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Old Age In The Ot


Amanda
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I'm hoping someone can explain how people could be attributed as living so long in the OT. How could Adam live to be 930 years old? Seth 505 years old? Methuselah 969 years old? Noah was supposedly 600 years old when the flood happened. Etc...

 

Could it be they were initially on a lunar calendar of some sort? Or do their years include their male generations? Was this part of a Pagan myth designation for some reason? Can anyone help me out in understanding their age designation? I know the life span was to change after Noah's flood, but was that in regards to changing their calender's format or what? :shrug:

 

:thanks:

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There was a canopy of water around the earth which is also the water that was used for the flood. It protected people from the sun and aging and kept an ideal temperature on earth at all times. Also there was a much higher concentration of oxygen in the atmosphere. This allowed people to heal much faster and to keep their bodies in excellent conditions.

After the flood, there was no more water around the planet and much less oxygen in the atmosphere, so the lifespan started decreasing.

 

... :Wendywhatever:

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I'm hoping someone can explain how people could be attributed as living so long in the OT. How could Adam live to be 930 years old? Seth 505 years old? Methuselah 969 years old? Noah was supposedly 600 years old when the flood happened. Etc...

 

Could it be they were initially on a lunar calendar of some sort? Or do their years include their male generations? Was this part of a Pagan myth designation for some reason? Can anyone help me out in understanding their age designation? I know the life span was to change after Noah's flood, but was that in regards to changing their calender's format or what? :shrug:

 

:thanks:

Shoot, Nick's answers all sound pretty darn solid to me. :HaHa:

 

Have you ever seen the Sumerian King's list? They claim to have lived up to thousands of years (you have to divide some by thirds as I recall but even then it's still thousands). This far outdoes the biblical ages, no? The answer is then...(drum roll)...they simply didn't. Actually a few of the biblical figures are on the Sumerian King's list (with different ages but still they are there).

 

mwc

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Wouldn't a vapor canopy have caused the earth to boil? And wasn't there some calculation errors from one language to the next (I believe it was Akkadian to Hebrew, and possibly others) that account for the superhuman lifespans of old testament figures?

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Thank you everyone! :thanks:

 

Nick, I was in absolute awe when I read your post! I immediately looked at your designation of Gods under your avatar to see if you were a fundy or something. :HaHa: Finding you have no God... I was really wondering about what you said! How could that be???

 

However, in my research, I have found that to be a theory that some people are accepting out there! It is found here. Yet, I have researched the manuscript from which the KJV was taken, and it says it did rain in Genesis. That and scientific evidnce seems to negate that theory anyway. Thanks for letting me know that theory is out there!

 

Shoot, Nick's answers all sound pretty darn solid to me. :HaHa:

:phew: Thanks MWC... he had me going there for a minute! I'm sorry to say that it is an explanation out there though. Hard to believe that some people accept it. Nick did summerize the theory very accurately.

Have you ever seen the Sumerian King's list? They claim to have lived up to thousands of years (you have to divide some by thirds as I recall but even then it's still thousands). This far outdoes the biblical ages, no? The answer is then...(drum roll)...they simply didn't. Actually a few of the biblical figures are on the Sumerian King's list (with different ages but still they are there).

 

mwc

MWC, why would they do this? Obviously there were the generations to tell their offspring this was clearly lying. It seems most of us today have a tendency to say we are younger, and don't even get by with that! How could someone keep a straight face and claim to be hundreds or thousands of years old? The same way they claim to be the son of a God? They do lie. :rolleyes:

 

Wouldn't a vapor canopy have caused the earth to boil? And wasn't there some calculation errors from one language to the next (I believe it was Akkadian to Hebrew, and possibly others) that account for the superhuman lifespans of old testament figures?

Dhampir, I think you are on to something! I checked it out in the Wikipedia here and it seems to say some of what you suggest, yet incomplete. It seems to say the flood lasted a hundred years! I'm sure I don't understand it correctly. I did some research on the Akkadian/Sumerian calendars, yet from what I've read, difficult to understand because the language of the article assumes I'm more familiar with the topic, still doesn't indicate the why someone is designated as haveing such a long life span.

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MWC, why would they do this? Obviously there were the generations to tell their offspring this was clearly lying. It seems most of us today have a tendency to say we are younger, and don't even get by with that! How could someone keep a straight face and claim to be hundreds or thousands of years old? The same way they claim to be the son of a God? They do lie. :rolleyes:

I can't say but I imagine that it had to do with tying themselves back the original people that came from space to earth and that long lives maybe related to good living somehow (like they must have been gods, related to them, or were blessed by them because look how long they lived)? I'm really just guessing though.

 

As for the list itself, here it is with some extra info I "borrowed" (stole) from a guy who knew a whole bunch about it. He gets cited as "guy I stole it from" (I was really quite sloppy about a lot of this):

 

This list is compiled from the contemporary accounts of the inhabitants of Mesopotamia themselves. Other attempts to fit certain of these Kings into timeframes has been done by either Radiocarbon dating artifacts or by chronological dating methods. In both cases this has led to very varied dates that usually differ by up to 300 years in either direction. Firstly because Radiocarbon dating is not very accurate to a certain year and secondly because chronological dating is innefective on an archaeological site where artifacts were used again and again by successive generations so that an artifact manufactured around 2500bce can be found in a layer dating to 2000bce. So therefore this list is compiled backwards using the length of stated rule of each ruler from very well established dates, in this case the foundation of the Babylonian Empire in 1894bce.

 

the reason for so much confusion for the dates on the original list is because it appears like this in its original format:-

 

40-94. After the flood had swept over, and the kingship had descended from heaven, the kingship was in Kiš. In Kiš, Ĝušur became king; he ruled for 1200 years. Kullassina-bēl ruled for {960} {(ms. P2+L2 has instead:) 900} years. Nanĝišlišma ruled for (ms. P2+L2 has:) {670} (?) years. En-taraḫ-ana ruled for (ms. P2+L2 has:) {420} years

 

 

no attempt has ever been made to ratify this messy way of annotating the kings of mesopotamia as for a long time it wasn't understood that the Sumerians used base 60 to annotate numerics which left them having reigns of an impossible amount of years such as "Ĝušur became king; he ruled for 1200 years." whereas when Sumerian power waned and semites became kings they used for them the more traditional base ten system which we still use today.

 

That the sumerians used 60 in this manner is irrefutable and you need only look at the face of a clock to see the truth of this as the system that we still use today to record time came from this very same ancient source.

 

This one small fact has changed the face of civilisation as we know it by leading to the fiction perpetrated in the old testament leading the Hebrews to claim that they too had mighty leaders who ruled for hundreds of years, such as Methuselah who reportedly reached an age of 969 years. In base 60 this means that he was in fact just over 16 years old at the time of his death.

This error was then in turn overlooked by Bishop James Usher when he compiled his biblical chronology to work out the total age of the earth believing it to be created in 4004bce in 6 days by a guy called simply God.

In addition it is probably worth mentioning here that there are 23 kings of Kish (Kiš) and 23 Biblical patriarchs. this is not a coincedence. It is in fact a very early form of plaguiarism.

 

As it turns out the god of Bishops Ushers faith was based on the Hebrew God YHWH, and now in turn it seem that the Hebrew God YHWH was based in part on the Mesopotamian god Enlil who was in fact based on a number of early ruling Kings who were fully human. In other words the name Enlil was an epithet which meant "high king". Ushers chronology was used to change the face of the world and the belief system of the more civilised members of society at that time. It held back advances in science which contradicted it and was used as a form of established racism to denegrate races who not knowing the word of the one true God were relegated to "conquered peoples" and exploited sometimes in a most horrible fashion.

 

so this is a list of high kings in the same way that the Egyptian king list only notates those believed to hold the spirit of Horus and in the same way that the ancient Irish used the term "Ard Rí na hÉireann" to seperate the King who was God from the simple feudal type vassal king who was not. This is supported by the fact that there are many Kings of Mesopotamia not mentioned on this list yet who are well established by archaeology to have controlled certain areas. Only in truly ancient times did this type of kingship flourish. No one would argue with a king who was God and this is the glue that held early civilisation together in the first place

 

the numbers after each Kings name are

Stated Length of rule: the number that appears on the list

Base 60 : the same number in base 60

Base 10 : the same number in base 10

Chronology : the date of the Kings succession

Race : the race of the king Su - Sumerian /Se - Semite

 

 

Kiš

Ĝušur 1200 1200 20 3592bce Su

Kullassina-bēl 960 960 16 3572bce Su

Nanĝišlišma 670 670 11 3556bce Su

En-tara-ana 420 420 7 3545bce Su

Babum 300 300 5 3538bce Su

Puannum 840 840 14 3533bce Su

Kalibum 960 960 16 3519bce Su

Kalūmum 900 900 15 3503bce Su

Zuqāqīp 900 900 15 3488bce Su

Atab 600 600 10 3473bce Su

Mašda 840 840 14 3463bce Su

Arwium 720 720 12 3449bce Su

Etana, the shepherd 1500 1500 25 3437bce Su

Bali 410 410 6 1/2 3412bce Su

En-me-nuna 660 660 11 3406bce Su

Melem-Kiš 900 900 15 3395bce Su

Barsal-nuna 1200 1200 20 3380bce Su

Zamug 140 140 2 1/3 3360bce Su

Tizqār 305 305 5 3357bce Su

Ilku 900 900 15 3352bce Su

Iltasadum 1200 1200 20 3327bce Su

En-me-barage-si 900 900 15 3307bce Su

Aga 625 625 10 1/2 3292bce Su

 

E-Ana

Meš-ki-aĝ-gašer 325 325 5 1/2 3281bce Su

Enmerkar 420 420 7 3275bce Su

Lugalbanda 1200 1200 20 3268bce Su

Dumuzid the fisherman 110 110 2 3248bce Su

Gilgamesh 126 126 2 3246bce Su

Ur-Nungal 30 1800 30 3244bce Se

Udul-kalama 15 900 15 3214bce Su

Lā-ba’šum 9 540 9 3199bce Su

En-nun-tara 8 480 8 3190bce Se

Meš-e 36 2160 36 3182bce Se

 

Urim

Meš-Ane-pada 80 80 1 1/3 3146bce Su

Meš-ki-aĝ-Nanna 36 36 7 months 3144bce Su

Elulu 25 25 5 months 3143bce Su

Balulu 36 36 7 months 3143bce Su

 

Awan

King 1 120 120 2 3142bce N/A

King 2 120 120 2 3140bce N/A

King 3 116 116 2 3138bce N/A

 

Kiš

Susuda, the fuller 201 201 3 1/3 3136bce Su

Dadasig 81 81 1 1/3 3135bce Su

Mamagal, the boatman 360 360 6 3134bce Su

Kalbum 195 195 3 1/3 3128bce Su

Tuge 360 360 6 3125bce Su

Men-nuna 180 180 3 3119bce Su

Lugalĝu 420 420 7 3116bce Su

 

Amazi

Hadaniš 360 360 6 3109bce Su

 

Unug

En-šag-kuš-ana 60 60 1 3103bce Su

Lugal-ure/Lugal-kiniše-dudu 120 120 2 3102bce Su

Argandea 7 420 7 3100bce Su

 

Urim

Nanni 54 3240 54 3093bce Se

Meš-ki-aĝ-Nanna 48 2880 48 3039bce Se

Unknown 2 120 2 2991bce Se

 

Adab

Lugal-Ane-mundu 90 90 1 1/2 2989bce Su

 

Mari

Anbu 30 90 30 2987bce Se

Anba 17 1020 17 2957bce Se

Bazi the leatherworker 30 1800 30 2940bce Se

Zizi the fuller 20 1200 20 2910bce Se

Limer, gudug priest 30 1800 30 2890bce Se

Šarrum-īter 9 540 9 2860bce Se

 

Kiš

Kug-Bau (fem) 100 100 1 1/2 2851bce Su

 

Akšak,

Unzi 30 1800 30 2849bce Se

Undalulu 12 720 12 2819bce Se

Urur 6 360 6 2807bce Se

Puzur-Nira 20 1200 20 2801bce Se

Išu-Il 24 1440 24 2781bce Se

Šu-Suen 24 1440 24 2757bce Se

 

Kiš,

PuzurSuen son kugbau 25 1500 25 2733bce Se

Ur-Zababa 400 400 6 1/2 2708bce Su

 

Unug

Lugal-zage-si 34 2040 34 2700bce Se

 

Agade

Sargon 56 3360 56 2666bce Se

Rimus 15 900 15 2610bce Se

Man-ištiššu 15 900 15 2595bce Se

Narām-Suen 56 3360 56 2580bce Se

Šar-kali-šarrī 25 1500 25 2524bce Se

Irgigi 1 60 1 2499bce Se

Imi 1 60 1 2498bce Se

Nanum 1 60 1 2497bce Se

Illulu 2 120 2 2496bce Se

Dudu 21 1260 21 2495bce Se

Šu-Durul 18 1080 18 2474bce Se

 

Unug

Ur-niĝin 30 1800 30 2456bce Se

Ur-gigir 15 900 15 2426bce Se

Kuda 6 360 6 2411bce Se

Puzur-ilī 20 1200 20 2405bce Se

Ur-Utu 25 1500 25 2385bce Se

Lugal-melem 7 420 7 2360bce Se

 

Gutium

No king 5 300 5 2353bce N/A

Inkišuš 7 420 7 2348bce Se

Zarlagab 7 420 7 2341bce Se

Inimabakeš 5 300 5 2334bce Se

Duga 6 360 6 2329bce Se

Igešauš 6 360 6 2323bce Se

Yarlagab 15 900 15 2317bce Se

Ibate 3 180 3 2302bce Se

Apilkin 3 180 3 2299bce Se

Lā-erabum 2 120 2 2296bce Se

Irarum 2 120 2 2294bce Se

Ibranum 1 60 1 2292bce Se

Ablum 2 120 2 2291bce Se

Puzur-Suen 7 420 7 2289bce Se

Yarlaganda 7 420 7 2282bce Se

Tirigan 40 days 10 40 days 2275bce Se

 

Unug

Utu-eĝal 427 7 7 2275bce Su

 

Urim

Ur-Namma 18 1080 18 2268bce Se

Šulgi, 58 3480 58 2250bce Se

Amar-Suena 25 1500 25 2192bce Se

Šu-Suen 9 540 9 2167bce Se

Ibbi-Suen 25 1500 25 2159bce Se

 

Isin

Išbi-Erra 33 1980 33 2134bce Se

Šu-ilīšu 20 1200 20 2101bce Se

Iddin-Dagan 25 1500 25 2081bce Se

Išme-Dagan 20 1200 20 2056bce Se

Lipit-Eštar 11 660 11 2036bce Se

Ur-Ninurta 28 1680 28 2025bce Se

Būr-Suen 21 1260 21 1997bce Se

Lipit-Enlil 5 300 5 1976bce Se

Erra-imitti 8 480 8 1971bce Se

Enlil-bāni 24 1440 24 1963bce Se

Zambiya 3 180 3 1939bce Se

Iter-piša 4 240 4 1936bce Se

Ur-du-kuga 4 240 4 1932bce Se

Suen-magir 11 660 11 1928bce Se

Damiq-ilišu 23 1380 23 1917bce Se

 

 

there are two very important characters in this list for those more biblically minded among you.

 

The first is Abraham and the second his only real son Ishmael.

Neither of them were from "Ur of the Chaldees" which didn't exist until a thousand years after the claimed death of Abraham in the Bible anyway and neither of them ever left their home on a quest instructed by god.

 

Basically because they were regarded as Gods in every sense of the word anyway and there are existing sumerian texts that illustrate this which I will post if anyone is interested of indeed if anyone can point out which two names on the list represent them

 

the list is compiled from three seperate king lists so is accurate in either direction to +/- 300 years.

in future I will be able to bring it down to +/- 50 years but I am very busy working on something else right now and thought some posters might like to see a preliminary rough version of this special chronology

I cleaned it up a bit but it's pretty much the original message in every way. In another little bit I didn't post the same guy explains that the Sumerian's used base 60 in their calculations because they were aware of circles and such so they divided into it to derive their bases.

 

mwc

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Wouldn't a vapor canopy have caused the earth to boil? And wasn't there some calculation errors from one language to the next (I believe it was Akkadian to Hebrew, and possibly others) that account for the superhuman lifespans of old testament figures?

No! Not the flood again! :)

 

A vapor canopy that contained enough water to cover Everest would be too thick to allow light through. It would also raise the pressure at ground level to crushing levels (you'd be under miles of water after all). Even half as much water would still be deadly. The water canopy is unworkable.

 

If you read the thing I posted to Amanda you'll see that the Sumerian's used base 60 in their texts. This would cause a problem if not taken into account (or if just miscalculated). It would be easier to just make up numbers I would think. ;)

 

mwc

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Finding you have no God... I was really wondering about what you said! How could that be???

 

Haha, I was just joking. Have you ever watched Kent Hovind's seminars? You should look for them on Youtube, he talks about this kind of stuff.

He also says that Adam was the only human pre programmed directly from the hand of god. We are a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy... therefore each generation becomes more imperfect, but humans were originally meant to live 900 years or more.

 

Hovind's an idiot, but his stuff is hilarious. You should watch it. He also talks about dinosaurs, and come on, who doesnt like dinos.

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I can't say but I imagine that it had to do with tying themselves back the original people that came from space to earth and that long lives maybe related to good living somehow (like they must have been gods, related to them, or were blessed by them because look how long they lived)? I'm really just guessing though.

MWC, wow! Now you said that like it was just a normal thing to say! :eek:

May I ask what original people that came from space to earth?

 

<snip> As for the list itself, here it is with some extra info I "borrowed" (stole) from a guy who knew a whole bunch about it. He gets cited as "guy I stole it from" (I was really quite sloppy about a lot of this):

 

 

<snip> I cleaned it up a bit but it's pretty much the original message in every way. In another little bit I didn't post the same guy explains that the Sumerian's used base 60 in their calculations because they were aware of circles and such so they divided into it to derive their bases.

 

mwc

MWC... that seems to clear it up! That makes sense, that they just used the base 60 method for those they wanted to denote as Gods. It also clears up why some people lived a long time and others did not. The guy from which you cited the source, seems to be very knowledgeable, and thank you very much for sharing this with me. :thanks:

 

I couldn't tell which guy was Abraham, I'm guessing the first Semite listed? Although, your source did say that he was not from Ur, so perhaps not?

Ur-Nungal 30 1800 30 3244bce Se

 

And I was also amazed that he claims that Abraham had only one son, Ishmael. Do you think that Isaac was just another myth interjected, and if so, when? I've heard the conflict between Sarah and Hagar because of Isaac and Ishmael was the start of the Jewish and Muslim conflict, and they've been fighting ever since. Not true? And the OT even says that after Sarah died, Abraham had children with other concubines in which he sent them to the far east. Not true also?

 

Your resource you've shared has really helped me out a lot! His theory in the dating of lifespans seems to make the most sense. :thanks:

 

Haha, I was just joking. Have you ever watched Kent Hovind's seminars? You should look for them on Youtube, he talks about this kind of stuff.

He also says that Adam was the only human pre programmed directly from the hand of god. We are a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy... therefore each generation becomes more imperfect, but humans were originally meant to live 900 years or more.

 

Hovind's an idiot, but his stuff is hilarious. You should watch it. He also talks about dinosaurs, and come on, who doesnt like dinos.

Nick, I didn't know what to think! Good joke! :HaHa: I never watch any of those shows like that and had never heard that theory... but I knew it was not correct. Once I saw MWC's post to you, I knew you were kidding. Yet, when I was researching something on Dhampir's theory... I was surprised to find the one you suggested in jest, is out there! :ohmy:

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MWC, wow! Now you said that like it was just a normal thing to say! :eek:

May I ask what original people that came from space to earth?

Are you really ready to receive the mysteries? :scratch::HaHa:

 

Yeah, I said it like that because it's kind of matter of fact in the Sumerian circles I guess (at least I took it that way). :shrug:

 

Okay, if you're into the paranormal and all that you'll love this stuff in a much different way than I do. People have really taken to this stuff who believe we've been "visited." It makes it really difficult to separate fact from fiction unfortunately.

 

So there's a planet named Nibiru that is also associated with the Babylonian god Marduk. It appears to be our planet Jupiter. However, the Sumerian's think that it's the planet that is the true origin of life. There's a word (annakim or something...sorry) that translates roughly to "those who came from heaven to earth." I believe a version of this word is even in the OT (I want to say they became angels or demons...whichever they very likely took it from the Babylonians while in captivity). Since they think this planet crosses paths (as I recall) with Earth every so often, and this planet is literally "heaven," then their gods came from heaven to earth when we last crossed paths. I think they believed that we could cross over again when the planets crossed again in the future. The original kings, I think, were the gods from the planet and they mixed with us down here and that's all on the king's list. It's my understanding that in paintings that when you see someone who is a different color, like blue (really a different color), that indicates their "alien" origin. So the kings would get that color to show their mixed blood and special lineage.

 

That's the basic gist of the story as I remember it.

 

Now if you go looking for this on the web remember that you'll find about a million UFO sites and other things like that instead of actual sound information. I'm sure I (might) have some (or did prior to that crash way back) bookmarks that I can share if you're interested. People have latched onto this story and they believe in this rogue planet and believe it's coming back (I think every 3600 years...so anytime now like everything else).

 

The Sumerian's were a very intelligent people so I don't let what people today have done to their beliefs tarnish my view of them. :)

 

mwc

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I couldn't tell which guy was Abraham, I'm guessing the first Semite listed? Although, your source did say that he was not from Ur, so perhaps not?
Ur-Nungal 30 1800 30 3244bce Se

 

And I was also amazed that he claims that Abraham had only one son, Ishmael. Do you think that Isaac was just another myth interjected, and if so, when? I've heard the conflict between Sarah and Hagar because of Isaac and Ishmael was the start of the Jewish and Muslim conflict, and they've been fighting ever since. Not true? And the OT even says that after Sarah died, Abraham had children with other concubines in which he sent them to the far east. Not true also?

 

Your resource you've shared has really helped me out a lot! His theory in the dating of lifespans seems to make the most sense. :thanks:

If I'm not mistaken the two we're looking for are:

Iddin-Dagan 25 1500 25 2081bce Se

Išme-Dagan 20 1200 20 2056bce Se

 

We're playing the "name game" here so we'd need to translate the part before the dash to the right language (English for us) and the part after the dash to the proper "thing" (usually a god). So Išme becomes Ishma and Dagan becomes El. Ishma-El. Ta-da. Iddin would be, I guess, Abram-Dagan? He never became Abram-El though so you'd have to ask a real archaeologist at this point. :) From what I have seen it's not always a one-to-one thing especially when you're starting your own "story" like the Hebrews were doing (or there was a translation error or any number of reasons).

 

However, what this person is claiming is not all that crazy. I've read it quite a few places with even a number of Jewish scholars agreeing to it. The patriarchs, meaning pretty much everyone up to David (and even David and Solomon are on shaky ground), are considered to be largely invented or borrowed from other stories. Nearly everything up until the book of Judges is questionable...and even then Judges contradicts, I believe it's Chronicles, but still Judges is a good place to start looking for real history.

 

So what do I think? That the story was borrowed while the Jews were in captivity. They invented a story unique to themselves to create a social identity and they used Isaac to replace Ishmael. The Muslims had no clue when they came along and took from the Jews that Ishmael was any more or less real than Isaac. He was just the "other" son in the story and, by chance, he had an entitlement they could grab hold of to justify their religion.

 

As you can see that if this is the story of Abraham, he was a very powerful man. A king of a mighty nation. Rich and powerful. So was his son. The bible indicates that Abraham was rich and powerful too considering the property he had. So it seems odd that at the approximate time and place in history that the bible has Abram and Ishma-deity running around there just happens to be an Abram and Ishma-(different)deity ruling team in the same general area.

 

It just seems odd that the stories in the OT parallel the stories of more ancient cultures so well. Especially the stories that the Jews might have come into contact with in Babylon during captivity.

 

mwc

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<snip> So there's a planet named Nibiru that is also associated with the Babylonian god Marduk. It appears to be our planet Jupiter. However, the Sumerian's think that it's the planet that is the true origin of life.

 

<snip> The Sumerian's were a very intelligent people so I don't let what people today have done to their beliefs tarnish my view of them. :)

 

MWC, I can see a common belief of people/gods coming from another planet. It is still around. I was beginning to think you may have had the same thought. :ohmy: Glad you cleared that up. :HaHa:

 

However, the impact of the asteroid Chixlub has had on our development does seem remarkable. I understand the irridium, a layer of it deposited all over the world from its collision, has some speculation to effect DNA. So perhaps we did get a little help from space. :shrug:

 

I agree about the Sumerians being very intelligent. Wow! They invented the wheel, written language, and figured out the earth was round by the lunar eclipse! I'm sure they did lots more.

 

If I'm not mistaken the two we're looking for are:

Iddin-Dagan 25 1500 25 2081bce Se

Išme-Dagan 20 1200 20 2056bce Se

 

I assume you're correct about this. Abram would have been 25 years old, having Ishme. However, it seems he would have had more than one child. And, perhaps the first male was suppose to be the most important, and the second one or subsequent children not recorded? It seems to me that this list has no consecutive similar names more than twice, although I did see 'Suen' listed multiple times.

However, what this person is claiming is not all that crazy.

I'd certainly never describe this person as crazy! He certainly seems like he questions everything and is NOT relying on what has become popularly accepted. Yet, what I have learned quite well from this site is to consider the inclinations of the researcher, because they have a tendency to find what they are seeking. It was a good piece of advice to me coming on here as a Christian, yet I've found it can work both ways. :Look:

I've read it quite a few places with even a number of Jewish scholars agreeing to it. The patriarchs, meaning pretty much everyone up to David (and even David and Solomon are on shaky ground), are considered to be largely invented or borrowed from other stories. Nearly everything up until the book of Judges is questionable...and even then Judges contradicts, I believe it's Chronicles, but still Judges is a good place to start looking for real history.

C'mon MWC... do you really think it borrowed or embellished? Even our history books today are so slanted by the author and being politically correct in their country.... what will the future say about us? Having said that, I still think there is some element of truth. I suppose we have the benefit of having written records of all the cultures putting their slant on it too. You know the old saying, 'There's his side, there's her side, and then there's the truth.' Could we look at all sides and come up with the truth? :shrug:

So what do I think? That the story was borrowed while the Jews were in captivity. They invented a story unique to themselves to create a social identity and they used Isaac to replace Ishmael. The Muslims had no clue when they came along and took from the Jews that Ishmael was any more or less real than Isaac. He was just the "other" son in the story and, by chance, he had an entitlement they could grab hold of to justify their religion.

I can definitely see merit in that scenario. Although, there is a theory that the Jews were not really 'slaves' to Egypt, but more like indentured servants in that they were bagabonds solicited as workers, who opted out of their commitment to do the job. Perhaps the extent of abuse to these people has become a bit exaggerated in the Moses story. IDK. Your theory can't be discarded, as if that were the case.... it worked. :wink:

As you can see that if this is the story of Abraham, he was a very powerful man. A king of a mighty nation. Rich and powerful. So was his son. The bible indicates that Abraham was rich and powerful too considering the property he had. So it seems odd that at the approximate time and place in history that the bible has Abram and Ishma-deity running around there just happens to be an Abram and Ishma-(different)deity ruling team in the same general area.

That seems to support the idea that Ishma was expelled as the OT states. Another mother jealous of the other child could have caused this, and Abram loved Sarai immensely, as she was very beautiful... if it is true they visited Egypt and the king was attracted to her... and is how they obtained their wealth. Sarai wielding her influence could have eliminated the barrier of her son getting the whole inheritance. As in our history books of today, isn't it hard to tell which scenario to believe?

It just seems odd that the stories in the OT parallel the stories of more ancient cultures so well. Especially the stories that the Jews might have come into contact with in Babylon during captivity.

I think many stories in the bible paralell other stories in the bible! History does seem to have a way of repeating itself. It's coincidental that you say that, because I've been thinking recently how some new actors are just taking the place of older ones... such as Jerry Lewis to Jim Carey, Mae West to Dolly Pardon, James Dean to Brad Pitt, etc...

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There was a canopy of water around the earth which is also the water that was used for the flood. It protected people from the sun and aging and kept an ideal temperature on earth at all times. Also there was a much higher concentration of oxygen in the atmosphere. This allowed people to heal much faster and to keep their bodies in excellent conditions.

After the flood, there was no more water around the planet and much less oxygen in the atmosphere, so the lifespan started decreasing.

 

... :Wendywhatever:

It's been a while since I heard that.

 

Now, I know that aging is due in a large part by telomere deterioration caused by cells dividing, so even if the water canopy existed, it wouldn't do much to extend the life of people. Wouldn't such a water canopy make life intolerable by increasing humidity hundreds of times over(not to mention that the water would act like a greenhouse gas). Hoo-ya being boiled alive.

 

Oxygen concentration was higher? That might explain why the bible is so rediculous(ever hear of an oxygen bar?). O2 gets you high.....and it causes cancer. O2 would increase the O3(ozone) by means of various chemical reactions, which would again cause more greenhouse effect.

 

Christians are fucking retarded sometimes.

 

Wouldn't a vapor canopy have caused the earth to boil? And wasn't there some calculation errors from one language to the next (I believe it was Akkadian to Hebrew, and possibly others) that account for the superhuman lifespans of old testament figures?

No! Not the flood again! :)

 

A vapor canopy that contained enough water to cover Everest would be too thick to allow light through. It would also raise the pressure at ground level to crushing levels (you'd be under miles of water after all). Even half as much water would still be deadly. The water canopy is unworkable.

 

If you read the thing I posted to Amanda you'll see that the Sumerian's used base 60 in their texts. This would cause a problem if not taken into account (or if just miscalculated). It would be easier to just make up numbers I would think. ;)

 

mwc

Where'd all the water go?

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Where'd all the water go?

We drank it of course. ;)

 

If I can find it, I'll post it, but I had the calculations someone did based on a mountain about 1/2 the height of Everest to show a worldwide flood would need about the same amount of water cover the earth to that height as it would to fill the earth's volume.

 

So the story is just not very workable (as we all already know).

 

mwc

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MWC, I can see a common belief of people/gods coming from another planet. It is still around. I was beginning to think you may have had the same thought. :ohmy: Glad you cleared that up. :HaHa:

 

However, the impact of the asteroid Chixlub has had on our development does seem remarkable. I understand the irridium, a layer of it deposited all over the world from its collision, has some speculation to effect DNA. So perhaps we did get a little help from space. :shrug:

Beyond the idea that the various basic components for life had to come from somewhere, perhaps space, then my personal limits on this topic are fairly narrow I'm afraid. However, I do enjoy a good story about it no matter what I personally think.

 

I agree about the Sumerians being very intelligent. Wow! They invented the wheel, written language, and figured out the earth was round by the lunar eclipse! I'm sure they did lots more.

Yep. The impact they made on the ancient world is truly remarkable. It's unfortunate their culture happened to be in one of the worse places possible at the moment. :( We've already lost many Babylonian treasures in recent years and it would be a shame to lose more...especially considering the circumstances.

 

I assume you're correct about this. Abram would have been 25 years old, having Ishme. However, it seems he would have had more than one child. And, perhaps the first male was suppose to be the most important, and the second one or subsequent children not recorded? It seems to me that this list has no consecutive similar names more than twice, although I did see 'Suen' listed multiple times.

The dates given weren't their ages but length of rule. As far as I know we don't know their ages but I could be wrong. The list I posted didn't include them. So this means Abraham would have ruled 25 years and his son 20. At which point another unrelated person came to power. If the biblical story were true then Abraham would have left "office" and Ishmael would have never "served" as king (and so he'd never make the list). If Isaac were to serve in his stead then we'd see his name on the list after his father but we don't see that either.

 

What we see goes something like this. There was once a powerful man. His name was Abraham. He had a son named Ishmael. He was blessed and went on to have a great kingdom. He also had another son that you may not have heard about but he was even better. He was our forefather. He was even more blessed than the other son, who by the way was the offspring of a rather unsavory relationship, not that it matters now. But our forefather, Isaac, was really great and his half-brother was pretty good too.

 

I'd certainly never describe this person as crazy! He certainly seems like he questions everything and is NOT relying on what has become popularly accepted. Yet, what I have learned quite well from this site is to consider the inclinations of the researcher, because they have a tendency to find what they are seeking. It was a good piece of advice to me coming on here as a Christian, yet I've found it can work both ways. :Look:

Perhaps "crazy" was too strong of word? Far-fetched? Strange? Unheard of? I'm not sure which to use exactly. What I was going for was that what was being said where a god name being replaced with another god name is actually not uncommon. The word Ba'al being replaced with El (with Ba'al meaning "Lord" and not a specific entity) and "El" referring not to a specific deity but more like "most high" in a broad sense). This happens in people's names as well as places and so on. But it can be used in a more narrow sense as well if a leader seems to follow a specific deity then they will "adjust" things so that deity is used in names a lot and another leader will come along and change it later to their preferred god (if any). But if the name after the dash (in our example) is seen as almost a generic word for "god" then whoever translates it will see it like this "Zeus=El=Jupiter=Ba'al=Ra=Yahweh" and they'll just replace it with whatever their generic word for "god" is at that moment in time. With no "agenda" in mind. A horse is a horse. A god is a god. In this case "Dagan=El" meaning they were the same exact god in the translator's mind. He wasn't "erasing" Dagan and replacing him with "El." He just used his word for "god." It wasn't until later that "El" became something else. I'm not saying this is what happening in our case but it did happen so it's worth considering.

 

C'mon MWC... do you really think it borrowed or embellished? Even our history books today are so slanted by the author and being politically correct in their country.... what will the future say about us? Having said that, I still think there is some element of truth. I suppose we have the benefit of having written records of all the cultures putting their slant on it too. You know the old saying, 'There's his side, there's her side, and then there's the truth.' Could we look at all sides and come up with the truth? :shrug:

Do I think there could be some elements of truth in the Genesis to Joshua books? Based on the research that has happened in recent years any truth would be very, very slight and that's being generous. All the current evidence shows that there simply was no Israel of any kind prior to about 800BCE. Any mention of the word Israel before that time is in relation to a group and not a country. The group of Israel is much different than the one in the biblical texts. They are a sub-group of the Canaanites. A bunch of people living in the hills around Canaan. Nothing more really.

 

Even the State of Israel's official stance is that the stories are nothing more than stories because of the current research. They believe their history started with Saul and David but even then David was likely, at most, no more than a small time thug that ruled a tiny little village in the hills. Solomon still has zero evidence of existing and one of his wives, the Queen of Sheba (if I'm not mistaken), is a mythical character in her own right. I believe that David and his immediate lineage was, at best, nothing more than a legend along the lines of King Arthur and is more myth than reality.

 

I can definitely see merit in that scenario. Although, there is a theory that the Jews were not really 'slaves' to Egypt, but more like indentured servants in that they were bagabonds solicited as workers, who opted out of their commitment to do the job. Perhaps the extent of abuse to these people has become a bit exaggerated in the Moses story. IDK. Your theory can't be discarded, as if that were the case.... it worked. :wink:

The Jews have yet to be placed in Egypt. This is a big problem for the Exodus story. Until you can actually get them into Egypt you cannot get them out of Egypt. :)

 

People like to make the Hyksos the Jews. The problem is the Hyksos were rulers in the Northern half of the country. They had their own Pharaohs and everything. I remember they had one named Jacob and possibly Joseph. Sound familiar? Jacob named ruled in the bible story though Joseph kind of did. The Hyksos weren't slaves but a ruling class. The Hyksos were Semetic but they were Canaanite. Jews didn't exist yet. They also worshiped the Egyptian god Seth as Ba'al. Being Canaanite they may have also used the concept of El at this point but we don't have any evidence for that.

 

The thing is that the Southern Pharaohs wanted the Hyksos to go. They tried repeatedly to make them leave but they couldn't force them out. Eventually Pharaoh Ahmoses did run them off back into Canaan but it didn't take 40 years. He chased them down in a very direct route from North Egypt into Canaan. At this point Egypt kept control of both countries for some time to come.

 

Now. If you take all that and mix it with a whole lot of "I want this story to make me and mine look a lot better" along with various other history, could you find the Exodus story of the bible in there? I could. The Hyksos are your best bet for a match to this tale. The major problems are: 1) they worshiped the "wrong" god. 2) they were far from being slaves. 3) they were "encouraged" to leave. 4) they didn't wander in the desert. 5) they were ruled by Egypt in Canaan (no Conquest).

 

That seems to support the idea that Ishma was expelled as the OT states. Another mother jealous of the other child could have caused this, and Abram loved Sarai immensely, as she was very beautiful... if it is true they visited Egypt and the king was attracted to her... and is how they obtained their wealth. Sarai wielding her influence could have eliminated the barrier of her son getting the whole inheritance. As in our history books of today, isn't it hard to tell which scenario to believe?

But the whole story of an old women being that attractive after living under the desert sun for her whole life sounds like...well...let's just call it a lie. If you were poor that meant you worked hard outside your whole life. You're not a hottie. You're wrinkled up and pruney. But then this ploy works twice. Even if we grant that one of the guys has eye problems and thinks "Hey, grandma's lookin' pretty good" what are the odds that two guys, that can get any women he likes, are going for this same trick? It reads like a literary device. The author thinks this is a clever way to turn a quick buck.

 

But let's take it at face value for a moment. The author is writing of a time around 2000-2200BCE. The story would have to pass down in some fashion but it can be shown that there is no uninterrupted flow of people. If the Hebrews didn't go into Egypt and that story didn't occur then how did the story pass on? As I showed there's no evidence for the Exodus. There's evidence for a different story. With different people. But why would they tell a different tale? If they're willing to alter the tale of their own history in Egypt then, assuming they're the ones passing on the story of Abraham, how can we trust them to accurately portray these events as well? If they aren't the ones passing on the story of Abraham then where are they? We can find no trace of them. So there's a disconnect in the time line. The story of Abraham is picked up later, around 600BCE, after the Jews return from Babylon, when most of the OT is written. Is it the same as the original story? Is it "borrowed?" All signs point to the latter.

 

Does that help explain why I'm skeptical about those stories? Nearly all this can be applied to all of the Genesis to Joshua stories in some manner. Nearly all of those stories can be seen in a different culture. In almost every case archaeology is showing that no Israelites were where they were supposed to have been when the story was taking place. In nearly every case the story seems to magically appear around 600BCE when the people return from Babylonian captivity. There just seems to be overwhelming evidence tilting the scales against the authors of these early stories.

 

mwc

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<snip> Does that help explain why I'm skeptical about those stories? Nearly all this can be applied to all of the Genesis to Joshua stories in some manner. Nearly all of those stories can be seen in a different culture. In almost every case archaeology is showing that no Israelites were where they were supposed to have been when the story was taking place. In nearly every case the story seems to magically appear around 600BCE when the people return from Babylonian captivity. There just seems to be overwhelming evidence tilting the scales against the authors of these early stories.

 

mwc

 

You must be an ancient history scholar! Thanks MWC! :thanks:

 

I'm going to do some research on some of this, although I consider you to be much more informed than I. It seems, from the great information you shared with me, there is quite a bit more fables, allegories, and metaphors than I had thought. I appreciate so much that you've shared with me here and other threads, of so many things it has taken you hours and hours and hours to learn. :thanks:

 

Yet, I do think there is a remarkable record of civilization's evolution found in these biblical renderings, rather they are historically accurate or not... as maybe those stories were not intended to be historical facts. Maybe they are all mostly fables and allegories intended to cultivate a people into a place of integrity, morals, self esteem, and compassion.

 

Studying these biblical teachings from the manuscript from which the KJV was taken, by lexicons via concordances and researching each word to its primary root, reveals very different stories than the one KJV delivered. Yet, I use to come across names and wonder who the heck are they? Names like Marduk, Ba'al, Apollo, and many more. It was not relevent to the subject I was seeking at the time, so I paid too little attention, yet I hear those names here often in revealing the similarity of myths from other cultures. Maybe people have a tendency to take something and run away with it? :rolleyes:

 

Having said that, are you familiar with David Rohl's work? He is a secular Egyptologist that happened upon a discovery that seems to authenticate some historical assertions in the OT. He has no intention of alligning himself with any religous orientation, and seems to have stumbled upon this Egyptian correlation that collaborates some OT people. His findings may be in the scope you already give some credit. Anyway, here it says this about David Rohl:

His published works A Test of Time and Legend set forth Rohl's theories for dating Egyptian kings of the 19th through 25th Dynasties, which would require a major revision of the conventional chronology of ancient Egypt, and less radical revisions of the chronologies of Israel and Mesopotamia. Rohl asserts that these would allow scholars to identify many of the main characters in the Old Testament with people whose names appear in archeological finds.

 

As for the irridium effecting DNA... I looked it up, however it looks like the people making the claim of irridium effecting the DNA want to sell it in some sort of healthy concoction to make a buck. Maybe my previous reading regarding it was of similar ilk. :unsure:

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You must be an ancient history scholar! Thanks MWC! :thanks:

Far from a scholar. :) I never liked history, ancient or otherwise really, but then once I came to this site I became fascinated with the dynamic interplay in it all for some reason. It's much more complex than school led me to believe so now I rather enjoy it.

 

I'm going to do some research on some of this, although I consider you to be much more informed than I. It seems, from the great information you shared with me, there is quite a bit more fables, allegories, and metaphors than I had thought. I appreciate so much that you've shared with me here and other threads, of so many things it has taken you hours and hours and hours to learn. :thanks:

 

Yet, I do think there is a remarkable record of civilization's evolution found in these biblical renderings, rather they are historically accurate or not... as maybe those stories were not intended to be historical facts. Maybe they are all mostly fables and allegories intended to cultivate a people into a place of integrity, morals, self esteem, and compassion.

I'll have to look it up (I literally just rolled out of bed) but there's one story in the bible that has three tellings that I know of. In the bible it has an angel killing off the enemy army. A Greek account has the enemies getting much of their equipment destroyed by mice. However the enemy account shows they were paid off by Jerusalem and that's what spared the city but those around them. One theorist has added that maybe Jerusalem had gotten help from Egypt and that helped in their attackers decision. But often the "paying them off" option is very popular but just not written about...something else is given as the reason.

 

Studying these biblical teachings from the manuscript from which the KJV was taken, by lexicons via concordances and researching each word to its primary root, reveals very different stories than the one KJV delivered. Yet, I use to come across names and wonder who the heck are they? Names like Marduk, Ba'al, Apollo, and many more. It was not relevent to the subject I was seeking at the time, so I paid too little attention, yet I hear those names here often in revealing the similarity of myths from other cultures. Maybe people have a tendency to take something and run away with it? :rolleyes:

You and me both. I never used to really know the players involved. There was "god" and these other false gods/demons whatever guys. Who knows and who cares. Now that I know a little bit I find it so much more interesting. Of course, if I weren't apostate already it wouldn't help in that department to see that MY god wasn't so special.

 

Having said that, are you familiar with David Rohl's work? He is a secular Egyptologist that happened upon a discovery that seems to authenticate some historical assertions in the OT. He has no intention of alligning himself with any religous orientation, and seems to have stumbled upon this Egyptian correlation that collaborates some OT people. His findings may be in the scope you already give some credit.

David Rohl has been working on this for quite some time as far as I know. I had (I might still have) two of his docs open in tabs right now (I have around 100 browser tabs open). The problem with his work that "real" archaeologists have is not only does he move the time line for Egypt without much reason other than he wants to is that he ignores the time lines of the surrounding cultures. For example, the people wrote back and forth and interacted in other ways. If you move one you need to account for it in all. He can't seem to do that. So he moves people around and then letters that are written to people in known times suddenly cannot be written...but it fits his need so he expects someone else to fix his mess in the other culture's time line. Maybe some day he'll find the way to work it all out but it's been so long and he doesn't seem any closer.

 

As for the irridium effecting DNA... I looked it up, however it looks like the people making the claim of irridium effecting the DNA want to sell it in some sort of healthy concoction to make a buck. Maybe my previous reading regarding it was of similar ilk. :unsure:

Iridium is rare but I don't believe it's radioactive. Just going outside is probably worse for you. Now, Iridium delivered as it was 65m years ago is bad for everyone's health. :)

 

mwc

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