Ahh! Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 ... than why can we figure out that religious violence is wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 or that the Christian god commits evil acts in the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahh! Posted February 15, 2007 Author Share Posted February 15, 2007 Exactly! I was thinking of that too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 ... than why can we figure out that religious violence is wrong? That's because we do have a moral compass, but the religious don't. They have a set of laws they are to blindly follow under threat of a severe punishment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 It's true. I don't have a moral compass. It seemed to often lead me in the wrong direction. I threw it out and got me a moral gps unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 That's because we do have a moral compass, but the religious don't. They have a set of laws they are to blindly follow under threat of a severe punishment. So true. Everyone (except in some brain disorders) got some level of moral guide. And it's built in through Evolution, and it's based on strategic rules that can be explained with game theory. If every being was born with a moral compass that said "Kill everyone you see", the species would die out very soon. So evolution didn't favor the dying species, but the ones that had some kind of "moral compass", and this evolved to more advanced rules over time. And some parts of it has evolved into memes, like ethics in making contracts and dealings in business, and these meme rules doesn't work all over the world. Not every culture put the same emphasis on business ethics, and some put a lot into it. So the moral codes are part genetic and quite a bit "memetic". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Entgegen Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 ... than why can we figure out that religious violence is wrong? No no no...you have it all wrong. Acts of violence are okay so long as it's in the name of your god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 Everyone (except in some brain disorders) got some level of moral guide. And it's built in through Evolution, and it's based on strategic rules that can be explained with game theory. If every being was born with a moral compass that said "Kill everyone you see", the species would die out very soon. So evolution didn't favor the dying species, but the ones that had some kind of "moral compass", and this evolved to more advanced rules over time. And some parts of it has evolved into memes, like ethics in making contracts and dealings in business, and these meme rules doesn't work all over the world. Not every culture put the same emphasis on business ethics, and some put a lot into it. So the moral codes are part genetic and quite a bit "memetic". I'll agree with all of that, and add that many morals come from a mix of empathy and self preservation. I want to live, and take care of my family, and the best place to do that is in a society that does not condone murder and other such crimes. I also believe that people are basically good. Sure, some deny that and point out maybe a hundred or more people that were not basically good and could even be called evil, but they neglect to mention the BILLIONS of people that are basically good and wish to harm no one. It's not religion that makes these people good, it's that innate moral compass (or GPS), and as you say that compass has been molded over time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 With depictions such as these: Exodus 19 Be careful that you do not go up the mountain or touch the foot of it. Whoever touches the mountain shall surely be put to death. He shall surely be stoned or shot with arrows Deuteronomy 13 Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God Deuteronomy 17 If it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing [worshipping other gods] has been done in Israel, take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death. Joshua 7 Then Joshua, together with all Israel, took Achan son of Zerah, the silver, the robe, the gold wedge, his sons and daughters, his cattle, donkeys and sheep, his tent and all that he had, to the Valley of Achor. Joshua said, "Why have you brought this trouble on us? The LORD will bring trouble on you today." Then all Israel stoned him, and after they had stoned the rest, they burned them. Over Achan they heaped up a large pile of rocks, which remains to this day. Then the LORD turned from his fierce anger. This particular Yahweh diety has lost all rights to condemn anyone for immorality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 I really , REALLY don't get this "bible is my moral compass" thing. In order to get there, you have to ignore at least half of it. Shit, if you take the worst 1/3 of the bible, Yahweh is the worst tyrant the world has ever known. THE BIBLE IS OUR MORAL COMPASS. THE BIBLE IS OUR MORAL COMPASS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramen666 Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 With depictions such as these: Exodus 19 Be careful that you do not go up the mountain or touch the foot of it. Whoever touches the mountain shall surely be put to death. He shall surely be stoned or shot with arrows Deuteronomy 13 Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God Deuteronomy 17 If it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing [worshipping other gods] has been done in Israel, take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death. Joshua 7 Then Joshua, together with all Israel, took Achan son of Zerah, the silver, the robe, the gold wedge, his sons and daughters, his cattle, donkeys and sheep, his tent and all that he had, to the Valley of Achor. Joshua said, "Why have you brought this trouble on us? The LORD will bring trouble on you today." Then all Israel stoned him, and after they had stoned the rest, they burned them. Over Achan they heaped up a large pile of rocks, which remains to this day. Then the LORD turned from his fierce anger. This particular Yahweh diety has lost all rights to condemn anyone for immorality. The begs the question of why? These verses are in their vary own book and yet the claim God is 100% love and moral. Then us nonbelievers who have NO moral compass according to Christians. Why are we able to know what is in the Bible is plain out murder. I remember confronting my Christian friend when I was in the questioning stages. I showed him some example verses such as above and I said explain that. The following is an excerpt of my conservation with my commentary Him- "well this is a certain group of people he is talking to./ They are at war/" They are the enemies he said stuff like that Me- ...wait and you still say its right? Him- He is God he is not evil Me- so let me get this straight if God says dash a baby against a rock, ( I didn't quote the verse on pourpose) and kill him then it is ok since he is God and he is all good. Him- Well are view of good and bad is different from God's so it may not be the same so therfore what he is doing is good Me- I don't give a damn if Jesus was standing right here I would tell him he is wrong Him- God can't be wrong Me- Oh yeah he sure did a splendid job screwing humanity over when he knew Eve would eat the fruit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 Me- I don't give a damn if Jesus was standing right here I would tell him he is wrongHim- God can't be wrong And he says - naw, man. Nope. I just can't see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 That's because we do have a moral compass, but the religious don't. They have a set of laws they are to blindly follow under threat of a severe punishment. See alt.atheism quote of the month some time ago... "Morality is what guides you when there's neither promise of reward or fear of punishment, and when no one's watching. Christians have no morals. They just follow orders." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 See alt.atheism quote of the month some time ago... "Morality is what guides you when there's neither promise of reward or fear of punishment, and when no one's watching. Christians have no morals. They just follow orders." They said it much better that I could. I'll have to remember that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godlessgrrl Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 Ahh, but you see, we do indeed have a moral compass, because god gives us a moral compass, whether we know or believe it or not. He wrote it on our hearts. It says so in Romans. Checkmate!! What I find funny about this verse, on the infrequent occasions when I have seen Xians use it, is that it basically says that people don't actually need the Bible or Xianity to know right from wrong. It supports the idea that a sense of morality is something innate to humanity. So if you ever hear a Xian making the spurious claim that "our morals come from the Bible", they're full of it. They're contradicting their own Scriptchah. Not that Biblical morality is particularly exemplary anyway... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 Yeah, it's very contradictory from the fundy to say "atheists don't have any moral compass", but then "everyone have the morals in their heart from god", and then "you only know morals if you read the Bible"... Hey y'all fundies! Make up your frigging religious mind, will'ya! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Follier Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 This topic has been a source of contention between my Evangelical Baptist parents and myself. They are under the assumption that, since I'm not a Christian, I will have no way with which to guide the parenting of my children and, as a result, will not be able to instill any morals in them. They assume that since "Christ doesn't govern my actions then I have no way to define morality." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godlessgrrl Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 This topic has been a source of contention between my Evangelical Baptist parents and myself. They are under the assumption that, since I'm not a Christian, I will have no way with which to guide the parenting of my children and, as a result, will not be able to instill any morals in them. They assume that since "Christ doesn't govern my actions then I have no way to define morality." Then show them those verses from Romans. Tell them that you don't need Christ to govern your actions, because their god has already written morality on your heart. Their god says so, right in their holy book. If they protest, then tell them that they aren't very good Xians if they don't believe what their own Bible says. Then come back here and tell us how it went. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trancelation Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 The Bible, moral compass? More like moral decomposition. This all reminds me of a funny little anti-missionary story, one that really outlines the stupidity of Christian "morality". There was a little girl, name of Sally, and one day a missionary came up to her and asked if she had ever heard of Jesus Christ, who was also God. Sally said no, for she had not. This made the missionary very sad, and he told her that without God, Sally could not know right from wrong. Only by coming to God, he said, could Sally be a good person. Sally blinked. When the missionary asked her what was wrong, she said, "Sir, if I do not know good without God, then it is impossible for me to know good even with God. See, sir, in order to come to your God, I must make a personal judgment that your God is good, but you have already said that I do not know good. And since I do not know good, how do I know that God is good?" The response to that one, of course, is always, "Well, God imrpinted goodness on your heart," or some equally biologically retarded answer. As in all things, Christians want to have their cake and eat it, too. They want to say if you disagree with them, you go to Hell, yet if you do anything right, it is because of their God. Ha! Might as well give them our PIN numbers, while we're at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 Wonderful story Trance. It's reminds me of the story when my wife (many years ago back in Sweden) lost her driver license, and ordered a replacement. She got it in mail, and they post station needed an ID for her to get it. She didn't have any other than the driver license that was in the package, so without the package she couldn't get the package! So her mom had to come and vouch for her, and they still barely give it to her... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 This topic has been a source of contention between my Evangelical Baptist parents and myself. They are under the assumption that, since I'm not a Christian, I will have no way with which to guide the parenting of my children and, as a result, will not be able to instill any morals in them. They assume that since "Christ doesn't govern my actions then I have no way to define morality." I usually reply to something like that with; christians may have a moral compass, but they never use it. christians may have this christ guide their actions, but they ignore him. Our president, an upstanding christian, has had no problem what so ever lying to the American people. Then I ask why our prison system is full of christians and not Atheists? In rough numbers, christians make up at least 80% of the free population, but over 98% of the prison population. If being christian made you moral, and not being christian made one immoral, then those figures should be reversed. Don't let them give you that "they're not a "True christian" BS. All those christian prisoners believed in the christian god BEFORE they went it and it made no difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Hey y'all fundies! Make up your frigging religious mind, will'ya! Don't they first need to have a mind for that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Hey y'all fundies! Make up your frigging religious mind, will'ya! Don't they first need to have a mind for that? That's what I said... they need to make up one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Duh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramen666 Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 But my question still stands why is that? Why are we able to distinguish the evils, the murders, the hypocrisies within the Bible and the church and we are suppose to have no moral compass. However Christians who are suppose to have a moral compass because Gawd guides them can not see the hypocrisies are they that blinded by lies and brainwashed? I have a better moral compass not being a Christian, than when I was. ironic isn't it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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