Guest Conspicio Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 Howdy, I feel I need to rant, so... take cover *passes out hardhats* Anywho... Well to set up my rant I'll need to set up my living situation. At the moment I'm in a house with 4 other people that are good friends of mine. One nice young lady and her fiance' and two other males. Two of them are catholic, typical really, believe what they want and throw out the rest. I.E. Its ok to have my obnoxiously loud screaming girlfriend over and have wild noisy sex with her cause god will forgive me... Ugh. Anyways, last night at dinner we got into a peaceful discussion of religion. As per it is one of my favorite topics (I'm sick in the head...ok?) I quickly dismantled or rather... made the nice young lady think about what she was believing. The thing that hit home most was a quote by someone I cannot recall that stated "I'm just as atheist as you but I believe in one less god" ZING! That prompted a sort of retreating mechanism in which I was hit by the most blatantly stupid thing I ever heard, yet since its so illogical I cant really get a good basis to disprove it. "I think that as long as someone believes in a higher power they get to go to heaven" Conspicio is not happy. I think I'll make a new religion that says in order to get to heaven I must eat the brains of 12 year olds from Tokyo. According to that logic I'll get to go to heaven I suppose. WEEEE! Brains! If any of you could help me brainstorm up some good rebuttal's to the above statement it would be much appreciated. Thanks =P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordofGondor Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 The reason its so difficult to knock down is because it has no real foundation to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirangel Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 Awesome, so I can believe that Zeus is striking people down with lightning bolts and still get into the Christian heaven. I'm going to go start making some signs now and then go run around after a storm and say that it's because God is angry...right alongside some of the Christians. We can have an angry God party. It's like the dynamics of Pascals wager...I'll have to pick one to believe in just in case it's true, but I'm going to have to think about this a little more, choosing a God shouldn't be taken lightly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purple Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 Actaully I like your rebuttal. So basicaly if I believe in a god that demands I eat the brains of children, I stil get the get of hell free card? I mean is that the only criteria of good vs. bad, belief? SO if one was an atheist, and did much good, and loved their fellow man, they go to hell, but a person who believes god told them to rape and kill the town's prostitues is good to go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 "I think that as long as someone believes in a higher power they get to go to heaven" I believe in a "higher power"... the Universe is definitely much stronger and powerful than me, maybe I have more intelligence than the Universe, but I have a very high respect for it and for what it can do to me. So YAY! I'm going to Heaven!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lupis Noctum Posted July 1, 2007 Share Posted July 1, 2007 One of the attractions of christianity seems to be that one can feel free to make up the rules as one goes along. Pretty easy, when the instruction manual contradicts itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lerato Posted July 1, 2007 Share Posted July 1, 2007 Frankly her reply was a complete cop-out so call her on it. It seems that she is trying to conform what is a pretty strict Biblical god with this fluffy "think happy thoughts and we'll all go to heaven" mentality. I must admit that in the past I was much like her, before I began to see how difficult it is to conform a 21st century worldview with a book that's a few millenia old (and whose stories are based on myths that are even older). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhampir Posted July 1, 2007 Share Posted July 1, 2007 ...But, no religion in the world says that heaven can be accessed simply by believing in a higher power; they all say that there's some requirement, aside from believing in a god or something to get to heaven. So, if any religion is right about it, then ONE must be right, and if that's true, then you must absolutely do more than believe to get into heaven. And that means a LOT of people are going to hell whether they believe in a god or not. Yes, I know, that statement is rather easy to rebut, but I'll bet anything that person you were talking to can't do it. Not for a long while anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cracked Posted July 1, 2007 Share Posted July 1, 2007 "I think that as long as someone believes in a higher power they get to go to heaven" Let me start by saying I have let a (would be) homeless christian friend sleep on my couch for the past three years. Most of the time he is watching what I type and read on Ex-C (cause my TV screen is also my main computer monitor). Anyway he also tries to bring up such things like the above statement. Normally my response is to make that statement, he first needs to prove that a "higher power" exists. Then after proving that he must prove that a "heaven" exists. Then normally I will point at the coffee table and say "I can prove my table exists....Can you prove your god/higher power exists?" Normally he will shut up after that, but he started the "it's a spiritual thing" argument. In which case I normally say "I am an Atheist. The first word of spiritual is spirit. Now you need to prove that a spirit exists. Besides on TV have you ever seen a spirit exit a body that just died? (while pointing at mt coffee table)". So far he has not came up with a good argument for those two simple points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godlessgrrl Posted July 1, 2007 Share Posted July 1, 2007 "I think that as long as someone believes in a higher power they get to go to heaven" I'd probably respond to a question like this with something along the lines of: "Why do you think that?" I.e., what justifies their belief? What's their reasoning? Why do they think there's a heaven? Can they back that up? Why would belief in anything have anything to do with what happens to our consciousness after we die? And so on. But that's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted July 1, 2007 Share Posted July 1, 2007 I'd stop battling. I'd find out what it is about her beliefs that make her feel OK. That's all religion is - an attempt to feel OK. I'd talk to her about the fact that she is OK anyway. People can't listen to reason when they feel that their 'OKness' is under attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted July 1, 2007 Share Posted July 1, 2007 Just ask, what is so evil about disbelief in a higher power that I, as an atheist, don't get to go to heaven? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brutal Brian Posted July 1, 2007 Share Posted July 1, 2007 I think I'll make a new religion that says in order to get to heaven I must eat the brains of 12 year olds from Tokyo. According to that logic I'll get to go to heaven I suppose. WEEEE! Brains! Maybe you can get a few ideas from these guys on that note: The Church of Zombie Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirangel Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 I think I'll make a new religion that says in order to get to heaven I must eat the brains of 12 year olds from Tokyo. According to that logic I'll get to go to heaven I suppose. WEEEE! Brains! Maybe you can get a few ideas from these guys on that note: The Church of Zombie Jesus Christ Cute. The general interests are listed as: brains, brains and more brains, also sudoku. WTF...sudoku? You just can't trust people who like sudoku. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 Yeah, I've had Christians tell me that too. However they don't realize that Christianity doesn't support a Universalist belief, even if they do. They're really just Universalists taking the Christian label. I just wish they'd call themselves Universalist and not Christian, they're really being disingenous by using the wrong label. Unfortunately, a great many fundies are not tolerant of anyone who doesn't use the Christian label. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smellincoffee Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 Yeah, I've had Christians tell me that too. However they don't realize that Christianity doesn't support a Universalist belief, even if they do. They're really just Universalists taking the Christian label. I just wish they'd call themselves Universalist and not Christian, they're really being disingenous by using the wrong label. Unfortunately, a great many fundies are not tolerant of anyone who doesn't use the Christian label. That's not Universalism, that's just silly; the idea that believing in something, anything, is arbitrarily the way into Heaven. Most Universalists I've spoken with don't even really believe in the idea of Heaven; but those are Unitarian Universalists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pantonality Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 It seems to me this line of thinking is very much in line with Pauline Christianity, if you believe in Jesus (higher power) you can get into heaven. It's the lowest priced heaven available. However, why the need to put others on the defensive? The Xians want to save you eternal soul, thus they win converts by seeming to be caring. Rather than being gloating about dismantling their belief system, you might find more success by being gentle and caring about it. One example might besuggesting that you're the type of person who needs something real to substantiate your investment in a spiritual belief system. You've studied the Bible and how it was put tgether and find nothing outside the Xian record that substantiates any of it. My point is that when you share what your experience people will listen. That's why the testimonials are so powerful. Sharing what you think is what leads to debates, because people can argue with what you think. They can't argue with your experience and what you believe. You may not respect Xianity, but when you show caring rather than trying to score debate points you're more likely to succeed in changing minds and hearts. I've done sales for 30 years and as a salesperson the LAST thing you want to do is get in an argument. A good sales person listens and seeks to understand the better to address a prospect's real concerns (before they even ask). My point is that you won't win hearts and minds by demonstrating your superiority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirangel Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 You may not respect Xianity, but when you show caring rather than trying to score debate points you're more likely to succeed in changing minds and hearts. I've done sales for 30 years and as a salesperson the LAST thing you want to do is get in an argument. A good sales person listens and seeks to understand the better to address a prospect's real concerns (before they even ask). My point is that you won't win hearts and minds by demonstrating your superiority. Good advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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