Tyson Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 Often I hear [some] Christians say that god gave us free will because "who would want to be a robot?" Well, when they get to heaven (as they say they expect) and/or live on the new earth in yet another perfect world (allegedly), won't they be robots at that point? If not, then what is there to stop another Lucifer from rising in the midst and starting the mess all over again? Of course I am asking this question using Christian interpretations. So again, what assurance would Christians have that after 70 gazibillion years of telling god how cute he is, how wonderful he is and how big and bad he is, stroking up his ego, that someone won't step forward and say, "man this shit's boring! Isn't there like some idiot we can pick on to make him or her do something retarded like, eat from the tree of death or sup'n?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixentrox Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 I've used this argument before as well. If there was a rebellion in heaven once before, who is to say it would not happen again? And to add to that, for there to be a rebellion there has to be dissatisfaction. Dissatisfaction in heaven? How then can it be a place of perfection? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 Supposedly Eden and the world before the fall was perfect . How can it have been perfect if A&E had the ability to sin, had the opportunity and the means to sin, and even the devil being present tempting them. And A&E didn't have the knowledge about good and evil even. How can that be "god-perfect" if god is always and only good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson Posted April 11, 2007 Author Share Posted April 11, 2007 I've used this argument before as well. If there was a rebellion in heaven once before, who is to say it would not happen again? And to add to that, for there to be a rebellion there has to be dissatisfaction. Dissatisfaction in heaven? How then can it be a place of perfection? Fantastic point! Gotta include that in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson Posted April 11, 2007 Author Share Posted April 11, 2007 Supposedly Eden and the world before the fall was perfect . How can it have been perfect if A&E had the ability to sin, had the opportunity and the means to sin, and even the devil being present tempting them. And A&E didn't have the knowledge about good and evil even. How can that be "god-perfect" if god is always and only good. Great questions!~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Follier Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 By accessing my mental archives, I am able to forecast the most likely Christian response to this question: In the end times, God will banish Satan and his minions to the Lake of Fire for all eternity. However, assuming that this event were to take place, what is to say that another angel in the presence of God won't spontaneously recreate the sin of jealousy and be expelled from heaven? Would that angel then be forced to roam the New Earth or whatever other planet God will have by then populated to torture? Would the new Adam & Eve then be subjected to this new demon's tricks? Christians sure are a gullible bunch, as are all religious zealots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 I don't know why Christians throw around the word "robot" like it means something that it doesn't really mean. By definition, a robot is programmed. Therefore for Christians the reality is that we are all robots because we function as programmed by a creator. The fact that we have the "free will" to make our own decisions is still a function of his programming..... but more important the variables that the processor (our mind) uses as inputs to exercise our "free will" are also programmed. Based on Christian beliefs if this is all correct, we're still robots, just a more complex robot than a human could create. But Christians don't want to admit this, because that would render their argument useless. I guess if the input that we process to make decisions (i.e. everything that we experience) is totally arbitrary and *not* manipulated by "god", they might have an argument, but if that were true then that would mean god has no interaction with humans which would mean things like prayer are useless. It would also invalidate most of the Bible where god or Cheezus comes to earth to manipulate and influence the inputs we receive to our brain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 By accessing my mental archives, I am able to forecast the most likely Christian response to this question: In the end times, God will banish Satan and his minions to the Lake of Fire for all eternity. However, assuming that this event were to take place, what is to say that another angel in the presence of God won't spontaneously recreate the sin of jealousy and be expelled from heaven? Would that angel then be forced to roam the New Earth or whatever other planet God will have by then populated to torture? Would the new Adam & Eve then be subjected to this new demon's tricks? Christians sure are a gullible bunch, as are all religious zealots. Now, you know that God would never allow that to happen again. He just let it happen the first time for fun. Follier, weren't you here a few years back? Your name sounds familiar... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Follier Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 Now, you know that God would never allow that to happen again. He just let it happen the first time for fun. Follier, weren't you here a few years back? Your name sounds familiar... No, this is my first and only membership to Ex-C. Sadly, I don't get to post nearly as often as I would like due to the fact that I am technically "on the clock" at work as I'm sure many other posters here are. When I get home at the end of a busy workday, the rest of my night is devoted to my family and my online education (literally). I'm curious what other handle is close to my own. I thought mine was pretty clever (hopefully that doesn't sound too conceited) as a play on words as I am a "Former Follower" of Christ and that it was a great "folly". Ehh... makes sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbie Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 Well, if you look at it from the viewpoint of the Eastern Orthodox and Catholic denominations, it actually makes a lot more sense, imo. Rather than being 'saved' by saying a 'sinners' prayer' and then suddenly being fully ready to fly up into the sky and meet Jebus at a moment's notice, 'salvation' is a gradual process by which people become more and more aligned with God's Nature. This is the central journey of Eastern Orthodoxy, anmd they call it theosis or deification, which is basically becoming one with God's Energy (though not Her actual Being/Essence...so it's not actually becoming God per se). Anyhoo, if this process is not complete by death, it is continued in the next life. The Catholics call it purgatory, but the Eastern Orthodox merely believe there is probably some period/state of purgation after death. Thus, upon entering heaven, the Blessed have become, without being coerced (theoretically), in perfect harmony with God, such that they will not want to commit a sin, which is defined as anything contrary to God. ^^Sorry to toe the old party line...I just can't resist a bit of mysticism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 Often I hear [some] Christians say that god gave us free will because "who would want to be a robot?" If the serpent hadn't been a good salesman, then, according to Genesis, we'd have been robots anyway... that was what god wanted... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 Well, God supposedly gave free will to Satan first, since he acted on his own will. So wouldn't God have seen the outcome of this experiment already then? An Angel, perfect in all aspect, with free will, creates the concept of sin, would be quite a turnoff for future endavours. Some Christians say no one will use their free will to rebel against god in Heaven because you will be facing god, and you won't do it, just because you don't want to by seing his "magnificence"... well, same thing there, Satan was in god's presence all the time, and still fell. No one is safe when free will is in play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 That's Free Will not free will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 Maybe it is really free Will? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 Free will, free Will, or Free Will? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick5 Posted April 12, 2007 Share Posted April 12, 2007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted April 12, 2007 Share Posted April 12, 2007 BWHAH-HA-HAAAAA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhampir Posted April 12, 2007 Share Posted April 12, 2007 Supposedly Eden and the world before the fall was perfect . How can it have been perfect if A&E had the ability to sin, had the opportunity and the means to sin, and even the devil being present tempting them. And A&E didn't have the knowledge about good and evil even. How can that be "god-perfect" if god is always and only good. Someone in a chatroom once told me that being perfect just meant that they hadn't sinned, not that the didn't have the ability to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted April 12, 2007 Share Posted April 12, 2007 Supposedly Eden and the world before the fall was perfect . How can it have been perfect if A&E had the ability to sin, had the opportunity and the means to sin, and even the devil being present tempting them. And A&E didn't have the knowledge about good and evil even. How can that be "god-perfect" if god is always and only good. Someone in a chatroom once told me that being perfect just meant that they hadn't sinned, not that the didn't have the ability to do so. Conclusive proof of the semantic back flips people will make to exculpate their imaginary, perfect, friend. what's the point of an invisible, silent friend, if you can't blame them for stuff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted April 12, 2007 Share Posted April 12, 2007 Supposedly Eden and the world before the fall was perfect . How can it have been perfect if A&E had the ability to sin, had the opportunity and the means to sin, and even the devil being present tempting them. And A&E didn't have the knowledge about good and evil even. How can that be "god-perfect" if god is always and only good. Someone in a chatroom once told me that being perfect just meant that they hadn't sinned, not that the didn't have the ability to do so. What about Satan in the garden? Or the fruit that would have evil consequences? Was that really a perfect world? I still maintain that Yahweh's opinion about what is perfect is not so perfect in my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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