Question for AUB

[Mythra]

Hi AUB -

I saw that you've been doing quite a bit of research that supports the idea of a mythological jesus. I'm just starting myself, and thought that maybe you could give me some direction where to head or where to avoid.

 

I just finished reading "The Christ Conspiracy" by Acharya S. Although some of the things presented in this book seemed a little far-fetched, she presents an absolutely staggering amount of information regarding linguistic similarities and lots and lots of doctrinal similarities between Christianity and other major religions, cults, and sects. I found the bulk of her work to be highly plausible. There were tons of things in this book I had never heard of, such as the Therapeut or Therapeutae Brotherhood, and the destruction of the huge library in Alexandria by the early Christians.

 

Are you familiar with this book? Perhaps you could recommend other books or sources? Any sharing of insights would be appreciated.

 

Many thanks.

[Mythra]

ps I see the links that you inserted in the Identity of Christ thread. I'll be checking those out.

[Lokmer]

Acharya S is entertaining, but despite her entertaining style she's essentially the Kent Hovind of Christ-Mythers. Check out some of those sources she sites, you'll notice that a great many of them are theosophists, discredited clergy, and in one case at least, a satirical play where she quotes the character in the play as if he's the ACTUAL person being satirized.

 

Freke and Gandy are a bit better, but they still, knowingly or unknowingly. use a few discredited sources.

 

I'd actually place *most* of what's on jesusneverexisted.com a cut above Freke and Gandy - despite its sensationalist style and sometimes one-sided presentation of the facts, the guy who maintains the site vettes his sources very well and is very responsive to critiques.

 

A few steps up the line, you get Gerd Ludeman, Robert M. Price, and Burton Mack, who are far more tentative in their conclusion that Jesus never existed, but also prove their case MUCH more thoroughly.

 

-Lokmer

[Lokmer]

Also, in answer to some of your questions:

 

The Library of Alexandria was destroyed twice - once by Christians and once by Muslims. Shortly before the Christians burned it, they murdered Hypatia (the last head librarian) in a particularly gruesome fashion. The story of Hypatia is, in and of itself, a vaccine against Christian doctrine. Pulled from her chariot in the streets of Alexandria, stripped naked, fondled and assaulted by the mob of Christians, and the flesh scraped from her bones with oyster shells, she was the last curator of Alexandria. Her death was ordered and presided over by "Saint" Cyril, who was canonized for his trouble and is still held in very high regard by the church. It was he who ordered the burning of the library shortly thereafter, if memory serves.

 

-Lokmer

[Mythra]

Lokmer and Zoe - thanks for the response.

 

It seemed like I had come across the inference that Acharya S was somewhat less than credible. That's the last thing I want to do is go from one deception to the next.

 

I've also read the Price book "The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man." I liked that book as well. It's amazing what scholarly textual analysis will reveal. I think I need to read it again. I'm sure a lot of it didn't fully sink in.

 

It's funny isn't it, how today's christians acknowledge the corruption and deceit of the Catholic church, while somehow turning a sideways glance to the fact that the Catholic church was THE church of Christ for hundreds and hundreds of years. The Catholic church is the "solid rock" upon which christianity is founded..

[Lokmer]

Lokmer and Zoe - thanks for the response.

 

It seemed like I had come across the inference that Acharya S was somewhat less than credible.  That's the last thing I want to do is go from one deception to the next.

 

I've also read the Price book "The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man."  I liked that book as well.  It's amazing what scholarly textual analysis will reveal.  I think I need to read it again.  I'm sure a lot of it didn't fully sink in.

 

Cool - now check out the sequel: "Deconstructing Jesus," where Price moves beyond the Bible and into the surrounding culture to demonstrate where some of the more "solid" (i.e. well-accepted by H.J. scholars) sections of the gospel story come from.

 

It's funny isn't it, how today's christians acknowledge the corruption and deceit of the Catholic church, while somehow turning a sideways glance to the fact that the Catholic church was THE church of Christ for hundreds and hundreds of years.  The Catholic church is the "solid rock" upon which christianity is founded.

 

Yup, and the evil they wind up defending just to justify their doctrine. Bleh.

-Lokmer

[Mythra]

Lokmer - thanks much for the references. Amazon here I come.

[Lokmer]

while her scholarship isn't the greatest in the world, it doesn't mean she's wrong about everything.  Meanwhile some of the best scholarship can still have a bias or be somehow wrong in part.  The most important thing when getting away from the christian mentality IMO is not to treat ANY book as "holy writ"  Any theory can be wrong no matter how good it looks on paper.  You have to sift through a lot of info from a lot of diff sources, and make sense of it yourself and be willing for your view not to be the "100% true view" because you could be wrong and there is no sense sinking into dogma over it.

 

Well said. Perhaps I should rephrase:

 

Acharya S, for all the good and thought-provoking things she points out, is as credulous with her sources as Christians are with theirs - i.e. she's prone to believe anything that helps her case, and doesn't properly vette her sources. By all means, do read her, but please do so skeptically and checking her sources.

 

Now, does this mean you should be *less* skeptical with others? Of course not. Skepticism always. I've done due dilligence on all three of the above authors after reading their books, checking up on them. I've found Price, Ludeman, and Mack to be *most* reliable to treat fairly with well-vetted sources. Freke and Gandy tend to be fairly sloppy, though they are not without merit. And Acharya S is extremely sloppy and credulous, falling into the apologist's evidenciary trap - but her work is also not wholly without merit.

 

Thanks for keeping me honest, Zoe

-Lokmer

[- AUB -]

Oops, should visit other threads more often, but I've less time for forums these days. Here's the thread that got me here, my post applies here as well.

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?show...indpost&p=32998

 

Acharya S is a good read, and does get the basic data right, just ignore her conclusions, and make your own. You have to be thorough and objective on this issue as it's the most intense there is, so many have an emotional or professional investment in a historical Jesus that people will disagree a priori. But we're making headway, we just get setback sometimes by less careful researchers.

[Lokmer]

Joesph Campbell's "Creative Mythology" and "Occidental Mythology" are both a bit dense, but cover the subject supremely well. Also the Jack Miles book "God, A Biography" - particularly the first Appendix, but also most of the first three or four chapers. For a very short/popular work that is nevertheless VERY enlightening, check out Reginald Finley's "Is Heaven The Sky?" video. It also suggests several paths for further study.

 

This online book also deals with the relevant topics in an introductory way.

 

For primary sources, see the Egyptian "Pyramid Texts" and "The Book of the Dead," the Sumerian/Babylonian "Epic of Gilgamesh," the Hindu "Vedas" and "Baghavad-Gita."

 

-Lokmer

[- AUB -]

Interesting, (I’m all NT at the moment but I’ll give you a summery) there are not that many books on this that I remember, Lok mentioned all those I know, though Internet infidels will have something. On the issue of OT it’s easier to study it yourself through the correct dating of the books and a comparison with the cultural context. The early OT motifs arose out of Canannite and Phoenician beliefs but were transformed during the Babylonian exile incorporating many elements (Gilgamesh, Hannerabi, etc) then under Persian influence Zoroastrian motifs filtered in, (winged angels, the devil etc) others remaining dormant until xtianity appeared, borrowing dualism, fatalism, and Mythraism via Gnosticism.

 

Then during the Greek occupation Hellenistic ideas gave Judaism cynicism (among the Sadducees) and the underworld, (again far more so with xtianity) among other things, finally when the OT was compiled (Zakkai school) the less rebellious and nationalistic books were chosen (74-132ce) so as to win the Roman Empire’s approval.

 

Context is everything, with the NT it shows how derivative and poor quality Jesus’ teachings were compared to contemporary philosophy.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ric...r/musonius.html

http://www.frontline-apologetics.com/carrier_on_jesus.htm

 

With the OT its a matter of Israel's contact with other nations, quite simple really. There is also the issue of turning mythical sun deities into historical patriarchs and prophets, (Solomon, Samson, Moses etc) this is more speculative but shows a genius the NT lacks)

[Matthew]

I don't know if I would compare Acharya S to Kent Hovind. I don't think that even the worst of skeptics deserve that kind of comparison. Robert Price compared her to Josh McDowell, which I think is a more deserving criticism. I haven't read Acharya S and I am quite hesistant in doing so except to see what she got wrong and what she might've gotten right. I consider Archarya S (her real name is D. Murdock by the way) to be quite interesting but I figure that I will have the same regard for her "scholarship" as Carrier does Frazier.

 

It's kind of funny. Both Christian and skeptic seem to have their best scholars and their worst scholars and both sides, at times, seems to point to the worst of the other's side as if these worse examples are the best that the other side has to offer.

 

Matthew

[Guest dadvocate]

Acharya S might be a lousy academic but she sure is hot

 

http://www.truthbeknown.com/buddhafu.htm

 

http://www.truthbeknown.com/photos.htm