Heads God Wins, Tails God Wins

[Guest fjell_strom]

To the rescue of every Christian apologist wrapped up in a theological dogfight eventually comes elasticity. The elasticity of True Christianity. This, out of all the things which bothers me about going head to head with Christians, bothers me the most. That, and the fact that they almost categorically don't see it.

 

Truly, in many an argument, things often wind up boiling down to a heads God wins, tails God wins scenario when a Christian engages in illustrating how point W absolutely PROVES God's existence or the divinity of Christianity.

 

I just wondered if anyone else had some gems to share in this regard. I suppose a very typical case would be:

 

When some fellow gets in a car wreck and nearly dies - let's say he lies in something of a coma state for a week with Christian friends and family praying for his recovery. Finally he wakes up and proceeds to make a full recovery. The Christian's all of course point to the power of prayer for bringing about the result.

 

There is nothing said about how God's omnipotence could have saved him from the accident.

 

Or, had he died, it would simply have been chalked up to the mysterious nature of God and when our number's up - he just calls us home.

 

It's these God-can't-lose scenarios which truly, truly get under my skin like nothing else. Anyone have some other better, more annoying examples?

 

fjell

[Garnet]

Rev. Jerry Falwell is currently in the hospital in grave condition.

 

Shall we pray?

 

If Rev. Falwell recovers, it will be due to the prayers of the faithful and the good Lord above.

 

If Rev. Falwell dies, it will be because God has another plan for the right reverend.

 

Heads you win, tails you win.

[BlueGiant]

...

If Rev. Falwell recovers, it will be due to the prayers of the faithful and the good Lord above.

 

If Rev. Falwell dies, it will be because God has another plan for the right reverend.

...

 

 

Guess plan B just won...so much for ask and it shall be given for all those that just prayed for his continued life.

[Mike D]

When some fellow gets in a car wreck and nearly dies - let's say he lies in something of a coma state for a week with Christian friends and family praying for his recovery. Finally he wakes up and proceeds to make a full recovery. The Christian's all of course point to the power of prayer for bringing about the result.

 

There is nothing said about how God's omnipotence could have saved him from the accident.

 

Or, had he died, it would simply have been chalked up to the mysterious nature of God and when our number's up - he just calls us home.

 

It's these God-can't-lose scenarios which truly, truly get under my skin like nothing else. Anyone have some other better, more annoying examples?

I don't think this is always the case. For example a child is kidnapped, and the police fear it is at the hands of a predator. The parents and entire community pray and pray and pray for the safe return of the child unharmed. They pray for two weeks, which is agonizing for the parents. Finally, the child is found dead, tossed in a dumpster in a hefty bag like so much trash. And it's clear the child was raped and tortured for many days before being murdered. In this case I don't think anyone would dare say "god called the child home", it would be too callous. And although nobody might say it aloud, I am sure many people in the back of their minds are secretly appalled that god would allow something like this to happen..... it's one thing for god to call an adult home through natural causes or accident. But it's quite another for god to "call home" a defenseless child via rape, torture and being completely brutalized for days and days before it finally comes to an end. In fact I think it's circumstances like these that probably create some new atheists, especially the parents.

[Guest fjell_strom]

I don't think this is always the case. For example a child is kidnapped, and the police fear it is at the hands of a predator. The parents and entire community pray and pray and pray for the safe return of the child unharmed. They pray for two weeks, which is agonizing for the parents. Finally, the child is found dead, tossed in a dumpster in a hefty bag like so much trash. And it's clear the child was raped and tortured for many days before being murdered. In this case I don't think anyone would dare say "god called the child home", it would be too callous. And although nobody might say it aloud, I am sure many people in the back of their minds are secretly appalled that god would allow something like this to happen..... it's one thing for god to call an adult home through natural causes or accident. But it's quite another for god to "call home" a defenseless child via rape, torture and being completely brutalized for days and days before it finally comes to an end. In fact I think it's circumstances like these that probably create some new atheists, especially the parents.

 

Ah, but you see, here's the elasticity kicking in. In the new scenario, of course, to the Christian, the new side of the heads God wins, tails God wins coin is: naturally God could not deny the rapist his/her free will.

 

So...child dies = God exists. And...child lives obviously = God exists, coupled with: He answers prayer.

[Mike D]

Ah, but you see, here's the elasticity kicking in. In the new scenario, of course, to the Christian, the new side of the heads God wins, tails God wins coin is: naturally God could not deny the rapist his/her free will.

 

So...child dies = God exists. And...child lives obviously = God exists, coupled with: He answers prayer.

Maybe I just don't understand what you mean when you say "god wins". By this do you mean "god exists"? I guess I don't see how a dead child is proof that god exists.

 

Either way, the Bible specifically states that if two or more pray in Jesus name than it will be done. If an entire community is praying to Jesus that a child is returned unharmed and it isn't, then either the Bible makes false claims (obviously) or god doesn't exist - that seems pretty obvious as well, for more reasons than just this.

[D Laurier]

"I don't think this is always the case. For example a child is kidnapped, and the police fear it is at the hands of a predator. The parents and entire community pray and pray and pray for the safe return of the child unharmed. They pray for two weeks, which is agonizing for the parents. Finally, the child is found dead, tossed in a dumpster in a hefty bag like so much trash. And it's clear the child was raped and tortured for many days before being murdered. In this case I don't think anyone would dare say "god called the child home", it would be too callous. And although nobody might say it aloud, I am sure many people in the back of their minds are secretly appalled that god would allow something like this to happen..... it's one thing for god to call an adult home through natural causes or accident. But it's quite another for god to "call home" a defenseless child via rape, torture and being completely brutalized for days and days before it finally comes to an end. In fact I think it's circumstances like these that probably create some new atheists, especially the parents."

 

You would be in for a surprise then.

Not only do fundies say things like that, But some will even tell the grieving parents that their child is in hell for having gay sex.

Fundies are nasty and vile people who say the most hatefull and evil things.

[Mike D]

You would be in for a surprise then.

Not only do fundies say things like that, But some will even tell the grieving parents that their child is in hell for having gay sex.

Fundies are nasty and vile people who say the most hatefull and evil things.

I suppose I could see someone like Fred Phelps saying something like that, but your average run of the mill Christian? I know some of them aren't very bright, but to say something like this to the parents of a dead child doesn't even seem human. It's sick, really.

[dr_funkenstein]

You would be in for a surprise then.

Not only do fundies say things like that, But some will even tell the grieving parents that their child is in hell for having gay sex.

Fundies are nasty and vile people who say the most hatefull and evil things.

I suppose I could see someone like Fred Phelps saying something like that, but your average run of the mill Christian? I know some of them aren't very bright, but to say something like this to the parents of a dead child doesn't even seem human. It's sick, really.

 

I'm sure there are some who wouldn't necessarily say it, but would be thinking that the child had gone to hell. Fundies are often sticklers for the rules - so if the rules say that sodomy is a sin, and the child has partaken in sodomy then they have sin on their heart. Without the opportunity to repent of that sin, god has no option but to judge them accordingly and send them to hell.

 

Makes you just want to smack your palms on their temples and go "THINK! It ain't illegal yet!"

[white_raven23]

You would be in for a surprise then.

Not only do fundies say things like that, But some will even tell the grieving parents that their child is in hell for having gay sex.

Fundies are nasty and vile people who say the most hatefull and evil things.

I suppose I could see someone like Fred Phelps saying something like that, but your average run of the mill Christian? I know some of them aren't very bright, but to say something like this to the parents of a dead child doesn't even seem human. It's sick, really.

 

 

Oh come now....in the above scenario, christians actually try to twist reality. And the bereaved survivors cling to the untruth to spare the pain of the reality. Happens all the time. For example....in TRUTH said raped child suffered horribly and painfully for hours before being killed. The christians simply "rewrite" reality for themselves. They mentally erase those hours of trauma. They say: "That man must have killed that child, then did everything else after he/she was safely dead. The medical examiner can't be that exact about time of death." (remember how much these people trust science after all)

 

Think they wouldn't do that? Are you kidding? They block out all the evidence of millions of years of evolution in favor for two naked twits in a garden!

[Purple]

You would be in for a surprise then.

Not only do fundies say things like that, But some will even tell the grieving parents that their child is in hell for having gay sex.

Fundies are nasty and vile people who say the most hatefull and evil things.

I suppose I could see someone like Fred Phelps saying something like that, but your average run of the mill Christian? I know some of them aren't very bright, but to say something like this to the parents of a dead child doesn't even seem human. It's sick, really.

 

 

Oh come now....in the above scenario, christians actually try to twist reality. And the bereaved survivors cling to the untruth to spare the pain of the reality. Happens all the time. For example....in TRUTH said raped child suffered horribly and painfully for hours before being killed. The christians simply "rewrite" reality for themselves. They mentally erase those hours of trauma. They say: "That man must have killed that child, then did everything else after he/she was safely dead. The medical examiner can't be that exact about time of death." (remember how much these people trust science after all)

 

Think they wouldn't do that? Are you kidding? They block out all the evidence of millions of years of evolution in favor for two naked twits in a garden!

 

 

The other twist in the case of the child, an accidental or natural death is... "God spared them further pain in his mercy and the child is now safely home with the lord." An accident? well, isn't it better to be home with the lord than to be here suffering the recovery from all the injuries? And yes, in all cases the fact the this all powerful god could have just stopped these things from happened to begin with is not brought up.

[Guest fjell_strom]

Maybe I just don't understand what you mean when you say "god wins". By this do you mean "god exists"? I guess I don't see how a dead child is proof that god exists.

 

In this case, yes - and I'm sorry for not making that clear, really, in the first place - yes, in this case "God Wins" simply means God exists or really, "the God idea works". It is really saying "this on-the-surface-of-it troubling scenario does not disprove the validity of my concept of God". And this elasticity of the concept of God - where he or it can be shown to "work" regardless of the outcome of a myriad of real-world scenarios or even theoretical scenarios (even when, scattered amongst those outcomes one finds some which are polar opposites of each other [and God works in both!]) - is what really gets under my skin.

 

My initial example of the car wreck was simply the first such scenario I could think of.

 

As per the rapist/killer picture: As you all know there are a million God by-laws about which a person may or may not be aware! Perhaps it is not until children acquire a certain age that God holds them responsible for any action, thusly allowing the child to circumvent the gay-laws which would otherwise have ruined him and so he still indeed gets to slide into heaven on these grounds. You know, it really doesn't matter. There are almost so many by-laws that - as regards the spontaneous arrival of unexpected real-world scenarios - you can almost paste an arsenal of God loopholes together until you arrive at whatever God picture you need.