Guest Matt Rose Posted June 11, 2005 Share Posted June 11, 2005 I had this discussion with a friend of mine. My bestfriend of 17 years as a matter of fact. He is still religious and I am agnostic. Really need your help on this one guys.... blank captions are prolly smiley faces or winks They are animated in MSN Messenger. without further ado, your scrutiny: COPIED/PASTED: It's Coming! says: hey Jason says: yeah It's Coming! says: you got 5 minutes or so? Jason says: yeah It's Coming! says: wait, I forgot exactly what I was gonna talk to you about......hold on It's Coming! says: oh It's Coming! says: I talked to my sister the other day It's Coming! says: I have been thinking about telling my parents that I am agnostic, wondering if it would help or hurt or do nothing..... It's Coming! says: that's one of the bigger reasons I wanted to tell you and then ultimately send that chat we had the other day It's Coming! says: by I decided to tell my sister first It's Coming! says: and she shrugged and said, "yeah, so.....we know that." It's Coming! says: I was wondering..... It's Coming! says: did you ever have a feeling I was like this? It's Coming! says: needless to say that conversation with my sister has had me studying It's Coming! says: I DL'd Mere Christianity, I think that was the book you wanted me to read It's Coming! says: is C.S. Lewis a fantasy writer? I've heard the name It's Coming! says: but It's Coming! says: did you ever have a feeling that I was not impressed by the church when we went to church? Jason says: i don't think I ever really thought about it then It's Coming! says: kewl Jason says: at that point in time i feel that it seemed a bit dogmatic and i was going with the flow It's Coming! says: exactly It's Coming! says: I think I was the same way It's Coming! says: even following the rituals Jason says: but i have learned all I know on my own cause I question just about everything as was given my own conclusions It's Coming! says: best way to do things, good to hear Jason says: i know you don't believe they way I do and most people don't Jason says: everybody is different and I believe God deals with us each differently It's Coming! says: kewl It's Coming! says: didn't bring it up for that reason btw Jason says: so I have made my choices and now is the daily routine of living with them and having faith Jason says: I know It's Coming! says: I've been delving into the thought since talking with my sister Jason says: C.S. Lewis wrote The Chronicles of Narnia It's Coming! says: aaaaaaaaaah It's Coming! says: knew I'd heard that name before Jason says: it was a work of fiction just as The Lord of the Rings was Jason says: him and Tolkien were great friends both in WW I and later in life It's Coming! says: I don't want to suppress myself by only reading atheistic websites, so counter-balancing it with Mere Christianity It's Coming! says: if you know anything else, besides Mere Christianity and More Than A Carpenter, let me know Jason says: but both works are of christian principles It's Coming! says: yeah, so is the Matrix It's Coming! says: It's Coming! says: hehehehe It's Coming! says: 72 percent btw Jason says: C.S. Lewis set out to disprove christianity and wound becoming one of the greatest christian philosophers of his time It's Coming! says: is his testimony in Mere Christianity? Jason says: he was a great thinker and ideologist Jason says: no Jason says: the book is amazing though i think and very well written Jason says: it was actually a radio broadcast during WWII and was later revised and put into book and published It's Coming! says: I got it on my comp here, PDF. I'll read it in the next 2 weeks or so It's Coming! says: yeah, I read the Prolog already Jason says: good Jason says: perhaps also read "The Defence of Calvinism" by C.H. Spurgeon It's Coming! says: Calvinism? That's to fundy for me It's Coming! says: that preaches an Elect Jason says: hehehe It's Coming! says: might be to much for me It's Coming! says: kinda surprised you read that It's Coming! says: and wondering why..... Jason says: on;y if you let it Jason says: why what? It's Coming! says: Calvinism, correct me if I am wrong, preaches that we are elected to go to heaven by God before we are even born It's Coming! says: they commonly site a verse I don't have handy It's Coming! says: that clearly spells out in 'god's word' that he elects us It's Coming! says: you are a born-againer, you guys kinda conflict on somethings Jason says: i believe it this way It's Coming! says: ears.... Jason says: God chose me before I ever chose Him It's Coming! says: I've heard someone say that before It's Coming! says: was 2nd baptist Calvinstic? Jason says: Me, being a sinner and all could never do anything to bring myself closer to God Jason says: If I want to get closer He must draw me closer Jason says: He must open my eyes It's Coming! says: that's Calvinism then Jason says: yet I still have the choice to refuse every step of the way Jason says: as He has given us freewiil Jason says: but don't let that word Calvinism distract you because if that word didn't exist I would still believe this way Jason says: and that way is what I call the truth It's Coming! says: oh, I gotcha It's Coming! says: I wouldn't use it if I were you though It's Coming! says: Jason says: I am not afraid of its implications Jason says: if someone questions the let him ask or discover it for himself as I have It's Coming! says: the word Calvinism is as dirty to me, as Agnostic is to my parents Jason says: ahh well Jason says: it's either black or white Jason says: no in betweens on this for me It's Coming! says: i don't like gereralities either It's Coming! says: me neither It's Coming! says: I got what you were saying Jason says: i don't think i am being general in anything Jason says: two distinct groups Jason says: in the end that is all there is It's Coming! says: yeah, generalities, as in between camps It's Coming! says: apologetics, stuff like that..... Jason says: understood It's Coming! says: one of the bigger reasons, and tests, I am throwing myself is debating with christians It's Coming! says: I have 2 guys, one 26 and one 32 that I talk to in emails. It's Coming! says: I am testing things in the fire Jason says: i don't believe there is a need for debates It's Coming! says: one of them has told me he is not suppose to listen to me, only preach to me It's Coming! says: so I don't talk to him much now, mostly cause he won't let me It's Coming! says: but the older one is kewl It's Coming! says: claims to be an open-minded chrstian It's Coming! says: and he seems to be that way It's Coming! says: although I told him doubting God is a sin It's Coming! says: and he told me he didn't plan on doing that It's Coming! says: so not sure exactly where it will end It's Coming! says: they leave me silenced with the Bible, something I really have a hard time believing in right now Jason says: i will tell you the truth as I understand it and then if you won't believe then that's it It's Coming! says: can I resiprocate? It's Coming! says: reciprocate? Jason says: i won't judge you cause you choose not to believe Jason says: i think you misunderstand me It's Coming! says: ? Jason says: i am not speaking of you as in you Jason says: but you as in anyone who is interested It's Coming! says: well, that's me too It's Coming! says: It's Coming! says: so go ahead Jason says: you already know all i have to say Jason says: i have talked to you about it before Jason says: now perhaps there are things i cannot explain, that's fine It's Coming! says: I figured you might put it into context better It's Coming! says: that's not ok with me It's Coming! says: I have to be able to explain things It's Coming! says: it's a compulsive need Jason says: i am only there to plant the seed Jason says: i don't believe it is possible with God Jason says: how could you possibly explain all that he is and does Jason says: makes no sense It's Coming! says: well, if he's God, it would be impossible hehehe It's Coming! says: I can explain most of it Jason says: perhaps It's Coming! says: I can't explain the Big Bang though, so don't use that card It's Coming! says: It's Coming! says: I really just wanted to see if you sensed I wasn't right with the church back in the day is all Jason says: you make it sound like i want to debate you It's Coming! says: these kinda conversations I've noticed tend to step on the toes of the faithful It's Coming! says: you are the last person i want to debate hehehe Jason says: don't worry about stepping on my toes It's Coming! says: well, I worry It's Coming! says: here's the first and foremost fact of the matter: Jason says: i have found that if you find someone who is willing to lay it all out for you and not try to convert you then you won't step on his toes It's Coming! says: I could give two shits about "deprogramming" you per se It's Coming! says: you seem a lot happier than me right now and I don't have any business meddling Jason says: no worries Jason says: you are not It's Coming! says: I think I used meddling out of context It's Coming! says: have any business trying to reshape you It's Coming! says: that makes more sense to me It's Coming! says: but that's how I feel about it Jason says: don't worry about that either It's Coming! says: I just wanted to throw that up to you earlier It's Coming! says: well then, it sounds like you want to hear me then It's Coming! says: am I guessing right? It's Coming! says: honestly, I'd love to tell the whole world! It's Coming! says: 22 minutes left, btw It's Coming! says: you? Jason says: 6 minutes It's Coming! says: nice Jason says: but i have to go in like 5 It's Coming! says: .... It's Coming! says: AFO? Jason says: got to finish up a program and a few other things before the guys get in a t bragg in the morning It's Coming! says: it's kewl Jason says: just know this Jason says: i listen to things and question things all the time Jason says: i don't thikn i would be where i am at if i didn't It's Coming! says: have you doubted God? Jason says: many times Jason says: more times than i can count Jason says: but that is natural It's Coming! says: I feel the need to debate It's Coming! says: but debating is fun to me, and not neccesarily to everyone.... Jason says: well i can't debate you because i don't have all the answers It's Coming! says: I don't either It's Coming! says: but we respect each other Jason says: i don't even have half of them Jason says: yes It's Coming! says: you can chase what you don't know It's Coming! says: Jason says: i respect everyones right to believe what they choose even if it isn't mine It's Coming! says: what if you felt there was manipultion involved? It's Coming! says: would you have convictions against said institution? Jason says: then i would question it It's Coming! says: so if you ran into Marshall Applewhite and his gang Jason says: i don't know who that is It's Coming! says: would you respect their beliefs or keep them from drinking cyanide? It's Coming! says: it's my pciture right now It's Coming! says: Heaven's Gate Cult It's Coming! says: he was the leader It's Coming! says: they all died in Nike Gangster's, when Chris had some It's Coming! says: Southern, CA It's Coming! says: circa 93 or something It's Coming! says: they drank kool-aid to meet Hale Bops comet It's Coming! says: only 15 years after Jim Jones' clan drank the kool-aid too! Jason says: i guess they got their ride then It's Coming! says: lol It's Coming! says: would you have helped them not drink that kool-aid though? Jason says: of course It's Coming! says: well, I feel that same need Jason says: i don't wish anyone to harm themselves if i can stop it It's Coming! says: what if..... It's Coming! says: you knew someone was keeping themselves from some "mind fun" and expanding, would you help them too? It's Coming! says: I'm goin somewhere with this, so don't feel manipulated in the end Jason says: i won't It's Coming! says: although manipulation is what we are talking about hehehehe Jason says: if someone won't believe what i tell them then that is their right It's Coming! says: I not talking about what you tell people It's Coming! says: I'm talking about what you have been told Jason says: me specifically? Jason says: or just someone It's Coming! says: well, religious types Jason says: i don't follow It's Coming! says: let me explain like this.... It's Coming! says: Do you think you could live a life without the words, SIN, FAITH, REPENTENSE, or SOUL? It's Coming! says: if those words didn't exist? Jason says: of course It's Coming! says: could you do it knowing that they exist? Jason says: yes It's Coming! says: could you explain your life to someone now without those words? Jason says: i believe i could It's Coming! says: I need to hear that Jason says: but i would have to think about it because i know those words It's Coming! says: of course It's Coming! says: what would you replace Sin with? It's Coming! says: what would you replace Soul with? Jason says: separation from God because of my birth and deeds It's Coming! says: you can only repent if you believe in sin, so we don't have to replace that It's Coming! says: Soul? Jason says: the inner being of me that exists eternally It's Coming! says: Faith? Jason says: belief in something even though it is unseen It's Coming! says: all of those kinda have a mythical ring to them don't they? It's Coming! says: would you say, you have to escape logic, even a little, to believe those things? Jason says: no Jason says: of course Jason says: i don't believe that all of life is logical It's Coming! says: good point It's Coming! says: that's where my reductionism comes in Jason says: as a matter of fact i am probably one of the most illogical thinkers i know of It's Coming! says: we've all made mistakes if that's what you mean It's Coming! says: but I prized you for your logic and brain back in the day It's Coming! says: I don't believe your last statement Jason says: no not at all Jason says: i don't come to my solutions mentally by using everyday logic It's Coming! says: you use the Bible for decernment? Jason says: it may seem as logic outwardly Jason says: yes i do It's Coming! says: I thought you might think I deemed using the Bible as illogical, I don't however It's Coming! says: it's an eye of the beholder kinda thing It's Coming! says: it's very logical that you would use the Bible for decernment Jason says: no Jason says: not at all It's Coming! says: whereas, it's would seem logical for me to do the same It's Coming! says: expand... It's Coming! says: you have to go don't you? Jason says: perhaps Jason says: a few more minuts It's Coming! says: kewl Jason says: but what about those people that don't have or will never see a bible It's Coming! says: God is a "just God" It's Coming! says: that's suppose to be your argument It's Coming! says: it's a blanket answer It's Coming! says: coming from the onmiscient It's Coming! says: but you are suppose to believe it Jason says: yes Jason says: i believe it cause i feel it It's Coming! says: you said earlier you don't know the half of anything basically It's Coming! says: do you think you know everything about your body, and it's feelings? Jason says: when it comes to God i don't Jason says: i know what has been revealed to me It's Coming! says: ok, I understand It's Coming! says: it's heresay, but I get it It's Coming! says: would you agree that it is heresay? It's Coming! says: it still takes a measure of Faith, on my behalf, to believe you have had personal fellowship with the Lord. Jason says: yes Jason says: but that faith will not come from me proving anything to you It's Coming! says: faith, you either have it or you don't Jason says: cause i don't have proof except my words It's Coming! says: yeah, that's a resounding theme in religion It's Coming! says: to me anyways It's Coming! says: I got Mere Christianity and I am going to read it, I also have something I would like for you to read It's Coming! says: if you don't think it's a Sin to read it, here it is: Jason says: you have faith in that chair you are sitting in that chair because you were physically shown how it works then tried it for yourself, now it is second nature to sit down in a chair Jason says: Dragon's of Eden It's Coming! says: http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/thoughts.html It's Coming! says: no, this is a website, dedicated to atheism granted It's Coming! says: but I'm hoping you are at least open It's Coming! says: this is about dogmatic mind control It's Coming! says: telling you to believe something and you wanting to believe it Jason says: sure, i am not afraid of it nor do i consider it a 'Sin' It's Coming! says: very nice Jason says: what is It's Coming! says: not considering it a sin to doubt God Jason says: what is about dogmatic mind control It's Coming! says: the link I just threw you It's Coming! says: did you get the link? Jason says: oh, yeah It's Coming! says: Jason says: good thing i hate dogmatic mind control as the next person It's Coming! says: I didn't know I was up in it till I read this..... It's Coming! says: I'd like to discuss it and Mere Christianity with you later too if that's kewl witcha.... It's Coming! says: aight man, gotta smoke one, I'll talk atcha later It's Coming! says: later bro, ty Jason says: later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Matt Rose Posted June 11, 2005 Share Posted June 11, 2005 maybe it's just me...but i don't understand why you have to "share"your agnosticism with anyone. I mean it's certainly your right. But we live in a culture where people "share" their religion. (christianity) There are many cultures where spirituality or lack thereof is private and you don't run around sharing. This need to tell family and friends of your deconversion is just another way that christianity influences your life. I mean if someone asks me my beliefs, depending on their motives and their interest I might tell them some things about how I view the world. I always enjoy a philosophical discussion, but as for the need to run up and tell all my family and friends of my current spiritual situation I don't feel the need. My brother pretty much knows my beliefs but the rest of my family just knows I don't go to church. To me spirituality is personal and private...like sexuality. Who you share or don't share such things with is totally up to you and you should never feel "compelled" to just because it's what everyone is doing. There is no 12-step program to deconversion and sharing your new beliefs or lack thereof isn't one of the steps. So if you do choose to share do it on your own terms and for your own reasons. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I was kinda asking people to read it actually. From your response I gather that you didn't. Now, I do feel compelled and you may have read that. However, it's not to flaunt anything and I think that is the only reason so see me as doing this. I came from a fundy Southern Baptist Church in Houston, Tx. My father was a deacon and I knew the guy I am speaking to UP THERE a great deal of that time. During those times I was always questioning and getting no answers and when my sister brought it up that it was apparent, I had to question my best friend during those times too. If not for any other reason, to have a more informed guess at what my parents viewed me as doing. If you read the correspondense I posted up top, you will see that telling my parents has been a debate of mine. Also, if you preruse the forums here, especially in Ex-Christian Life, you will see that many of us are wondering how to inform our relatives, namely our parents. I'm happy for you that you feel just as sound as I do, but I'm against not proclaiming it. I have to tell people this, it is life-affirming to me. I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I knew a big part of everything that was on this site a long time ago. This site has opened my eyes in letting me know that my doubt has paid off. That I knew this before, and the numbers of you support it now. This website has been nothing but validation for me from the first time I visited it. It's closer to the truth than religion, I'm spreading my truth. I am more than a little concerned that someone here is, I feel, is not as responsible with it. matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted June 11, 2005 Share Posted June 11, 2005 What's this guy's obsession with Mere Christianity? Even as a Christian, I read it and thought it was full of holes. Lewis bases lots of his reasoning with a faulty assumption right at the start. Some of his generalizations about human nature can be refuted by any decent anthropologist. Tell him you'll read it if he'll read "The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man" by Price. He'll be afraid to, though. Might shake up his world too much. On the "archives" page of this site, there is some exerpts from "Losing Faith in Faith" by Dan Barker. Click on that and you'll find "mere assumptions" - a brief exerpt which refutes Mere Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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