Another Hole In The Creation Story

[XtianChris]

I've come up with another hole in the "logic" of the creation story. Christianity teaches that we were created to worship God, right? Well, what was Adam and Eve's deal? Why were they looking for other things to do besides worshiping God? Didn't they know that's why they were created? Why was Adam lonely if worshiping God is all we need to feel fulfilled? Why was Eve interested in the forbidden fruit if she should have been busy worshiping?

 

BUNK! That's why!

[Kuroikaze]

yeah, or how about this. How were Adam and Eve supposed to know that disobeying God was wrong when they didn't know good from evil until they ate from the tree.

[Legion]

yeah, or how about this. How were Adam and Eve supposed to know that disobeying God was wrong when they didn't know good from evil until they ate from the tree.

You know, I've wondered about that myself Kuroikaze.

[Ramen666]

yeah, or how about this. How were Adam and Eve supposed to know that disobeying God was wrong when they didn't know good from evil until they ate from the tree.

 

Christians don't like logic, logic is not allowed. That perfectly makes sense how do they know what they are doing is wrong?

 

I personally like the snake figure in this little tale becaue who really lied to Adam and Eve? God said they would die, the snake said they would not die. However they did not die when they ate the fruit, so therefore God even lied to them.

 

Now another hole in the Creation argument:

 

God is all powerful, he knows things before they happen, why didn't he destroy the snake, stop Eve, or even for that matter why did he create the tree in the first place. Also another question, how did God actually talk to them or anyone in the Bible for that matter. His figure sounds like someone you can talk back and forth to but no one has been able to do that for 2000 years, (they think they can but thats shit)? Is he a giant head in the sky talking to Adam and Eve?

 

Why curse all humanity for someone elses sin? Why do I need to be blamed for a mistake that happend 2000 years ago? Why is God a fucking idiot and wants love but preaches hate? All these questions and yet this make a Christian become vary uneasy?

 

POST 666......woot I am feeling lucky today. LOL

[Grandpa Harley]

Shades of Little Gidding

 

"If you came this way,

Taking any route, starting from anywhere,

At any time or at any season,

It would always be the same: you would have to put off

Sense and notion. You are not here to verify,

Instruct yourself, or inform curiosity

Or carry report. You are here to kneel

Where prayer has been valid. And prayer is more

Than an order of words, the conscious occupation

Of the praying mind, or the sound of the voice praying."

[Grandpa Harley]

yeah, or how about this. How were Adam and Eve supposed to know that disobeying God was wrong when they didn't know good from evil until they ate from the tree.

 

They were suppose to just obey...

 

A Jesuit I know maintains that 'Original sin' is one of the foulest doctrines ever perpetrated... and he thinks the fall was crowd control by guilt

 

"Satan never had a fall

He really never was at all.

And if you care to look within

You'll find you never had a sin.

There never was a sin at all.

An offended God is much too small"

 

It's always slightly defeated me that he's never been excommunicated....

[Antlerman]

It's always slightly defeated me that he's never been excommunicated....

Who, God?

[Legion]

It's always slightly defeated me that he's never been excommunicated....

Who, God?

[Grandpa Harley]

My Jesuit...

[mwc]

I've come up with another hole in the "logic" of the creation story. Christianity teaches that we were created to worship God, right? Well, what was Adam and Eve's deal? Why were they looking for other things to do besides worshiping God? Didn't they know that's why they were created? Why was Adam lonely if worshiping God is all we need to feel fulfilled? Why was Eve interested in the forbidden fruit if she should have been busy worshiping?

 

BUNK! That's why!

Then it's a good thing that the reason for the "creation" of man isn't for the "worship" of any god at all but for this "...and there was no man to do work on the land." and "15 And the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to do work in it and take care of it." (Genesis 3:5, 15) Men are "created" to to be gardeners. Nothing more. Women are "created" to keep us company.

 

Oddly the Akkadian version of the story (not literally the garden story) is like this in a way:

When the gods instead of man

Did the work, bore the loads,

 

The gods' load was too great,

The work too hard, the trouble too much,

 

The great Anunnaki made the Igigi

Carry the workload sevenfold.

Anu their father was king,

The gods did all the work. Like in the first first I quoted above there was a nice garden that the gods made but no one to do the work. Later on:

Ea made his voice heard

And spoke to the gods his brothers,

 

 

Why are we blaming them?

Their work was too hard, their trouble was too much.

Every day the earth resounded.

The warning signal was loud enough, we kept hearing the noise.

There is...

Belet-ili the womb goddess is present-

 

Let her create a mortal man

So that he may bear the yoke...

So that he may bear the yoke, the work of Ellil,

Let man bear the load of the gods!

...

Belet-ili the womb goddess is present,

Let the womb goddess create offspring,

And let them bear the load of the gods!

 

 

They called up the goddess, asked

The midwife of the gods, wise Mami,

 

 

You are the womb-goddess, to be the creator of Mankind!

Create a mortal, that he may bear the yoke!

Let him bear the yoke, the work of Ellil

Let him bear the load of the gods!

 

 

Nintu made her voice heard

And spoke to the great gods,

 

 

On the first, seventh, and fifteenth of the month

I shall make a purification by washing.

Then one god should be slaughtered.

And the gods can be purified by immersion.

 

Nintu shall mix the clay

With his flesh and blood.

Then a god and a man

Will be mixed together in clay.

 

Let us hear the drumbeat forever after,

Let a ghost come into existence from the god's flesh,

Let her proclaim it as her living sign,

And let the ghost exist so as not to forget the slain god.

 

 

They answered "yes" in the assembly,

The great Anunnaki who assign the fates

The gods later decide to create man in order to do all their work here on the planet.

 

There's also the creepy part about a god being killed to mix with us and all that is reminiscent of the jesus story.

 

Anyhow, the story in the bible and the one(s) that came before it show that men are created essentially as labor to free up the gods so they can do "god stuff." Worship comes later once kings demand it for themselves (then of course "god" wants it too).

 

mwc

[Grandpa Harley]

"There's also the creepy part about a god being killed to mix with us and all that is reminiscent of the jesus story."

 

That gets reflected into some Gnostic thought where the 'Real' God and Goddess got fooled into entering the cration that the idiot God Yahweh created, and then he trapped them there...

 

The concept of the creator God sudering himself (itself) into creation appears originally in the Dream of Brahma creation story...

[Mongo]

I've come up with another hole in the "logic" of the creation story. Christianity teaches that we were created to worship God, right? Well, what was Adam and Eve's deal? Why were they looking for other things to do besides worshiping God? Didn't they know that's why they were created? Why was Adam lonely if worshiping God is all we need to feel fulfilled? Why was Eve interested in the forbidden fruit if she should have been busy worshiping?

 

BUNK! That's why!

 

CJ

 

I think you've raised a point that we can easily overlook. Thanks. I find it a fresh take on the creation story.

 

I hope others join in on discussing this as I think this idea can be drawn out in the if/then analysis.

 

For example, if god created A&E to worship him then why did he give them the commission to go and subdue the beasts and animals? Isn't that like telling your kids to clean the house and then when you get home, reem them out for not doing their homework?

 

If god expected them to spend their time obeying and worshiping then why did he give them children to look after? Yes I know...the children came after the fall but children were part of the package or WERE they? Maybe sex is the *result* of the fall?

 

Interesting though... god said that child birth would be painful rather than say, I'll stop creating men/women and I'll make **you** create them through sex and painful childbirth. It kind of supposes that childbirth already existed. How was it that it was not painful prior to the fall? Was there no pain in the garden or was A&E mentally flawless and never stubbed their toes?

 

So if they were perfect mentally then they were mentally equal to god. If they were not equal to god, then they were mentally flawed and made mistakes. How do perfect creatures make mistakes?

 

Maybe mistakes are not the same as sins? So god **commands** them to not eat the forbidden fruit. Now they have some information that they can use to not make the mistake of eating from the tree. OK but A&E do not have god like intellegence so they apply flawed reasoning and eat the fruit.

 

Prior to the fall, how do A&E know the difference between a sin and a mistake? They don't!

 

OK so god spends time with them (the frequency is not clear) and god expects them to **trust** god. How do they know they can trust god? They no more know that they can trust god than they know that eating the forbidden fruit is a sin.

 

So Satan comes along and provides them information - knowledge.

 

Satan says they will understand good and evil if they eat from the tree. Not a bad deal quite frankly. Think about it. God wants them to be dumb and do what he says. Satan says, all the confusion about why you should listen to and trust god will go away once you eat from the tree.

 

Oddly... isn't talking to the serpant a sin in itself? By talking to the serpant, they were gaining knowledge of good and evil. Funny how this was not the actual point of the fall where their eyes were opened.

 

So A&E take a bite and develop an appetite for knowledge and realize that sex is evil.

 

So sometime later on God comes around and discovers that they have disobeyed him.

 

Why didn't god know immediately and appear magically in front of them and begin his retribution right away? He didn't but instead, wandered around the garden like a lost boy calling for them.

 

As soon as he sees them, he scolds them and says they will die for doing something they didn't understand with their flawed intellegence.

 

BTW - I've always understood this to mean that prior to the fall, A&E would live forever and that after the fall they would die - which they eventually did.

 

This brings us to the other question of suspending laws of nature. Death is part of the cycle of life. Unless the universe operated through different laws of physics before the fall, they would surely have died.

 

This is like the rainbow. Either the laws of nature were different before the flood or there always were always rainbows which contradicts the flood story.

 

Anyway... god kicks them out of the garden which begs the question, if the garden actually existed, why did god let it deterriorate. Xtians assume that it no longer exists. Funny, xtians search for the Ark but not the garden.

 

So why didn't the scripture say that god let the garden deteriorate rather than kick them out? Why doesn't it say that god put weeds and common trees/animals where the garden used to be? God actually preserves his garden and kicks them out. So where is it now?

 

Thanks for the great question CJ.

 

Mongo

[Lycorth]

The idea that any god created humans strictly for the purposes of worshipping it is illogical anyway, especially in the case of an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving god like the Xians posit.

 

Okay, maybe gods that need worship to help sustain their lives and power may not know any better alternative and therefore create humans to help hook themselves up, but a god who has the attritubutes of the Xian god wouldn't need to do that. It would know how to hook itself up, have too much love in its heart to create beings for basically slave-like purposes, and would have the power to accomplish its goals in an efficient manner.

 

As usual, the nature of the Xian god proves it cannot exist.

[mwc]

Anyway... god kicks them out of the garden which begs the question, if the garden actually existed, why did god let it deterriorate. Xtians assume that it no longer exists. Funny, xtians search for the Ark but not the garden.

 

So why didn't the scripture say that god let the garden deteriorate rather than kick them out? Why doesn't it say that god put weeds and common trees/animals where the garden used to be? God actually preserves his garden and kicks them out. So where is it now?

Your answer is in your own question. The flood obliterated the garden. Washed it clean away. Why look for it?

 

Prior to that event the angels/sword kept everyone from getting back into the garden.

 

I would think better questions in this line of thinking would be why was the garden limited in size? Why did the area "outside" have weeds and was generally unfertile? This is the equivalent of manufacturing hell prior to creation is it not? A "good" place and a "bad" place for no apparent reason? Why isn't every place equally good? God looked upon this creation and said it was good so the small garden surrounding by wilderness and desolation was "good" in his eyes. The early humans would have surely noticed this other area at some point unless they were prisoners in the garden. To me an entire garden planet would be "good" but that's just me.

 

mwc

[Grandpa Harley]

I wonder if the floods got the angel with the sword

 

 

[mwc]

I wonder if the floods got the angel with the sword

Why not? Why would YHWH give a shit? About the angels that is. He took the sword back...he needs that to smite everyone later on (you know his mantra "I'll kill 'em all and let me sort 'em out").

 

mwc

[NotBlinded]

Shades of Little Gidding

 

"If you came this way,

Taking any route, starting from anywhere,

At any time or at any season,

It would always be the same: you would have to put off

Sense and notion. You are not here to verify,

Instruct yourself, or inform curiosity

Or carry report. You are here to kneel

Where prayer has been valid. And prayer is more

Than an order of words, the conscious occupation

Of the praying mind, or the sound of the voice praying."

That sounds like the Christian verson of Heaven! Give me hell please. Naked and wrestling bodies!

 

I could go deeper into that and say that prayer is a focusing of one's own energy, but it's not as funny. (Yes, I try to be funny...it doesn't always work, but I do try!)

[Lycorth]

I could go deeper into that and say that prayer is a focusing of one's own energy, but it's not as funny. (Yes, I try to be funny...it doesn't always work, but I do try!)

 

Heh - well, if prayer has any efficacy, it's probably because of that. That's basically what magic is, ritually building up and directing one's energy/willpower to cause a change. If prayer is ever effective, that's probably why - it's just another form of magic.

 

But try telling Xians that

[Grandpa Harley]

Shades of Little Gidding

 

"If you came this way,

Taking any route, starting from anywhere,

At any time or at any season,

It would always be the same: you would have to put off

Sense and notion. You are not here to verify,

Instruct yourself, or inform curiosity

Or carry report. You are here to kneel

Where prayer has been valid. And prayer is more

Than an order of words, the conscious occupation

Of the praying mind, or the sound of the voice praying."

That sounds like the Christian verson of Heaven! Give me hell please. Naked and wrestling bodies!

 

I could go deeper into that and say that prayer is a focusing of one's own energy, but it's not as funny. (Yes, I try to be funny...it doesn't always work, but I do try!)

 

Strange to say it also contains something of a mantra of mine...

 

We shall not cease from exploration

And the end of all our exploring

Will be to arrive where we started

And know the place for the first time.

[LosingMyReligion]

My big question is still...

 

How did TWO people spawn the entire human race?

 

Did Eve have sex with Caine and Abel?

 

I have been asking that since I was a kid in Sunday school and no one has ever answered the question.

[NotBlinded]

My big question is still...

 

How did TWO people spawn the entire human race?

 

Did Eve have sex with Caine and Abel?

 

I have been asking that since I was a kid in Sunday school and no one has ever answered the question.

The creation story only applied to the Hebrews. There were other people, but not of their god.

 

Some would now tell us today that the people that were already here were of Satan.

[Grandpa Harley]

Did Eve have sex with Caine and Abel?

 

A sordid 3 way with Adam, no less...