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junkpoet
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so i have been spending some time in debate on carm.org. holy shit. at the risk of sounding like most of the christians on the site, these guys are the most annoying small mindes brats i have ever encountered. and im a high school teacher. as a life long church of christ preachers kid, my recent fall from faith due to reading and thinking have me on shakey ground. but they are convincing me i have made the right decision.

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It's a Christian site for discussion that has a wide range of topics including Atheism. You can post why you are not a Christian and you will then get into a bitter discussion as to why you are wrong. But then other Atheists on site will help you out and respond. I have to admit it really has strengthen my new found Atheism. It has shown me Christians in their true light. I am amazed at how vicious they can be and how easy it is to watch them foam at the mouth. They display no Christian Love or tolerence of any kind.

The Christians on the site are pretty much Fundalmentalists who believe every word of the bible. What I usually will do is post a bible problem and then watch as they start tearing me up. I then respond (nicely I might add) and it goes on from there.

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Welcome to Ex-C JunkPoet. I have no idea what Carm is either. I think it's a good thing to keep challenging yourself, but playing with the fundys is tantamount to banging your head against the wall, It gives you a headache and the wall wont move. :banghead:

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I went to take a peek over there and had to leave before I clicked on anything. I don't need the stress. :)

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I went to take a peek over there and had to leave before I clicked on anything. I don't need the stress. :)

 

Yeah, I don't want the stress of trying to have a discussion with a fundie, either. I enjoy the "fundies say the darnest things" website (http://www.fstdt.com) so I can keep up with current fundie "thot" and enjoy laughing at them at the same time. CARM and Rapture Ready are among the sites most often quoted on fstdt.

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It's a Christian site for discussion that has a wide range of topics including Atheism. You can post why you are not a Christian and you will then get into a bitter discussion as to why you are wrong. But then other Atheists on site will help you out and respond. I have to admit it really has strengthen my new found Atheism. It has shown me Christians in their true light. I am amazed at how vicious they can be and how easy it is to watch them foam at the mouth. They display no Christian Love or tolerence of any kind.

The Christians on the site are pretty much Fundalmentalists who believe every word of the bible. What I usually will do is post a bible problem and then watch as they start tearing me up. I then respond (nicely I might add) and it goes on from there.

 

hey thanks for the welcome...and yes notblinded it is probably a waste of time and blood pressure. i dont know if im as cool about debating fundies as southdakota. south has a point though, you do see a side of fundies that thoughly convinces you of their blindness. wow. there are a couple of guys in there, well, you would just have to read their responses to believe it.

 

it is strange, i have not figured it out yet. its not like i think im sam harris or something and im going to lead others to the truth, but i have this morbid desire to discuss the truths ive learned with those still on the other side. my transition was so gradual...really i never completly believed and i was a sorry christian anyway. but when the viel dropped off my eyes last august after a reading binge (dawkins, harris, the bible, and misquoting jesus) i dont know, i want to talk to somone on the other side that is where i was like 3 years ago. i hope i get over it. i would rather just move on.

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It's a Christian site for discussion that has a wide range of topics including Atheism. You can post why you are not a Christian and you will then get into a bitter discussion as to why you are wrong. But then other Atheists on site will help you out and respond. I have to admit it really has strengthen my new found Atheism. It has shown me Christians in their true light. I am amazed at how vicious they can be and how easy it is to watch them foam at the mouth. They display no Christian Love or tolerence of any kind.

The Christians on the site are pretty much Fundalmentalists who believe every word of the bible. What I usually will do is post a bible problem and then watch as they start tearing me up. I then respond (nicely I might add) and it goes on from there.

 

hey thanks for the welcome...and yes notblinded it is probably a waste of time and blood pressure. i dont know if im as cool about debating fundies as southdakota. south has a point though, you do see a side of fundies that thoughly convinces you of their blindness. wow. there are a couple of guys in there, well, you would just have to read their responses to believe it.

 

it is strange, i have not figured it out yet. its not like i think im sam harris or something and im going to lead others to the truth, but i have this morbid desire to discuss the truths ive learned with those still on the other side. my transition was so gradual...really i never completly believed and i was a sorry christian anyway. but when the viel dropped off my eyes last august after a reading binge (dawkins, harris, the bible, and misquoting jesus) i dont know, i want to talk to somone on the other side that is where i was like 3 years ago. i hope i get over it. i would rather just move on.

Now, don't get me wrong. I have nothing against going against the fundamentalists that come here. :HaHa: And, going against them has made me learn so much more than I ever would have. I owe them alot actually.

 

It's just seems hopeless when they are in such huge numbers. At least when they come here, sometimes they come willing to learn something.

 

Plus...I couldn't find the forum link! :grin:

 

And, welcome!

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I went to take a peek over there and had to leave before I clicked on anything. I don't need the stress. :)

 

Yeah, I don't want the stress of trying to have a discussion with a fundie, either. I enjoy the "fundies say the darnest things" website (http://www.fstdt.com) so I can keep up with current fundie "thot" and enjoy laughing at them at the same time. CARM and Rapture Ready are among the sites most often quoted on fstdt.

Ooouuuuuucchhiieeee! My eyes! My eyes! There gramar suks! :HaHa:

 

Oh my gawd! When Jesus was born, it split time in half (BCE/CE)? :lmao:

 

Now I feel bad for laughing at ignorance... :shrug:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:lmao:

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Okay...now I can't see a damn thing, my eyes have popped completely out of my head. :HaHa:

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Okay...now I can't see a damn thing, my eyes have popped completely out of my head. :HaHa:
Finally! You're starting to look like your avatar! :phew:

 

Took you long enough. :woohoo:

 

 

I've actually started to sprout whiskers, and my nose twitches from time to time. :HaHa:

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  • 4 weeks later...

i heard a story on all things considered. i looked it up but didn't want to pay for a transcript (i am cheap) the part that stuck me was the conclusion. it was an op-ed piece by i believe a catholic priest/writer name james martin? anyway, the story was a sort of priest's reaction to the hub-bub over the "lost tomb of christ" he seemed to be somewhat open minded as the discussed the evidence, but the jist of his reaction was kind of like, well, maybe, but i dont think it is the tomb of christ and if it is, it won't affect my faith anyway.

 

I’m not trying to discuss the tomb of christ thing. it just seemed odd to me to hear this story on NPR, where a true believer goes through this discussion of the evidence about the tomb of christ, then at the conclusion, says, evidence, smevidence. i believe because i want to..i have faith without regard for evidence.

 

so my question is, are there people out there that can honestly benefit from the discussion of evidence, historical/archeological/text criticism/basic logic? or are atheists just banging our collective heads against a brick wall here?

 

I often wonder what my reaction to these debates (held on carm) would have been back when I believed. Would I have listened? Or would I have just held my faith and made up and used creative arguments to explain away the obvious problems of inerrant belief?

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I often wonder what my reaction to these debates (held on carm) would have been back when I believed. Would I have listened? Or would I have just held my faith and made up and used creative arguments to explain away the obvious problems of inerrant belief?

 

I can't speak for anyone else but I would have listened. I've been so eager to know what people believe who don't believe in God that I would have listened, if for no other purpose than to learn what they have to say. Better take that as coming from a person who never truly believed despite very serious attempts. My parents, church, and teachers did their best to indoctrinate me and I did my absolute best to be indoctrinated. But I had a very serious flaw: I did my own thinking. I did my own thinking even as a very young child. Indoctrination was impossible under those circumstances.

 

Perhaps if they had told me that it was wrong to do my own thinking I would have submitted; that is not something I know. I did not know until after I had already left them that doing one's own thinking and asking questions was bad. Oh, I knew they didn't like it when I pushed questions too far. I never ever dared ask any real questions because of this. BUT I DID MY OWN THINKING.

 

I posted a bit on one or two threads in CARM a few weeks ago. Haven't checked recently but it seemed I had shut up Carico. I'm always surprised when Christians can't think up one more thing to top my last desperate attempt at proving them wrong. I have heard more than one Christian in real life tell me that, "Okay, that might make sense but I still want to believe what we were taught to believe."

 

I take that as an affirmation that my thought processes are working well but for whatever reason, the Christian does not want to rennovate her beliefs. Come to think of it, it's always women who give me that kind of respect. Now with all my education the men might give me the same kind of respect. I wish people would forget about being nice and look at the IDEAS, and think things through.

 

I suspect that even if they did give it more thought they would not dare accept any of the ideas. Why not? It takes a mighty strong personality to take on the capricious Ruler of the Universe who tosses bad guys into hell for past time.

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I can't speak for anyone else but I would have listened. I've been so eager to know what people believe who don't believe in God that I would have listened, if for no other purpose than to learn what they have to say. Better take that as coming from a person who never truly believed despite very serious attempts. My parents, church, and teachers did their best to indoctrinate me and I did my absolute best to be indoctrinated. But I had a very serious flaw: I did my own thinking. I did my own thinking even as a very young child. Indoctrination was impossible under those circumstances.

 

I laughed when I read the above in bold. I know what you mean. I have always had a tendency to think for myself as well. Sometimes it seems there are two kinds of people in the world, those who truly enjoy questioning everything and those whom seem to truly enjoy accepting what they are told/taught. I’m sure my free thinking drove me to keep reading until I read my way out of belief. But I was so bull-headed (as my mother told me) I don’t know if I would have listened to some atheist’s argument. I never encountered one when I was a believer, so I guess I will never know. I am a better listener today than I have been in the past, but I tend to always learn things on my own and the hard way.

 

I started this post because I wanted to understand myself better by hearing the experiences/thoughts of others. Why do I (and probably so many of us ex xians) want to discuss the reasons and evidence that brought us out of Christianity? Does arguing with apologists do me any good? Have any of you ever argued with an apologist and felt like he/she accepted/heard/ even understood a word? I have had them shut down and say “I will have to research that…” or something like that. But most of the time even the most eloquent argument sails by them unnoticed. (some good ones are posted in carm, guys like south Dakota and psalms) it seems to me that believers are so blinded by belief that any argument is futile.

 

Originally Posted by Billi

Regarding outlawing slavery, and you believe that'd work? God out lawed many things, did people stop doing those things? People couldn't even obey God's laws regarding 'regulating' slavery let alone out-lawing it.

 

junk poet responds….

interesting logic. god "out-lawed" adultery and murder. how is that working out for him? did all adultery and murder stop? so if something cant be stopped, then your all-powerful "god" shouldn't bother making laws against it? he should just regulate it?

 

does not makes sense to me. why did "he" not make adultery a sin except for on thursdays? you know, it could be like holy sanctioned randy thursdays. or maybe you can only sleep with another man's wife if she lives in a different town.

 

 

Billi again….

God knows that none can fully obey His laws. His laws exist to demonstrate humanity's need for help! Deep down inside, I'm sure all know that adultery or murder is wrong. However, we simply cannot stop ourselves from doing it. Even drug addicts know that drugs are no good, but they cannot help it! Law is not the solution. Law simply let you know what your problem is.

 

God's way of regulating humanity's problem is thru Christ. God will stop this problem all right. One way is to have us changed thru Christ, thru grace, along with our own willingness to change. The other is to simply kill you off. His will will be done.

 

BTW, God didn't specified a law against slavery because slavery is not as 'wrong' as adultery and murder. One can certainly commit adutery with a slave woman or perhaps rape her and to even murder her. That kind of 'slavery' is obviously wrong. However, I hope you guys can see that if a master were to really love his slaves, then it's not wrong. Just as I'm a slave for Christ, but of course he doesn't see me as simply one of his slaves.

 

and im back....

So this guy keeps on yammering that slavery is cool, if the massa is a good ole massa. What can you do with that? I think I would be wasting my time to chat with him.

 

Anyway, I must to some work. later

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Billi again….

............

BTW, God didn't specified a law against slavery because slavery is not as 'wrong' as adultery and murder. One can certainly commit adutery with a slave woman or perhaps rape her and to even murder her. That kind of 'slavery' is obviously wrong. However, I hope you guys can see that if a master were to really love his slaves, then it's not wrong. Just as I'm a slave for Christ, but of course he doesn't see me as simply one of his slaves.

 

This argument is just plain crazy. First he/she says slavery is wrong. Then he/she says slavery is okay. Then he/she indicates that he/she would not want to be "just" a slave--not even for Christ.

 

Here's why God did not outlaw slavery: Slaves were part of the furniture of everyday life when the Bible was being written. Period.

 

I don't know how the arguments go south of the border but I get the impression that slaves in the modern world were much more abused than in the ancient world. One of my profs suggested that in ancient times a slave had to be treated well because they could not afford buying new slaves all the time. Perhaps a slave might be equated with a car (this is my idea). Many people have cars these days but few people can afford to buy a new car, let alone a new car every few years. We take care of our cars; they took care of their slaves.

 

I don't know exactly when slavery was outlawed in England. But it seems to me it may have happened around the same time as machinery came into common use by the average citizen. I also get the impression that there was something about the way the southern US got settled and civilized that made slavery indespensible. On the other hand, I also read somewhere that the American South knew that slavery was wrong; they just needed someone to tell them.

 

For some reason, I have a hard time believing the latter. I can't imagine sane people going to war for the right to own slaves if all they needed was a bit of prodding to change their lifestyle. I would guess that if slavery had merely been a lifestyle they would have made a few changes and kept the basic lifestyle. But the entire economy must have been wrapped up in it. I don't know too much of this history but it occurs to me that not only did the liberated slaves become a liability but they became far less dependable as a labour force at the same time. Wouldn't it be every company's dream come true if they knew they could keep their employees till retirement?

 

Okay, I'm way off topic. I seriously doubt that this argument would do much good with a debate partner the likes of Billi. Such people will just switch approach when things don't go their way. And when things are brought back into focus they jump ship and claim God told them to leave because the captain was an atheist or some such garbage.

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