bluewizard Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 I am an atheist now. But I have felt unusually spritiual at an xtian church before. Like the preacher would say the holy spirit is warming your heart, my heart felt weird. Is it all just a mental mind game they play? The church also believes God calls people to be a preacher. It is fucked up. They say God will make you feel lost and then you will be saved and that is the only way. Very fucked up beliefs. But was all this a mental mind game, chemical imbalance, or gasp..a higher power? I don't believe in God or xtianity but if I get this problem solved I will never ever became an xtian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 I definitely believe the mind can play extreme tricks on us. Just take split personality, or people hearing voices or having visions. Or when people have brain cancer and they remove the connection between left and right brain, weird things happens. Or Phantom pain in amputated legs. All this is totally real to them. Did you see "A beautiful mind"? That story is not made up, except they added some stuff, for instance the guy didn't see anyone, he only heard "people" and he had dillusions. I remember when that dude got his Nobel price. He was in news papers back in 89 or whenever it was. It's very likely that we can do Self induced dillusions and hypnosis. We can also go into temporary autistic mode, when you exercise and get your heart rate up above 140 (IIRC), or if you're in a stress/shock situation with an adrenaline kick to it. The mind is mysterious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtdude Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Hi bluewizard, I think that we are terribly open to all sorts of suggestion. When I was in the church, when it was all quiet and the organ playing softly, it was calming. Preachers are masters at manipulation. Also, the role of pheromones and behavior has not been completely understood; when you get a room full of people getting all excited and sweating, there is an emotional response. After leaving christianity, I found I could self induce these calming emotions through hypnosis. And the excitement of a crowd, well have you ever been to the Final Four in basketball? Take it easy. Curtdude San Francisco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 But was all this a mental mind game, chemical imbalance, or gasp..a higher power? I don't believe in God or xtianity but if I get this problem solved I will never ever became an xtian. I believe what you are describing is called altered states of consciousness. http://skepdic.com/altstates.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
been borg again Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 Blue, This reminds me of a cultural phenomenon in Malayshia, I cannot remember the offical term for it, where these factory workers exsperience mass hysteria. One fctory worker ( female) will start weeping, wailing, and makeing animal sounds, then before you know it, the entire factory is doing it. And then the factory will bring in witch doctors to cure the problem. The interesting thing about this phenomenon is the Malaysian Culture is really big into the "saving face" mentality. That is, its dishonorable to show alot of emotion, but when they go into this animal spirit possession thing, they act crazy, just like a charasmatic church, they bark like dogs or howl like wolves.... I would post a link , except I read this in a sociology textbook. you see they beleive in animal spirit possession, so every once in a while an entire work force in some assembly line factory, all the workers will go temporarily insaine for a short amount of time. Professionals think this is a coping mechanism due to the stress in working in a factory, but either way it illustrates the human mind in situations like your church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 Professionals think this is a coping mechanism due to the stress in working in a factory, but either way it illustrates the human mind in situations like your church. If anyone did that here, they'd probably get laid off. Or at least, told to take a week off and go see a shrink. I don't see why they put up with that in Malaysia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 Oxytocin Pheromones make people trust you: "Trust in a can" http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/002810.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 I am an atheist now. But I have felt unusually spritiual at an xtian church before. Like the preacher would say the holy spirit is warming your heart, my heart felt weird. Is it all just a mental mind game they play? They actually take classes to learn how to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
been borg again Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 more info on the mass hysteria in Malaysian female factory workers. I think it illustrates nicely the power of mass hypnosis in churches. To be able to see the same phenomenon manifested in a different cultural context, then able to recognize the similarities, and the influence of cultural beliefs over the phenomenon A Book Review: Spirits of Resistance and Capitalist Discipline: Factory Women in Malaysia by Aihwa Ong (reviewed by RR) The phenomenon of spirit possession afflicting Malay women workers in factories in Malaysia during the eighties has stimulated much interest among anthropologists. Aihwa Ong offers some insight through her book as a result of her fourteen-month research on these factory workers in modern Japanese electronics factories in Malaysia. She attempts to answer questions such as the relationship between work discipline and sexuality among the Malay people, and the possible symbolic meanings one could extract from these spritual possessions. After an in-depth analysis of Malayan history during the colonial and post-colonial era; the role that the traditional Malay life-style played in forming Malay culture; and the image of the working woman versus the traditional woman, Ong asserts that the underlying notion of spiritual possession is, ultimately, the resistance of rural Malays to a capitalist world that is alien to them and that calls for a disconcerting change in their social and religious belief systems. In order to understand the framework in which Ong wishes to portray the Malays, she begins her story with the rural Malay in his traditional setting. Until the twentieth century, the Malays lived as farmers whose main income was cash cropping. They were accustomed to their long-established tradition of an autonomous working life, and an easy-going attitude in life. The British colonials ensured that under their "divide-and-rule" strategy (Malays and immigrants of various races, namely, the Chinese, Indians and Javanese to the Malay Peninsula, engaged in different economic activities according to race), the Malays preserved their way of life. Thus they were 'shielded' from a controlled and regulated life that the immigrants led. Women, according to Ong, were much more attuned to this autonomy; the young ladies stayed at home, attended to chores and took care of her siblings. There was no set work schedule. Rarely were they supervised, if at all. These 'maidens' led a life that was sheltered; interaction with men who were not kin was uncommon. Ong then introduces a paradox; despite the conventional image of the demure Malay lady in the house, it became a trend for parents to send their daughters off to work in the industrial area gradually emerged; this contradicts the traditional assumption that men were the material providers of the family. Ong writes, young men were expected to pursue higher education and to return home with white-collar jobs, whereas it was common for young girls to drop out of high school and help with the family chores. It became accepted that the young men were not expected to financially contribute to the family until they had higher-paying jobs. Therefore, to make ends meet and to lighten the burden of their parents, these young, single women were under additional pressure to provide some money. With an incomplete high school education --- at most --- and few skills, these women sought work in factories. Because most of these factories were a distance away from the kampungs these young women came from, it was only practical that some of these women lived away from their parents. Ong repeatedly states that these women were under a considerable amount of pressure, from the workplace and from personal issues. Firstly, she reminds us, working under a rigid work schedule at sometimes unusual hours, and being under the close supervision of male strangers were drastic social adjustments. Secondly, those who commuted daily from work to home, returned in the evenings, exhausted, to a routine of chores. Their net spending money (after deducting contributions to the house bills and some money for their siblings who went to school) was considerably less than the initial income. The number of work hours put in did not tally with the money earned. Thirdly, and maybe most importantly, society by then had formed a negative image of these women who were seen in public at 'unearthly' hours, in their 'unlady-like jeans', wearing 'unflattering' make-up, and mixing 'freely'. From the immense pressure faced by the Malay women discussed in her book, the sometimes violent incidents of spiritual possession on the shopfloor by the hantu (Malay word for evil spirit) imply some deep conflicting beliefs. According to Ong, the emergence of evil spirits is a protest against the transition from a non-capitalist economic system to a capitalist one that is discordant with the mind-set and lifestyle of the more laid-back Malay society. Somehow, the evil spirits reflect an ambivalent society, a society of many groups and sub-groups that are at different levels of exposure to the modern industrial world. From this, Malay culture contains many contradictions because groups and classes try to interpret and to adjust their culture in relation with industrialization. After reading her book, I commend Ong for her work in this field. Being a Malay myself, I find it difficult to believe that an orang luar (meaning outsider; a term Ong uses in her book) is able to capture the essence of Malay culture. I admire her accuracy and careful choice of words in describing concept unique to our culture. However, I wish to add that, although she does not completely dispel the notion that there might be a supernatural force playing a role in this drama, the presence of supernatural powers should not be undermined. Admittedly, it was initially difficult for me to read her book as I have been brought up listening to cerita hantu (ghost stories); I had to convince myself that she was not trying to explain away spirit possession but, instead, trying to read into this phenomenon. Having lived on both extremes of the Malay social spectrum (living in the city for a while and then staying at a boarding school in rural Johor for two years), I have noticed that there is a significant difference in the population mentality. The kampung folk do tend to be more 'opposed' to 'modern' values than the city folk. Bear in mind that the Malay society in Malaysian society is an old society trying to adapt to a relatively new one (independence was achieved in 1957). We are still struggling to form an identity that agrees with our past beliefs and the present ones we experience, and have not yet found an one that we are comfortable with. We are torn between practicing fundamentalist Islam and being more 'liberal' since only half the country is Muslim; we do not yet have a secure balance between being modern and retaining our culture. I feel that it may take a decade or two to achieve some sort of balance, but I fear that the fast-paced industrial and economic world will not wait that long. It is difficult to predict what being a Malay will mean in twenty years' time but the spiritual world, with all its female vampires and were-dogs, may well still be an indispensable aspect of Malay beliefs. I can bravely say that even city folk think twice before picking up beautiful lady hitch-hikers with long hair and ivory-white complexions in middle of the night . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted June 19, 2005 Share Posted June 19, 2005 Like the preacher would say the holy spirit is warming your heart, my heart felt weird. Is it all just a mental mind game they play? Hmmm, if the holy spirit can affect us physically such as tugging at our heart, why doesn't he/she/it ever tug at our arms or legs, where we will be sure not to confuse it with other various emotional reactions? I think it is common for emotions to manifest themselves in physical ways, especially in the chest/stomach area. For example, when a person is feeling depressed, stressed, anxiety, excitment, peaceful, relaxed, etc., they may often feel different physical sensations, pretty much always in that region of the body. I think in church people feel a combination of excitement, peace and happiness, and like other emotions they create a physical sensation in the chest area, which is why people associate it with the heart. Being that these physical sensations are usually vague and non-specific, it's easy for a preacher to say it's the holy spirit tugging at their heart, and everyone just blankly nods their head in agreement. In my opinion if anyone is literally having a physical sensation in their heart, they may be experiencing atrial fibrillation and should call 911 immediately Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IvyFairy Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 I felt weird things inside while at was at church............... When I was 13 (11 years ago), my friend invited me to her Baptist Church one Sunday. The Minister was up front talking about something in the Bible. John, Paul, Luke.. I dunno.... but it had NOTHING to do with Revelations. Every time I would close my eyes, I saw weird "visions" of judgment, hell-fire, damn-nation, etc. etc. etc. Very Very Hard to explain. I started to have a panic attack and hyper-ventilate. Since then, I don't like going to church services. I was raised Semi-Christian. I was never baptized. I was dedicated to a Four-Square church when I was only a couple of days old... but that is it. My father always said I could believe anything I wanted as long as I didn’t become Mormon or Catholic. I've studied a little bit of Buddhism, Wicca, Parts of Christianity, and Parts of Mormonism (since my older brother tried to convert me one summer while on his Mission in SLC and he ALMOST succeeded… Thank Goodness he didn’t)... I've always been "Spiritual" more than anything with the ideas that I hold. Over the last 2 months I've had to question Christianity and it seems like people use it as a "Crutch". So, I'm still not a Christian - since I never technically was one, but it's hard for me to say I'm an Atheist. Does that make any sense at all? A couple months ago -- my brother-in-law told me that it sounded as tho I was a Theist, but as my husband and I read more and more I’m starting to change views to an Atheist but I’m unable to admit it to myself out loud, but I know it deep-down inside. Anywho.... That was my weird experience at church. Just thought I'd share. Sorry to bother any of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 Welcome IvyFairy, Anywho.... That was my weird experience at church. Just thought I'd share. Sorry to bother any of you. Don't feel like you bother anyone. It's good to have you here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IvyFairy Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueGiant Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 Have had the exact opposite kind of feeling at churches. I kind of "woke up" in one when I was 17 and got the kick to the head from my own mind that something was very, very wrong here. Also I get a feeling of revulsion while there, like I can feel how fake everyone is, the faithful aren't that bad, but those going through the motions and putting up appearances...I just feel this deep reviling of them, best I can put it. Maybe I'm just alergic to hypocracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonofspong Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 I used to get a creepy vibe whenever I went to church. Although most the christians I met seemed nice, I could sense this element of "fakeness" coming from thiem. It was like "im only smiling cuz god wants me to, and I wouldn't give a seconds thought to burning some heathens ass on a stake if it was legal" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perianwalsh Posted August 10, 2007 Share Posted August 10, 2007 to bluegiant:I never felt like that before i think it's chemical imbalance-although i am not sure. Try to read more about mystism.i am currently reading about brainscience.there's a brain science free audio downlaods on mit opencourseware. Good question.I have been trying to think about this too.I have tried exorcised before,and about holy spirit-yeah,my church dont have those organs stuff,but it's still effective-and it's not even pentecostal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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