Ouroboros Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 Then by this assessment God is not omnipotent. A minor spirit then, perhaps. At best worthy only of recognition, but not of worship. If he's limited in redeeming us from disasters and illnesses, is he equally limited in his "blessings"? In my view, not a good case to present in defending the existence of God. Why believe in a weak God? You just gotta love these paradoxes! Actually the only viable idea of a God is the miniature creator god. A god that wasn't bigger than a singularity, didn't have consciousness or will, but only high state of energy and it was processing by whatever kind of interactions this energy could do, and suddenly exploded into existence... and hence the universe. We are god. The universe is god. Everything lives, breathes, thinks and exists because of god and as god, because god is nature, nature is god, and we're all part of it, we and everything is God. God thinks, because we think. God talks because we talk. So in this sense God exists, but only as a non-entity and not separated from the universe. The forces of nature is the omnipotence we talk about. All possible knowledge about the universe and existence is omniscience. All that exists is part of all there is, so omnipresence is because it's all here. Is this what we'd call Pantheism or maybe Naturalism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Follier Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 I've always hated this term. What is the motivation behind it? When many unnamed, seemingly meaningless deaths, diseases or accidents occur, "god works in myserious ways." I alway wanted to answer, "Why the FUCK is that?" Why does mystery have to surround god? Is it perhaps, that he isn't there in the first place? Christians use this phrase, in my opinion, because they are so self-dilluded that they feel like they are of high enough importance that God has to directly have some form of interaction/intervention in their lives. If they don't understand what's going on in their lives... well, then, that's just God working only in ways that our feeble human brains can't comprehend... but he's there, mind you! Right... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 And again we touch upon God's omniscience, if God knew Satan would lose eventually, then why would God go through with letting the innocent be hurt? He could have told Satan "you're stupid, you know I win so give it up." And the next problem too with the story of Job is that Satan supposedly was thrown out of Heaven, so what is he doing there? Well-put The book of Job is one of the most repulsive parts of the Babble. In it you plainly read of a god who cares only for his own ego, and is willing to subject innocent beings to torment and suffering to further gratiate that ego. His immense need to be glorified outweighs all other moral considerations, most especially that of compassion. During my deconversion, the callousness of God in regards to Job's suffering and the reasons why he let Job be tormented were helpful in seeing the truth behind the god posited by Xianity. It's very easy to compare God to Cthluhu - both are power-hungry egomaniacs whose followers are convinced they're doing right when they are clearly serving something wicked. How could one trust one's happiness and safety to God when he is depicted as he is in Job? Good thing God doesn't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piprus Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 How could one trust one's happiness and safety to God when he is depicted as he is in Job? Good thing God doesn't exist. Truly comforting words, Varokhar. One of the best feelings about life I ever had was reaching the conclusion that God doesn't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
currentchristian Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 CC, Yet it doesn't match the dialogue between God and Satan, when God allows Satan through a bet (God the gambler) to hurt and even kill people. It might be argued that God is only a passive participant in the event, but even in court today, it is not accepted as an excuse. It would be called something like conspiracy to murder, and is punishable just as much as the one holding the knife (or gun etc). And again we touch upon God's omniscience, if God knew Satan would lose eventually, then why would God go through with letting the innocent be hurt? He could have told Satan "you're stupid, you know I win so give it up." And the next problem too with the story of Job is that Satan supposedly was thrown out of Heaven, so what is he doing there? You are right. Kushner's view is just one way to look at it and perhaps not very satisfying. The other is that Job is a story, a parable, by some priest or prophet or rabbi to try to teach his twist on God and why good people suffer, and he's wrong and the God he creates is not very trustworthy. Or maybe Job was right when his wife told him to "curse God and die": "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him." -CC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
currentchristian Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 ... Rabbi Kushner's conclusion in your excerpt is compelling if not inspirational, but here again. God was not without the power to prevent Job's disaster. In fact, he allowed it. As it was taught to me as a fundie baptist, God allowed Satan to smite Job to test his faith, and only restored Job when he passed the test. It's an archetype for Jesus' teaching for christians to hold fast despite persecution and suffering. God bears ultimate responsibility, if he is indeed God. Why cannot God be totally powerful AND totally good? Well, God allowed the event, that's for sure. In fact, God brought Job to Satan's attention, if I remember the opening correctly, something like, "Have you considered my servant Job?" The Job story teaches me that in the end it'll all pan out. I know, I know, Marx would like that ditty of opium. But that's what it teaches me and I do believe that in the end it all works out. -CC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
currentchristian Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 ... The book of Job is one of the most repulsive parts of the Babble. In it you plainly read of a god who cares only for his own ego, and is willing to subject innocent beings to torment and suffering to further gratiate that ego. His immense need to be glorified outweighs all other moral considerations, most especially that of compassion. During my deconversion, the callousness of God in regards to Job's suffering and the reasons why he let Job be tormented were helpful in seeing the truth behind the god posited by Xianity. It's very easy to compare God to Cthluhu - both are power-hungry egomaniacs whose followers are convinced they're doing right when they are clearly serving something wicked. How could one trust one's happiness and safety to God when he is depicted as he is in Job? Good thing God doesn't exist. It can be argued that God does not come off very well in Job. No doubt. We will be reading this book in my Hebrew Bible class later in the semester. I'll get back to this thread then with my up-to-the-minute thoughts!! -CC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 CC, cool, you're studying some of this stuff right now. Maybe we'll see a new Dr Bob Price here in the future. He started that way too, theological seminaries and such, and is a non-believer today, pretty much because of it (if I understand it correctly). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piprus Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 It can be argued that God does not come off very well in Job. No doubt. We will be reading this book in my Hebrew Bible class later in the semester. I'll get back to this thread then with my up-to-the-minute thoughts!! I hope you'll do that, CC. The reason I do is that 'way back when I was in college, I took as an elective a course in the OT. It was actually a philosophy course, and the first time I was exposed to the OT as philosophy, theology, and literature, as opposed to the literal "Word of God" from my fundie origins. It was a very eye-opening course. The same is true of Ecclesiastes, and I hope you'll open up some talk on that as well ("Vanity, vanity...a striving after wind") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
currentchristian Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 ... The same is true of Ecclesiastes, and I hope you'll open up some talk on that as well ("Vanity, vanity...a striving after wind") Ecclesiastes has been, for many years, my favorite read in the OT. I bet I've read it ten times and will be doing so again in this same class! You might be interested in Rabbi Kushner's book based around Ecclesiastes: When All You've Ever Wanted Isn't Enough. -CC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 I've always hated this term. What is the motivation behind it? When many unnamed, seemingly meaningless deaths, diseases or accidents occur, "god works in myserious ways." I alway wanted to answer, "Why the FUCK is that?" Why does mystery have to surround god? Is it perhaps, that he isn't there in the first place? As I see it, there are three possibilities: 1. There is no god and this phrase is used to explain the unexplainable, to offer solace and psychological comfort. 2. There is a god and this god does work in mysterious ways that we simply are not privy to at this time. 3. There is a god and this god is limited in the capacity to act and orchestrate, for many cosmic reasons we know nothing of, and people employ "god works in mysterious ways" to explain what's going on. I choose #3 generally and #2 occasionally. -CC in MA I found the best answer is that: No one can know the ultimate mystery, so why claim any knowledge either way about the way God works? All we know is that there is a life force...there is something that lends itself towards life. What more can we say? When one says "god works in mysterious ways", they are correct and should always say that because it is the ultimate mystery. They should never praise God for this happening or wonder why God allowed something bad to happen. Here they are assuming to know the mind of God. What appears good to us, may appear horrible to someone else. We can't judge any occurance as good or bad in a transcendent sense. Of course, we can on an individual basis, but not so much as not to notice what may have a bad outcome for someone else. As Jesus says, "judge not lest ye be judged." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 Job is taken by most to be fiction, not literal. It's a morality tale. Certainly, the author believed that God and Satan got together now and then and talked things over and made deals to see what was really going on down below. But this is what the author believed. Is it true? Do God and Satan have lunch once a month? I don't know. This goes along with my post above. Job was satisfied with God's (symbology here) answer that both good and evil are part of creation. It rains on the just and the unjust. God was pissed with all the others that were trying to justify what happened to Job. It wasn't personal, it is just the way life is. I find meaning in that story. Remove the old idea of a god somewhere that should play favorties and you arrive at the truth. What happened to this character (Job) is no different than what happens to most people. This causes them to say, "God works in mysterious ways". This is just the way life is. God isn't to blame unless you have an idea of what a perfect God would be. God is no more than life itself, IMO. How can we question life? Life depends on eating other life. One has to accept that. Mythology provides a way to accept it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 God is up there, as I see it, but we are the agents of our lives and, yes, as you so aptly put it Mythra, "Shit happens." It just does. God is with us when shit happens (my view), but God is not the author of the shit. As I see it. But the OT clearly states the evil was sent by God. It states God creates evil. Are you saying the bible is false? It states God makes the shit happen, and then you say God is with us (presumably in support) while creating evil in the first place? I don't get it. I claim agnosticism on this. I don't know. On one hand, God is all good and every good and perfect gift is from above. On the other hand, he can tempt: Why else would Jesus instruct his followers to pray that they not be led into temptation? These inconsistencies do not trouble me, in the least. Nothing in life is without inconsistencies and exceptions (ever study English grammar?)and contradictions. I fall back on "God is love" and "love is from God" and we are to "love one another" as the Prime Directives. I certainly don't have all the answers about sub-Prime Directives. Faith provides for me the confidence to say "I don't know, I don't know, I don't know" about a lot of things. -CC in MA The conflict comes from a dualistic understanding of God. God can't be evil and good, so the devil is created to remove that duality from God. God was telling Job, and other places, that he is both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
currentchristian Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 Notblindedbytheblight: A powerful reminder of how little we really do know. Thank you. -CC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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