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Goodbye Jesus

Why Did You Deconvert?


R. S. Martin

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This kind of question is likely to bring up rants so I'm putting it here. Maybe the Lion's Den would be a better place but then again, some of us might not feel safe telling our honest reasons where Christians can have a free-for-all with us. I won't object if mods feel it should be moved.

 

Maybe this question has been posted before but I don't remember seeing it...All of a sudden I wonder if what I am asking here is what the Testimony of Former Christian section is for....LATER: I looked at its description and it does not say to tell the reason why we deconverted--just to tell about how people treated us and what it was like coming out, etc. So I think this is different.

 

Maybe it's because I'm crazy about theology, I don't know. But I've come across so many posts where people say they did not deconvert because of bad treatment by the church. A few people did, perhaps--esp. homosexuals, but not most. Lots of people have referred casually to the reason for their deconversion and it seems the biggest problem was theology. The things we were supposed to believe and couldn't. I have been amazed at the large variety of beliefs we had problems with. I think it would be interesting to have a thread about it. This is OP is rather long so I'll put my story in the first post.

 

I think even for homosexuals left in part because of the theology, i.e. they cannot believe that the way they were born is wrong, yet the Bible says it is and that is one OT rule that many Christian churches hold onto very stringently to this very day. I guess it's repeated in the NT. I note, though, that every homosexual's story is different, and that theology in general also played various roles, so I am not hereby excluding any exChristian from this story-telling. This is for anyone who has ever been a Christian is no longer a Christian.

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The virgin birth

 

Aged 5 I had a good idea that babies didn't happen that way. For making Christopher Sims cry by telling I thought it was all just a story... and backing it up that I knew taxes didn't work that way since my dad didn't have to go to where he was born for taxing, earned my a couple of hours being told to recant and a beating by the teacher. There was even talk of expulsion... Happy times...

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I deconverted because no Christian--or nonChristian for that matter--could tell me what changed when Jesus died. The Christians say that if Jesus had not died we couldn't go to heaven but because he died we can go to heaven if we believe.

 

When I say "I believe" I mean that it makes sense in my mind. That Jesus' death makes it possible for us to go to heaven makes no sense in my mind--not on a logical or emotional or philosophical or spiritual level. It makes sense only on a dogmatic level. And it makes sense on that level because dogma is just that--something humans have decided is a test of faith just because they believe it. Why do they believe it?

 

Most of them have all kinds of testimonies or stories or whatever. But when you dig down beneath all of that crap, you're left with arbitary belief. They have no way to verify that what they believe makes sense. It's what they were taught.

 

If only they had been honest about this from the beginning my life could have been so much easier. However, I think Christians cannot afford to realize that they believe just because they were told to, or because they were overwhelmed by an evangelist at a vulnerable time, or for whatever reason....

 

They will say with so much emotion that "I just KNOW it's true." Or "I've come through things in life that I could not have handled without faith in Jesus." Etc. It was so convincing that I assumed it's just me being stupid that I can't get it. However, after I hit forty, something hit me front and centre: You are now old enough to know.

 

Yes, that is what I was told at every turn when I was a child and teenager: You will understand when you get older. Well, being forty years old seemed like I was now "older." That was ten years ago. In the past ten years I have been exposed to other religions as never before. This includes many of the major world religions such as Judaism, Islam, and Buddhism.

 

I have never seen any of these religions in a dominant situation. They were always in a very definite minority. And I think only people who really believe their religion are likely to hold onto their beliefs in such a setting, so I think my exposure was for real. The Christian doctrine that we become like the people around us simply doesn't hold.

 

I did not convert to Buddhism just because I was among Buddhists. That religion is what appeals to me most, but I don't want to go through what is required to become a Buddhist. Nor do I at this point want to be burdened with their metaphysics. I did think about the visual impact of myself in traditional Mennonite garb walking across campus with a Buddhist monk in his orange/yellow robe.

 

We were both students taking the same course and it so happened that the two of us were going to the library at the same time. Or maybe it was something else. It was several years ago and I forget exactly what we were up to, but we walked together.

 

So the reason I deconverted was that I no longer wanted to lie. The biggest thing that bothered me was the belief that Jesus death and resurrection somehow made heaven possible for repentent believers. I don't need a sacrifice in order to forgive offenses. I have to forgive in order to retain my sanity. And most of the people I have to forgive refuse to admit that THEY did anything wrong. But god can't forgive people who are very sorry for their offenses????

 

Gimme a break! The guy is supposed to be almighty. I confess that it requires considerable energy to forgive when people don't think they did anything wrong. But for people who are genuinely sorry--just what is the matter with this almighty and totally perfect god that he can't forgive people who have repented and confessed their sinfulness??? Why does he need a blood sacrifice?

 

 

 

If, by any chance, god can forgive like any normal being, then why did Jesus have to die??? At that point, Christianity makes no sense. I think that is why Christians won't for the life of them confess that their god is big enough to forgive and forget. Yes, he should not only forgive but also forget. Only in that can he possibly be better than humans. There are many offenses we cannot forget but we can forgive. Forgive means to let go and not demand justice.

 

But he can't forgive. He absolutely needs justice. And somehow or other Jesus' death was justice. Just hold your peace, you christies. You don't like having it put that way. Yet when we put together all the pieces this is what we end up with. If anyone can explain it better feel free to do so. But don't expect me to accept it without seriously cross-examining it from every angle.

 

There are many other problems with Christian theology but that is the key issue for me. It was an agonizing decision to announce that I am not a Christian. But Christians were kicking me out because they didn't like the things I was saying. Even so, it was a conscious and deliberate but agonizing decision on my part to confess being not a christian.

And I did it for one reason only: It is wrong to lie.

 

I won't go out of my way to tell people. But I won't lie in cases where I feel it's worth the bother to speak up. The biggest thing is in my own mind I am being honest with myself. I no longer lie to myself that I am a christian when I really am not.

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I'm not sure if this is where you are going with this but for me it was unexpected, almost an accident. If you would have told me a couple years ago I would be calling myself an atheist, I would have said no way. I was not affaid to question things, I thought if it's true, what do I have to be affraid of? The first book I read that really made me go "wow" was Sins of the scripture by Bishop Spong, Misqutoreing Jesus by Bart Ehrlman, then End of Faith by Sam Harris. I would say the nail in the coffin was Dan Barker's Loosing Faith in Faith. It was like I was rational about everthing else in my life except god. It was almost like my brain had a partition. Well now I think rationally about god so I'm no longer calling myself a christian.

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The virgin birth

 

Aged 5 I had a good idea that babies didn't happen that way. For making Christopher Sims cry by telling I thought it was all just a story... and backing it up that I knew taxes didn't work that way since my dad didn't have to go to where he was born for taxing, earned my a couple of hours being told to recant and a beating by the teacher. There was even talk of expulsion... Happy times...

 

That's crazy! Why didn't they just explain? I guess that tells how very unsupportable xian beliefs are.

 

However, my mother was a genius at explaining away rational objections. That is what made it seriously difficult for me. In her better moods, she would say things like, "Oh Ruby, we are mere mortals. We can't expect to understand how God does these things. We just know he does and we need to be satisfied with that." She would say this in a tone that told me if I wanted her to like me at all, I better accept her word for it. Thus, the bottom line was emotional manipulation but I trusted it was God's truth because Mom said so.

 

I guess that is what I mean by "Why didn't they just explain." My mother did explain, but not in a way that held water over the long haul when subjected to critical reason and historical fact. However, as a child I was not forced to stand up for my beliefs like that. I just don't understand the bullying you describe. You a mere child and a little one at that (five rather than, say, fifteen), and them adults. How could they hold a little kid like that accountable???

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I'm not sure if this is where you are going with this but for me it was unexpected, almost an accident. If you would have told me a couple years ago I would be calling myself an atheist, I would have said no way. I was not affaid to question things, I thought if it's true, what do I have to be affraid of? The first book I read that really made me go "wow" was Sins of the scripture by Bishop Spong, Misqutoreing Jesus by Bart Ehrlman, then End of Faith by Sam Harris. I would say the nail in the coffin was Dan Barker's Loosing Faith in Faith. It was like I was rational about everthing else in my life except god. It was almost like my brain had a partition. Well now I think rationally about god so I'm no longer calling myself a christian.

 

I don't know either where I'm going and it doesn't matter. That is a wonderful story and I love it. Thanks for sharing it. I especially like what you say about a partition in the brain. I never had this partition so I didn't know people do, but that is the only thing that makes sense of some people's thought and behaviour patterns.

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I'm not sure if this is where you are going with this but for me it was unexpected, almost an accident. If you would have told me a couple years ago I would be calling myself an atheist, I would have said no way. I was not affaid to question things, I thought if it's true, what do I have to be affraid of? The first book I read that really made me go "wow" was Sins of the scripture by Bishop Spong, Misqutoreing Jesus by Bart Ehrlman, then End of Faith by Sam Harris. I would say the nail in the coffin was Dan Barker's Loosing Faith in Faith. It was like I was rational about everthing else in my life except god. It was almost like my brain had a partition. Well now I think rationally about god so I'm no longer calling myself a christian.

 

I don't know either where I'm going and it doesn't matter. That is a wonderful story and I love it. Thanks for sharing it. I especially like what you say about a partition in the brain. I never had this partition so I didn't know people do, but that is the only thing that makes sense of some people's thought and behaviour patterns.

Yeah, it's like I just didn't go there with the big god question until I was ready to. It's ironic but when I was a christian, I remember saying you can't force feed people if the aren't hungry for "the word". I think the same goes for the willingness to ask yourself the big" what if god isn't real" question. Some people aren't hungry for it.

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I didn't have major doubts, I believed in Christianity. I didn't have lingering questions or was bothered by contradictions in the Bible. I believed it. To me, it was the inerrent Word of God. Yes, I had doubts here and there, but I attributed that to Satan. Really, I did.

 

I bought my first computer in 2000 and I found all this information about Christainity (contradictory) that I had never known. It made sense, a lot of sense. I went to the library and requested the books through the lending library and started reading and reading and reading.

I also read books defending the faith, but by then I'd understood "begging the question" and circular reasoning so I was very disappointed. I prayed and prayed and prayed to God to show me Christianity was true and to direct me to something, any proven source outside the Bible that Christianity was true. I found nothing. I thought for about a year that if I died, I was going to hell because I just couldn't believe that Jesus died for my sins any longer. I wanted to believe, but I couldn't.

 

It wasn't until after I discovered that Christianity isn't true that I began seeing all the problems with it. It was like a light switched on and I could see it clearly.

 

In the process I discovered myself. Without the influence of my Christian beliefs, I had no idea who I was or what my opinoin was on issues. Like abortion, I read both sides of the issues not having any idea where my position on it would be. I'm pro-choice now. Also, homosexuality, I went to places where I knew a lot of gay people hung out and I talk to them, asked them lots of questions, and now I'm very pro-gay rights.

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It was a gradual process. I asked a lot of questions and the answers I was getting were not satisfying... so it went from 'god is mysterious and I don't know his intent' to 'there is no god'. I think coming here to ex-christian.net and reading a lot of other material, blogs, articles and books on the subject was a big step towards the latter. The biggest contributor to my atheism though is attending this Pentecostal church I was invited to by my friends, the things people were doing there (spiritual ascendancy in music, speaking in tongues, faith healings and others) got me really interested in religious experience that I had to read up on it. My best friend was baptised at that church and told me he was troubled he couldn't speak in tongues, I came home that night and googled speaking in tongues and I got to this forum, and from there I explored the many links posted by people there... I think that is how I found this place :D. Thanks to this cyber-adventure I am armed enough now to refute people who have the Jesus itch on them that only I can scratch.

 

Reading a lot about the doubts of others consolidated my own, fortified my belief in a no-god and I eventually broke free and told everyone I know.

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Many factors overall, I think.

 

First, life painted a very different picture of reality than Xian teaching. That which Xianity said would work in theory did not in practice. Furthermore, it encumbered my ability to live and enjoy life, and only added to my frustration when I'd pray for the promised help that never came when things got rough. I saw that real life and Xian psychobabble didn't mix.

 

I also wanted to simply live and enjoy my time on earth. Naturally, apologists would say that I left because I "wanted to sin" and I suppose they are right; after all, enjoying things like porn or other religious practices is sinful, and I chose to leave oppressive Xianity so I could enjoy these things without fear or guilt. Guilty as charged :)

 

Getting together with the woman who would become my wife also helped. She was also veering away from Xianity and we ended up helping each other along. Nifty, that.

 

I could go on, but it would get tiresome. Suffice it to say that Xianity and leading a fulfilled life, overcoming problems, or coming to rational conclusions about things just didn't dovetail, so one had to go. Jebus got kicked to the curb, and here I am :)

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I never understood how an all loving god could allow hell to exist. Never got the trinity. Never understood how if God and Jesus were real, Christians should be killing people in wars. (I actually considered converting to JWism, but talked to them, and had issues with their theology, too.

Then there was the oppression of women in the OT reinforced by Paul in the NT. Young Earth. God hardening pharaoh's heart then punishing (and a bunch of egyptian infants and children) him for having a hard heart. Exactly who gets to decide what "fornication" is. God making people gay and then being pissed off at them for being gay.

 

Those are things I wondered about, but it was all the suffering in the world, in addition to a compelling argument I heard (tried to debunk but couldn't) about how god was made in the image of man, not man made in the image of god. That just made more sense all around, from the women as property to the rapes and genocides in the OT...that's what made me get real about the issue of what the biblical god was, and it became clear that he was a monster created in the middle east during a brutal time by a tribe of nomads...end of story.

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5 or 6 years ago, I would have laughed at the idea that I would be an atheist. There were actually two separate (but related) things that caused me to change.

 

I was really into apologetics in college...and yet I found most of the answers to biblical contradictions to be a bit hollow, or incomplete. As a result I questioned a lot of my campus ministry leaders about these things...which they didn't like. At the same time, I was fervently praying to god for about 3 years for him to give me a direction to go for my life, and how I could serve him.

 

I thought I had an answer from him several times, at one point I changed my major over it and nearly flunked out of college because I couldn't hack it as a music major. experiences like that ( I had several more) started making me thing that perhaps what I though was god speaking was nothing more than a voice in my own head.

 

Before I graduated, I had several ministry leaders in the ministry I was involved in (whom I thought were friends) stab me in the back (metaphorically speaking) I had been planing on going into some form of college, or music ministry, and knew I needed references from them. They refused, because they said I was not "reliable" enough and they didn't think I was "ministry material" They said I made decisions to rashly, I tried to tell them I was only doing what I thought God wanted, but they didn't want to listen.

 

by the time I graduated I was having serious doubts about the theology, and about Christians in general. I had no job prospects and was stuck living with my parents for a while, which gave me lots of time to read and do research, once I started reading anti-apologetics arguments it was all down hill from there, It was obvious from the start how much better thought out the "oppositions" position was, and now I understood why all the apologetics I had read in college seemed so empty and pointless. It didn't take me long to go from Christian to agnostic to atheist a short time later

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I was raised by agnostics and athiests, so I wasn't brought up in any particular denomination of Christianity, I just sort of picked it up on my own. I tried to be Christian, but I don't think I ever believed in it. I mean, I liked some of the stories, but literally think they happened? Come on.

 

Mostly, I just didn't get it. It was one contridiction after another, and I couldn't get any straight answers on the Bible. For example:

 

"Adam and Eve committed the original sin by eating from the Tree of Knowledge."

 

"That wasn't the original sin. The original sin came when their children were born. Because you have to be BORN to have original sin. Adam and Eve weren't born."

 

You can imagine the babbling theological argument that ran in circles over that one, and still nobody explained why God was such a stupid dick to put the tree there in the first place.

 

I eventually gave up on Christianity mostly because I realized there was NO way I could win. I couldn't "do" it right. Did I just have to accept Jesus and his magic sacrifice guaranteed me into heaven no matter what? Or is salvation like washing a plate, I have to keep "cleaning" myself in order to be useful again? Or am I just damned no matter what I do because I wasn't Catholic, or Protestant, or Methodist, or Baptist...

 

I did very much want a "relationship" with the Creator, but Christianity was just too far fetched to believe. So I got into Paganism, and eventually tailor-made my own version of what I though the Creator was. I was a pretty hard core theist up until this last fall when after a series of rough events and hard looks at life, I just up quit believing all together.

 

So far, nothing I've done or believed has mattered much in the scheme of things.

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Looking at world religions and deciding there can't be one right religion as well as the inconsistencies I seen in Christianity and my worldview not agreeing with Conservative Christianity. Also considering there was no God for the first time also helped. :D

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There are a whole boatload of reasons why I deconverted. The process got started with a variation on the Problem of Evil. But maybe the most compelling reason was that I finally reached a point where it was time to stop and take a good, hard look at my faith - and when I looked good and hard at it, it just didn't make any sense at all.

 

So it just fell apart.

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I left Christianity because the Bible presents God as being brutal and ignorant.

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Thank you so much for sharing your stories, everyone. The one thing that comes through loud and clear is the sincerity, the genuiness of belief in, and search for, truth.

 

Burnedout, I knew quite a bit of your story from earlier posts but not on the level you shared here.

 

kellyb said:

 

I actually considered converting to JWism, but talked to them, and had issues with their theology, too.

 

Wow! I was raised on the idea that JWs were so slippery that if you listened to them you would almost get converted against your will. You prove otherwise.

 

Taphophilia said:

 

In the process I discovered myself. Without the influence of my Christian beliefs, I had no idea who I was or what my opinoin was on issues.

 

Maybe this explains why some people are as they are. I'm thinking of a conversation I had with one of my sisters this winter. It was so obvious that her beliefs were not her own. She, herself had no beliefs, not even an existence that I could discern. Yet she considered herself to be an authority on what I should believe.

 

Kuriokaze said:

 

It was obvious from the start how much better thought out the "oppositions" position was, and now I understood why all the apologetics I had read in college seemed so empty and pointless.

 

Thanks for this insight. I've been asking myself recently why I cannot find enjoyment from reading Christian literature like I once used to. This is probably the reason.

 

Varokhar, the honesty in your post is outstanding. I think that is what I like about these stories--they are true. They are sincere. Gusdafa, your story is witness to the value of online websites like this. I have been asking myself if I am right in basing so much of my life and "wisdom" on what I learn from groups like this. But when I can go to the university library and find scholarly literature to support what I observe here and elsewhere online, esp. about fundamentalism because that is my interest right now, I think forums like this are a pretty good representative of reality.

 

Christine, about the "what if god isn't real" question. That's a question I've wrestled with much of my life. And then my younger siblings learned a song:

 

Some people say there is no God up in the heavens.....

But I believe in God and I can tell you why.

 

I had no rest till I knew every verse of that song. I wanted so much to know the composer's evidence because I so much wanted to be able to believe like I was supposed to. That song had no answers; it did not deliver on its promise. It talked about the beauty of nature and claimed that this was proof that God was real.

 

I was in my teens and knew very little or nothing about evolution, but I could not for the life of me accept that nature was proof of God's existence. It was like I had an intuitive knowing that nature proves no such thing. I may be wrong about that but there is no way to prove it. So I stand with the folks on here who say they see no evidence of God's existence.

 

Another part of that song says about atheists:

 

They mock his name and to their shame they live without him.

 

I don't think I live a shameful live. I don't think it's a shame to pursue truth till one finds something that makes sense. Nor do I see people on this forum mocking god and jesus so much as ridiculing people who believe in these entities. There's no point in mocking the name of a nonexistent entity. Of course, Christian's ideas are so different from ours that they would probably say we mock God. Life can be so seriously confusing when what one is taught does not match the real world experience, as Varokhar says.

 

I'll be watching this thread for more contributions and discussions if people wish to share. Maybe people posted while I was writing. I'm a very slow writer and have been working on this post quite some time. Did other stuff in between. Thanks again for all your contributions. I find it very educational.

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Well Ruby,

 

why did I deconvert? I guess I'm a minority case here for I felt no problem or grievance with the jebus cult when I left - which is mostly due to the fact that I always considered it a social thingie instead of a bona fide religion, along the line " 'love your neighbor' et al is a good idea even though of course jebus was a mere human, no supernatural stuff involved". I left what I now call the cult without anger, just because upon accidental contact with Asatru I felt myself "connect" to it on a (I think ;) ) supernatural level.

 

My revulsion about morontheism developed only after I stumbled over 4th-reich-style fundy cults and started to realize that the dark side of the jebus cult which I thought was long dead is in fact still alive and kicking (mostly gays, atheists et al).

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I actually read many of the Bible stories when I was very young -- Between age five and seven. To me they were never anything more than stories, because they were just too outlandish to take seriously.

 

About a year later I had an epiphany: Religion was a very good way to control large groups of people, which to me explained its presence in society.

 

Along the way I did go to Sunday School for a couple of months, but that didn't make the Bible stories any more real to me. Early in adulthood a local born-again did chat me up and attempted a conversion on me. When he tried to get me to say the Sinner's Prayer I balked. I didn't believe a word of it, and still don't.

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The virgin birth

 

Aged 5 I had a good idea that babies didn't happen that way. For making Christopher Sims cry by telling I thought it was all just a story... and backing it up that I knew taxes didn't work that way since my dad didn't have to go to where he was born for taxing, earned my a couple of hours being told to recant and a beating by the teacher. There was even talk of expulsion... Happy times...

 

That's crazy! Why didn't they just explain? I guess that tells how very unsupportable xian beliefs are.

 

However, my mother was a genius at explaining away rational objections. That is what made it seriously difficult for me. In her better moods, she would say things like, "Oh Ruby, we are mere mortals. We can't expect to understand how God does these things. We just know he does and we need to be satisfied with that." She would say this in a tone that told me if I wanted her to like me at all, I better accept her word for it. Thus, the bottom line was emotional manipulation but I trusted it was God's truth because Mom said so.

 

I guess that is what I mean by "Why didn't they just explain." My mother did explain, but not in a way that held water over the long haul when subjected to critical reason and historical fact. However, as a child I was not forced to stand up for my beliefs like that. I just don't understand the bullying you describe. You a mere child and a little one at that (five rather than, say, fifteen), and them adults. How could they hold a little kid like that accountable???

They did 'explain'... I told them it was a fairy story, since their explanation for neither the virgin birth or taxes made sense to a bright 5 year old... And for the record, if what my mother said didn't 'make sense' I'd not accept it... but I'd drop the subject since I didn't like upsetting my mum... On things 'religious' my mother was pretty much of the opinion that if it didn't make sense to me, then it was best left alone by her...

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Aside from the fact that it's a damaging cult, it's fundamentally dishonest. I would no longer subscribe to a lie.

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I've always, on some level(even as a child), doubted Christianity. The onething that really stood out for me--that no one ever mentions--is how did Adam and Eve, all by themselves, spawn the human race and all of it's genetic diversity. Did Eve have sex with Caine and Able? If that was the case then there would have been so much genetic similarity that the human race would not have gone on even a few hundred years let alone a million.

 

That aside, as I grew older, there were several other reasons. One being a young gay kid in church. Two being the reelection of the Bush administration based on a platform of impending theocracy. That was the preeminent catalyst for my deconversion. That is when i started coming here and learning how bogus the bible really was.

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For a big portion of my Christian life I believed in those verses that said that God would care for us and he knew the number of hair on our head and stuff, and I also believed in the idea that where two or three prayed in the name of Jesus, he would be there, for protection and stuff. But when experience and reality proved this to be wrong, I lost faith in those ideas and from there it just started to crumble down.

 

Who cares if God can count, and is so meticulous that he counts the hair on someones head, but then doesn't give a little hint here or there to make us avoid danger or serious problems that will change your life and your family's life for ever. To care and love someone means that you take care of them and help them and do things for them, but I realized that I was the one caring of loving my family, not a mystical invisible being somewhere.

 

I pretty much believed everything and anything I read or heard when it came to Christianity and the Bible. Hardcore to the bone.

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I pretty much believed everything and anything I read or heard when it came to Christianity and the Bible. Hardcore to the bone.

 

Is this the reason why Christians insist that we weren't real Christians? They're scared they will end up losing faith, too? I think they would be a whole lot wiser seeking truth than seeking to hold onto a religion. But yeah, I understand, fear of hell won't allow this kind of honesty.

 

LosingMyReligion said:

 

I've always, on some level(even as a child), doubted Christianity.

 

I always feel so happy to find that there were other kids who did not swallow religion whole. Sometimes I question whether I remember correctly, yet the inner tension of having to believe something that did not make sense was so strong. The painful confusion I endured because of it...it's enough to make me cry even today. It's just good to know I'm not the only one.

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Guest Tyranthraxus

The reasons I deconverted, in decreasing order of importance.

 

1) Horniness

2) Dissatisfaction with Christian life

3) Increasing cognitive dissonance

4) Intellectual honesty

 

Actually these kind of formed a progression. One proceeded from the one above it.

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