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Guest Conspicio
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Guest Conspicio

Hello. As you probably noticed I am new here. I’ve been browsing the forums for a few days after happening upon this site by pure chance. This group of people really seems supportive; perhaps I can finally find what I need to deprogram the clutches religion still has on me. I feel it is only fair that I share my story; perhaps it will help someone that went through the same things as I did. Suffice to say I feel severely scarred.

 

My parents taught my Sunday school class when I was around 6 or 7 years of age. Now that I write about it… this is where a lot of questions popped into my mind about our faith. There was a kid; I forget his name so let’s call him Sam. Sam would scream in Sunday school about how he hated god, loved the devil, would refuse to listen to bible verses etc. Sam was raised by his grandmother because his natural parents were alcoholics and addicted to crack cocaine. I distinctly recall seeing more than a few bruises on Sam. My parents turned him over to the church higher-ups. Their logic? A kid that is so disruptive like that, has bruises, and is downright “evil” must be possessed. Instead of getting him psychological counseling… god knows what they did to Sam. I would wager they tried to pray the demons out of him. It didn’t work.

 

While sitting through brainwashing (Children’s Church!) I learned that my favorite cartoon heroes, the good old Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, were of the devil. They were mutants and used violence to solve their problems, which was wrong. At the same kids service they also passed out tracts that condemned video games, any sort of secular music and entertainment. I see now how cult like it was, how it completely shut me off to any other influence than theirs. Its terrifying people can do this to their children.

 

When I was about 11 or so we moved to Salt Lake City, Utah. While enrolled in a southern Baptist church’s school in Utah I distinctly remember the bible studies led by the principle. This guy was my hero and inspired me to read revelations and such. When called upon to share mine during a lecture I recited the one in revelations that was essentially “a star called wormwood fell down and caused 1/3 of the world to perish”. I was not allowed to explain my point that I had read that wormwood was somehow related to radiation and that helped prove that the bible was different from other holy books due to prophetic accuracy. It was a new exciting discovery to me…albeit spooky. There was silence. A glare at me that could have turned my heart to ice, and the ignorant words “YOUR favorite bible verse is where everyone dies?????”

 

Work eventually dried up for my family in Utah so we returned to Texas, rejoining the old church we used to be a part of. It had become an entire different beast while we were gone (about 4 years). Now it was a superchurch, larger than it had been before and now hosting a school in it! I was placed in it without a choice. After what I saw in the coming years I wish I had never set foot in that hellhole.

 

During my teen years I found myself “called” to do God’s work. I volunteered for working in the teen’s ministry to which I genuinely enjoyed. There I met a youth pastor whom was extremely unselfish and kind. Same with his assistant. After a while I entered a summer internship program to learn more about God. I spent less time learning about God and more time doing manual labor than you can imagine. God wanted us to paint the ceiling, move rusty pipes out of the attic and down rotten stairs, and what do you know…God wanted us to tear up the ill fated bowling alley the church installed. All in all the internship was essentially a way for the church to get work done for free. I shook that thought off for the moment and enrolled for a second summer when the time came. During the second internship I was late getting back from lunch (I was nice and picked up some food for kids that we couldn’t fit in my truck) and pretty much got the lecture of my life from the youth leader. I turned my back and walked right out the door. I never returned to that program again.

 

For those that had the stamina to read this far, this is the part that makes me physically shake when I talk about it. I was dating my current girlfriend way back in high school, and her home life could be summed up as physically abusive (extremely) and spiritually abusive. There was a specific incident where I had asked her to go to church with me on a Wednesday, to which she obliged. She had apparently had a very, very bad event happen at home (she still refuses to speak about it) and was seeking council from the Youth pastor. He had the audacity to ask her to “sit in the back of the rows so that she wouldn’t be a distraction” and walked off. He didn’t offer advice or condolence, but only condemnation. The bastard simply left her by herself, at which point she broke down crying. It shook me to the core and really began to tear down my illusions.

 

Meanwhile the pastor had gotten this crazy idea in his head that the church we were in was not big enough. We were CALLED by GOD to move to the Freeway. It was a good business decision; however it required 10 million dollars. Now, my mother was a teacher in the school I attended and would come home consistently complaining of the administration, as they were incompetent and ignorant. Hiring horrible teachers (example, Indian man that attempted to tell a 8th grade class that condom was condemn. He was the English teacher) to being downright corrupt as money earned by the school would go to the church, the school nary saw a dime. Oh yeah, they paid their teachers jack too.

 

I had had it with the church when they roped off the exits to the church during one Sunday so that people could put checks in an offering plate in front of the pastor in order to pay for the new building. For those reading this with any sort of a Christian background it should look as vile to you as it did to me. It was the Pharisees dropping money in an offering plate to look good, it was a social event, it was wrong. I’m still disgusted by it.

 

Now here is something that will destroy anyone’s soul. Essentially I was falsely accused of cheating on a test by a substitute teacher (she didn’t like some of my theological questions I suppose?) and was sent in to the Vice Principles office. In there was my accuser, the principle, and vice principle, along with my mother. I proved that I had not cheated, using about 10 witnesses, geometry, and common sense they determined that somehow I managed to read the answers from the book. At the time the said book was in my bookbag. Also, had I been cheating I would have passed, I flunked that test hardcore. Unsatisfied my accuser walked up to me and demonstrated where I had hidden answers! The answers were apparently supposed to be in my crotch, and after she played some pocket pool something snapped in my head and I shoved her off of me with every bit of force I could gather. The administration determined that I was cheating and that they would give me a Saturday detention and charge me 100$. Furthermore they blackmailed my mother from reporting this incident as she was somehow contractually bound to maintain amiable relations with staff.

 

 

I feel used, broken, beaten, sore, and bleeding, sounds cliché but its true. As traumatic as that incident was, I figured I had real Christian friends to stick up for me and help me out, even believe me. Wrong, they turned tail and pointed their fingers at me, saying it was my fault. One day I professed to a close friend that I was having a hard time believing that God exists…and that was the last time I spoke to him.

 

After living 19 years in hell, I escaped, for almost 4 years I have been attempting to make sense of all the lies and finding out just what the hell happened to me. The only question is what do I do now and how do you pick up the pieces? I’m still wondering. Please note that all the other things that Christianity is so adept at making one feel horrible about, such as hormones, love, sexuality, etc were very much issues for me. I did not mention them much because as sad as it is, I believe they are a given in a persons experience with the religion.

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Sorry for the wall of text. Hopefully it does not crush anyone :<

 

Not at all. Lots of folks here have similar horror stories. Not that it ever gets better when a new one is told...

 

My condolences to you (and your ladyfriend) - hardcore Xian upbringings usually end up either fucking up a person or or making that person so inwardly insane he or she doesn't see how fucked up he or she is. Kind of like how some say that the souls Cthulhu and the Old Ones will torture won't mind it because they are so completely insane as it is that they really won't notice a thing.

 

I find it ironic how they got upset at you for your favorite Babble verse being about the deaths of millions. After all, it's supposed to be a glorious, wonderful thing, right? The destruction of humans and of the earth can only herald the Second Cumming of Jebus™, so therefore it must be good. The Pat Robertsons and Jerry Falwells of the world even pray for it to happen soon.

 

That, and how many verses show the Xian god willfully engaging in mass murder or ordering it? From the Red Sea to the various campaigns ordered against this people or that, their god sure thought violence solved everything, it would seem :shrug:

 

But, all that aside, welcome to the board. You'll find many good people here and lots of good advice. Leaving any sort of psychologically harmful belief system, such as Xianity, is bound to be hard, but you're on the right track. The beginning is tough, but it will get better, so long as you don't slip back into the old addiction (as has happened to some).

 

That only makes it worse, but aside from that, I wish you well and hope to see you around more often :wave:

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Thanks for telling your story. Fundy's never cease to amaze me with their hypocritical actions. Parents should teach their children how to think and not what to think. If a popular author were to take your story and a hundred other stories like yours and publish them in a book, people would see how rampant the child abuse is in Christianity. When a case like yours finally makes it to a newsdesk, it looks like an isolated incident, I think people would find that stories like this are way more common.

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Conspicio, your story is truly awful. In the olden days they used to kill heretics. These days they inflict psychological torture, social ostracism, and other types of severe abuse in the name of religious freedom. It can go on indefinitely. Many of us here have experienced some level of it. I confess I could not read your story because it is so awful. Too many flashbacks of my own experiences. I am glad you could write it out. If you are like me, then writing it out is therapeutic. I have found very much help on this site and I trust you can, too.

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Guest Conspicio

I appreciate the replies! However is there some way you can prepare yourself for inevitable family conflicts? Mine is half Catholic and half "fundie" as you may say. Does not take a genius to predict friction.

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I appreciate the replies! However is there some way you can prepare yourself for inevitable family conflicts? Mine is half Catholic and half "fundie" as you may say. Does not take a genius to predict friction.

 

My only advice is to bone up on intelligent anti-xian criticism, and commit it to memory for use in any debate rip-roaring argument. Get used to debating, or at least defending your position in a strong yet polite manner, so when the holy shit does hit the fan, at least you can meet the challenge bravely and adequately.

 

Even if they don't listen :angry:

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I appreciate the replies! However is there some way you can prepare yourself for inevitable family conflicts? Mine is half Catholic and half "fundie" as you may say. Does not take a genius to predict friction.

 

There may be ways to counter-argue their points. But to get them to accept even a minimum of your position? Sorry. Harsh reality is all we're left with. By "we" I mean those of us from strict religious families. I don't know if by "family" you include your own spouse and in-laws and kids, or if you are a young person dealing with parents, siblings, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. I don't know if it matters. I think some of the most heart-rending stories we encounter on here are parents alienated from spouse and kids because of religion, and having to watch their own kids being raised by a fundamentalist ex, and knowing they will have to deprogram themselves or succomb to the religious crap.

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Guest Conspicio

I have no children and I am not married. I consider myself lucky to have put the pieces about religion together myself. It is impossible to imagine the hurt that would be involved in spousal/child issues inside a family. My family is simply my sibling, fundamental Christian parents and a horde of Catholic aunts and uncles and grandparents. Hehe... Once I got scolded by them because I "knew" that the communion does not turn into Christs blood and flesh. It was my suggestion that we grab a chainsaw and we can solve that argument really quick. Did not fly too well.

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Okay I read your story now.

 

I feel used, broken, beaten, sore, and bleeding, sounds cliché but its true. As traumatic as that incident was, I figured I had real Christian friends to stick up for me and help me out, even believe me. Wrong, they turned tail and pointed their fingers at me, saying it was my fault. One day I professed to a close friend that I was having a hard time believing that God exists…and that was the last time I spoke to him.

 

Who wouldn't feel this way? I've been there. People (esp. my family and former faith community) disbelieve me all the time no matter how concrete the evidence I provide. The only thing I have found to work for myself is to cut ties. I started getting really strict with this when my family accused me of some vague but extremely serious offense. I know it was serious because of the way they treated me. But no one told me exactly what it was I had done that was so offensive. After putting together a lot of pieces after the fact, I think I know what I did wrong but to this day I don't know for sure. It looks to me like they baited me and then condemned me for doing what they had tried to get me to do.

 

Here's what I think happened. I know for a fact that my one sister was seriously upset when I told her that I had a meeting with a Pagan. She believed I had turned my back on god and nothing I could say to the contrary convinced her. Some weeks later the family circle letter came around. There was a discussion going on about religion. I joined in because I love theology. One item was my mother's question: I wonder what unbelievers think happens when they die? I replied, "They think death is the end." Iknew that from this site.

 

There were a few other items like that. Also, I decided not to keep the lid on anymore and stated some of my opinions about life. I stated them as fact, just like the others did about their opinions/beliefs. It fitted the discussion perfectly. It was like discussing religion on this forum except it was with my family. I thought everybody knew it was a discussion and nothing more. I was delighted that at long last they were talking about interesting stuff. (Most of their letters are so deadeningly boring that I haven't been part of the circle letter a lot; I'd just given it another try.) That letter is what brought down the roof of the world onto my head.

 

I was accused of "wanting something more." I was totally baffled and couldn't imagine what the accusation was about--what that "something more" could be that they thought I wanted. I still don't know for sure. I told the caller that I had just joined a conversation that others had started. In other words, I had not tried to pick a fight or start a new topic. "That has been stopped now," I was told in an ominous voice over the phone, as though something really horrible had been going on.

 

I pondered the thing for days. I suspect that conversation in the letters had been started to "get me thinking" about my evil ways. That's the bait I mentioned above. Since I do not consider myself to be doing anything wrong or evil I do not feel any guilt about anything. Nor do I have any problem if they talk about religion. All I'm asking for is equal rights. Since I did participate in the conversation I guess they felt justified in laying accusations against me without checking things out. She did apologize for the letter and for something else that eludes my mind at the moment. I don't think she doubts for a single second that they had convicted me and that I wiggled my way out of a confession. I think that apology was only for the way she mishandled the situation that she (and a lot of others) believed happened but didn't.

 

I believe they thought I had intentionally tried to get them to leave their faith and to think like I do. The thought had not even entered my mind. All I wanted was to participate in the discussion others had started. Will I try and explain? I did try in a letter. I never heard back. I believe they realize that they misunderstood me and falsely accused me, but that they cannot for the life of them admit it. Many other things have happened, too, and basically I cut contact. They will not respect my request to hold off so I toss out letters unread when I feel so inclined. I've been accused for cutting communication and thereby making reconcilliation impossible. Talk about distorted, tangled, and knotted-up double-binds! Just imagine the hurt I feel to even want to cut ties. I guess that's asking too much of righteous perverts.

 

There was one cousin who professed to care for me and promised to stand by me. But when I described some agonizing interaction with my sisters and that my mother had been less than ideal, she disbelieved me and said, "Yes, I am scolding you." I cut contact with that woman as fast as I could figure out how to block email. It happened but a few weeks after mom's funeral, which is a whole nother volume. If that is how she "supports" a person in the throes of grief and family issues, I don't need her in my life.

 

Sorry, this thread is about you. I thought perhaps it might comfort you to know others have been through similar mistreatment.

 

After living 19 years in hell, I escaped, for almost 4 years I have been attempting to make sense of all the lies and finding out just what the hell happened to me. The only question is what do I do now and how do you pick up the pieces? I'm still wondering. Please note that all the other things that Christianity is so adept at making one feel horrible about, such as hormones, love, sexuality, etc were very much issues for me. I did not mention them much because as sad as it is, I believe they are a given in a persons experience with the religion.

 

I guess the powers that be could not face up to having hired a pervert to substitute teach. I don't know too much about stuff but I suspect you could still report the sexual molestation to the legal authorities. People have won cases they reported twenty years after the event if it was a parent who had done it. I would think the principal would have to stand good for having allowed it. If I'm not mistaken, it was illegal of that woman to physically touch you in the first place. You did right in shoving her off.

 

As for the fine and detention and false accusations.....there's probably little to be gained in pursuing justice at this point. Do what has to be done and cut ties with those horrible people.

 

My family is simply my sibling, fundamental Christian parents and a horde of Catholic aunts and uncles and grandparents. Hehe... Once I got scolded by them because I "knew" that the communion does not turn into Christs blood and flesh. It was my suggestion that we grab a chainsaw and we can solve that argument really quick. Did not fly too well.

 

Yeah, if I had read your story before posting that question I would have suspected that you're not married. I think I forgot for the moment that I hadn't read it. Sorry. Let me tell you this--you come across as a good-natured person. I hope to see more of you.

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is there some way you can prepare yourself for inevitable family conflicts?

 

If you're not dependant on your family, and they refuse to let you be and/or accept you as a hellbound heathern, then the best way is to just minimalize or break contact with them.

 

In my opinion, the saying "Blood is thicker than water" is a load of shit. If your family doesn't respect you then you needn't feel guilty for "leaving" them.

 

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Guest Conspicio

I got into it with a Christian today. She asked what made me consider myself an atheist. I regurgitated the story I posted above. Here is essentially a transcript of what we discussed. I wanted to see if you all could pinpoint the flawed logic and how to counter it. Typos are included.

 

 

Me: *explains sob story*

 

Her: aww honney im sorry

Her: how do u pick up the peices

Her: u realize that ur not the victim, they sinned against god, unfortunally it afected YOU

Her: and then you forgive

Her: becuase we are all human, and we all suck

Her: thats why we need jesus

Conspicio: I've been really studying the bible.

Conspicio: That didnt help.

Conspicio: In fact the more I dug into things the more confused things got.

Her: thats why we need wise people in our life, who we can talk things out with

Her: thats why i love my church

Her: they encourage the elder people to pour wisdom into the lives of the younger people

Conspicio: Meh...too often agendas are disguised as wisdom.

Her: if u get wisdom from an unwise person

Her: yeah that will happen

Her: thats why you watch the character of people, then you will know who is wise

Her: those are the people you talk to

Her: not just any joe schmo ( which includes pastors)

Conspicio: what are the main points of your church

Conspicio: like...firm dogma (I hate that word)

Conspicio: to obey the word, in anything and everything

Her: www.XXXXXX.net

Her: you can hear butchs sermons online

Conspicio: If we do that then we get to kill worshipers of other gods, "rebellious" children, those who are careless with murderous livestock...and we hate people who eat crab or shrimp.

Her: thats not all the word says honey

Conspicio: But its part of the whole

Her: that was for the people who had to earn god's favor with their own actions

Her: jesus died so we dont have to kill small furry animals

Her: have you read romans lately

Her: or can you promise to listen to at least one of XXXXXXXX's sermons

Conspicio: I haent

Conspicio: I havent

Her: im finding a good one

Her: a sermon

Conspicio: Yeah, but the thing is that the old testament God fits in all too well with old tribal gods.

Her: or maybe tribal gods are similar to old testament

Her: becuase they are close to the truth, but not quite there

Conspicio: Thats circular logic. (Lol I think I was wrong there...)

Her: no

Her: its saying the word is the truth

Her: others have come close

Her: but they arent true

Her: something to realize is the old testiment god is the same new testament god

Her: he never changed

Conspicio: Sure he did.

Her: NO

Her: ahh sorry it went all caps

Conspicio: He used to advent genocide.

Her: whoops

Her: hold on , ill tell you

Her: God is holy, anything less is unacceptable

Her: hints the flood, they were so far from holy, it disgusted god

Her: God today, and new testament, is still the same god, who is serious about sin, its just as unacceptable today, as it was in old testament

Conspicio: but something changed

Conspicio: The flood theory isn't even possible.

Her: just listen

Her: Jesus came, (god) becuase he wanted us to be free from sin, he wanted us to be holy, so that we could be near him

 

Her: he cares about us, and wants a relationship with us, the same as old testament ( abraham , and david are good examples)

Her: and Jesus Facilites that, by cleansing us of our sin

Her: Before Jesus, God had to resort to other methods to being about holyness and repentance

Her: yeah he destroyed many things

Her: but when the people turned from their sin, to follow him, he was

Her: full of mercy and grace

Conspicio: Hes omnipotent correct.

Her: yeah

Conspicio: Then he could have circumvented causing people to have a nature to do things that he knows would cause them pain.

Conspicio: Its sadistic.

Conspicio: If he cant, then hes not all powerful.

Her: have you thought about all the possible , worser things that could have happened, but he stopped

Her: he doesnt let anything to happen, that cannot be used to glorify him

Her: if he is omniopotent

Her: them why would you question him

Her: doesnt he know more than you

Her: what makes you think u know better than him

Her: I don't belive something because I'm told to. I will believe in something that is truth.

Her: well it is truth, weither you believe it or not

Conspicio: If he is omnipotent I'd think that he could have made it a tad clearer.

Her: i dont see how he could have made it clearer

Her: what he wants us to know, he put into the bible

Her: he tells you exactly what he wants for you

Her: what more is there?

Conspicio: The bible was put together by the council of nicea, and largely was used to further their own interests.

Conspicio: I.E. women being treated differently.

Her: and you dont think god is bigger

Her: than a few people

Her: you dont think he could have directed them

Her: yeah women should be treated different

Her: we are different

Conspicio: I dont think you all need to be treated as property. Thats kind of what the bible puts forth. Its sad.

Her: No, it doesnt. It tells men to treat their wives like christ treated the church (Christ died for the church, )honey i would love to continue this tomorow, but ive got to get to bed. Please listen to this sermon, and let me know what you think. And if you.

 

 

I was being nice. I did not mention the Crusades and Hitler when she set herself up for it. Tear my arguments up, critique me, her, I do not care.

 

*sidenote* No matter what at least I am the better speller eh?

 

<(^-^<) <(^-^)> (>^-^)> <--- Be amazed at dancing Kirby.

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Conspicio: I dont think you all need to be treated as property. Thats kind of what the bible puts forth. Its sad.

Her: No, it doesnt. It tells men to treat their wives like christ treated the church

 

Obviously she has not read the Bible all the way through. Just look at the stories of Saul and David. Saul keeps promising his daughter to David if David manages to get rid of the Philistine threat or whatever the problem was. To me, it's kind of like, "Hey Dave, if you can clean up that Philistine mess over there you get my best cow" only it's his oldest daughter rather than a cow. It does not seem as though the daughter has any say in the matter, though she turns out to be a vocal woman with some influence over the men in her life. But she doesn't get to decide who these men will be, not even the man she is expected to sleep with and bear his children. If that is not treating women like property I don't know what it is. I'm sure your girlfriend will be able to explain it all away but that does not change the situation.

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Guest Conspicio

Oh I am VERY well versed in religion. However since I've avoiding it for such a long time, and that I'm on the other side I need to explore it intently. She emailed me the sermon that she wanted me to listen to and I obliged. 2 and a half pages of faults in the mans logic. Of course this is explained away like "LOL U KANT XPLAIN GOD LOL" which leads us to one of the best reasons on why one does not exist. The more I listen the more I discover just how truly evil it is. Wish I could have thought up a religion that had millions of people giving me 10% of their income.

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Guest Conspicio
put up the website... I need the laugh!

 

 

I'd rather host the sermon somewhere. Do you know of any way to do it? The sermon is pure gold. Right off the bat he makes a fool of himself by professing ignorance. Moving on to a racist skit and homophobia. Then it culminates with repeated accusations of baseless guilt against humans. Then finally some dribble about how people ignore his marriage counseling (imagine that...).

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Oh I am VERY well versed in religion. However since I've avoiding it for such a long time, and that I'm on the other side I need to explore it intently. She emailed me the sermon that she wanted me to listen to and I obliged. 2 and a half pages of faults in the mans logic. Of course this is explained away like "LOL U KANT XPLAIN GOD LOL" which leads us to one of the best reasons on why one does not exist. The more I listen the more I discover just how truly evil it is. Wish I could have thought up a religion that had millions of people giving me 10% of their income.

 

I'm not sure what you are responding to here. I certainly did not mean to imply that you are naive or unversed in religion or anything. Nor did I see anyone else imply that.

 

I'd rather host the sermon somewhere. Do you know of any way to do it? The sermon is pure gold. Right off the bat he makes a fool of himself by professing ignorance. Moving on to a racist skit and homophobia. Then it culminates with repeated accusations of baseless guilt against humans. Then finally some dribble about how people ignore his marriage counseling (imagine that...).

 

I would suggest not to marry a woman who goes for this kind of sermon. What you've just experienced is not even the tip of the ice berg of what will happen if you get married and have kids with this woman. You should read some of the heart-rending tales on here from people who deconverted after they were married and had kids.

 

About hosting the sermon. I don't know the first thing about copyright law around posting/publishing someone else's sermon on the internet. Providing you've checked it out and it's okay, you can set up a blog on here or elsewhere and link to it with your signature. I think most folks here have heard lots of sermons like this but it might start some good cathartic discussion. Just be sure about the copyright thing. Chances are he will gladly give you written permission (email counts) to post it. Be sure to keep the email, or print it off and file it in a safe place somewhere.

 

Whether you actually do all this is up to you. But I can't in good conscience advise you to post it without informing you of the legalities. That's all. I personally have gone to considerable lengths to obtain written permission to post stuff. Most people might not bother. Still, I hate to tangle with fundies in high places and low self-esteem.

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Guest Conspicio

Oh I'm sorry Sera, I forget sometimes that tone does not transfer very well over the internet. I was simply emphasizing the word very. Your comments are always insightful and fully appreciated =D.

 

/signed about your little ditty on women like that. It is an absolute shame that they have been more or less tricked into making themselves less than human and absolute slaves (nearly) to their husbands will. And the worst part is they have no problem with it... I hope I find a mate, not a mindless zombie. You need some conflict to put some spice in your life =P

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Hey there Conspicio! Welcome.

 

I think you are very well spoken my man.

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