor. He has too much invested in his comfort zone.

[Jubilant]

What do you recommend? [/size]

 

Oh, yes, I have the perfect book suggestion and how ironic because this book has *40 Days* worth of reading too, as a matter of fact, this book uses The Purpose Driven Life in each of its chapters...this book is called The Reason Driven Life: What on Earth Am I Here For? by Robert M. Price.

 

I still have the book. The cover is all prettied up like TPDL and everything, I love it.

 

From the "About the Book Section" on Amazon:

 

Recovering fundamentalist, member of the Jesus Seminar and former Baptist pastor Price offers the first parody and critique of Warren's bestseller. Following closely the structure of Warren's book, Price divides his book into 40 days. On each day, he criticizes Warren's message for the day-worship, salvation, eternal life, the Bible-and offers his own interpretation of the reasons we live our lives the ways we do. As his title indicates, Price argues that individuals need not be told by an outsider how to find purpose; rather, they can use their own reason to ferret out the meaning of life.

[Eponymic]

This is kind of a weird challenge. He isn't wanting you to read a book on apologetics, but rather an emotional book about living the Christian life. His hope, it seems, is that this book will tug your "heart-strings," not necessarily your "mind-strings."

 

I wholeheartedly agree with this analysis. And I'm in the boat with using the anti-thesis book "The Reason Driven Life" as a perfect counterpoint to his platform.

 

And as long as you know that going in, that he's looking to play emotions more than facts- I say have fun and take him up on the challenge.

 

One other small bit of advice that goes a long way with formal debate. He who shows anger or frustration first, loses. Keep your cool in all situations, and you'll flumox him even further.

 

Cheers!

[Purple]

He who shows anger or frustration first, loses. Keep your cool in all situations, and you'll flumox him even further.

 

Awesome point Eponymic! One I can have a hard time with sometimes, but I do try.

[Mman2000]

I would definately say Atheist Universe by David Mills is a good one, it goes after many different arguements from christians about creationism and social conservative "values".

[Mythra]

Hey - I have an idea.

 

You could go ahead and read the Purpose Driven Life. And read the Reason Driven Life concurrently. Price follows the PDL chapter by chapter and knocks Rick Warren on his ass.

 

Then, you can use Price's reasoning and go back to the pastor - and let him know why "you" think the Purpose Driven Life is drivel.

 

What the hell. It's kinda devious - but anything goes when someone is trying to manipulate you. And this pastor is trying to manipulate you.

[Amethyst]

That you not bother with this venture. It's a waste of time.

 

Have to agree. I wouldn't trust him to hold up his end of the bargain. Why do you insist on seeing him if he is your ex-pastor? You shouldn't have any obligations to visit people who are part of your past. And yeah, I also think he's trying to manipulate you. Don't give him the opportunity to.

[Guest sawitch]

Thanks everybody for your suggestions.

 

To explain a bit further - this guy hasn't been my pastor since 2002 when he moved to another church. We've kept in touch by e-mail. I thought he'd be up for a counter challenge and initially he said OK, but he's beginning to back pedal and is asking why I want him to read a book, how that would benefit him and is getting fussy about which book. Sounds like a case of cold feet!!

 

I particularly like the idea of reading 'Reason driven life' in parallel with 'purpose driven life' and may do that anyway. It will be useful to compare and keep a log of comments.

[Eponymic]

Thanks everybody for your suggestions.

 

To explain a bit further - this guy hasn't been my pastor since 2002 when he moved to another church. We've kept in touch by e-mail. I thought he'd be up for a counter challenge and initially he said OK, but he's beginning to back pedal and is asking why I want him to read a book, how that would benefit him and is getting fussy about which book. Sounds like a case of cold feet!!

 

I particularly like the idea of reading 'Reason driven life' in parallel with 'purpose driven life' and may do that anyway. It will be useful to compare and keep a log of comments.

 

You bet your ass he back pedaling. He wasn't expecting a real challenge, and now that he's getting one he's scared.

 

I'd tell him, 'hey, you offered this challenge. Now if you don't want to do it, that's fine, but if you really know what you're talking about and believe in God, it shouldn't be a problem now should it?' Or something like that.