R. S. Martin Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 I found the article via another forum that I seldom visit, so it's not exactly new anymore. It was in LA Times, June 18, 2007. Here is the title, subtitle, and byline: New ground in debate on 'curing' gays Christian ministries who see homosexuality as a treatable disorder are starting to think that choice may not be a factor. By Stephanie Simon, Times Staff Writer June 18, 2007 There are two things I'd like to get out of this. First, I'd like to know if anyone closely connected with the gay community has noticed any changes. The second may be more difficult. I guess one thing that has hit me rather hard is when people on here declare that it is totally impossible for a homosexual to also be a Christian. It does not seem rational. Why? Because we know that major Christian doctrines are based on nothing more than bits and pieces of verses scattered throughout the bible. We also know that there is not a single doctrine that is accepted across Christianity by all congregations in all denominations. Some deeply devout Christians reject Christmas. Why would it be any different for the doctrine that homosexuality is wrong? In this article we have some mental health professionals, who are also conservative Christians, beginning to say that sexual orientation may be present at birth. There are perhaps two or three pieces of verses in the bible that say homosexuality is wrong. Compare that with entire chapters that support the celebration of Christmas. The biggest bias against homosexuality seems to come from outside the bible, same as do most Christian practices. The practices exist, so they find bible verses to legitimate the practices. The celebration of Christmas is one such example. If it is possible to be Christian and reject Christmas, might it not also be possible to be Christian and accept homosexuality? I can see that this may be a hard pill to swallow for those members here who gave up religion for the ability to live with themselves. I am so happy for those of you who have been able to do that. BUT does that justify the statement that it is totally impossible for a homosexual person to also be a Christian? Since religion is between the individual and the god he believes in, who am I or who are you to judge that a certain person is not a Christian? One thing is certain--those people go by a different criteria for Christian than some of us might. But that is just the way it works. Most people on here claim that at one time they were strict fundamentalist Christians. HOWEVER, according to the Christian teachings I was raised with, they were very worldly and not worthy the name of Christian. If Christians cannot agree among themselves who qualifies to be called a Christian, who are we atheists, agnostics, Pagans, you-name-it, to decide who qualifies? Maybe I am setting my hopes too high but I am hoping for a thoughtful discussion of the article above. Go to the link and read the entire article before you comment. That is my desire. Maybe no one wants to go to all that work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandora Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 Even when I was a fairly conservative Christian, I thought it was possible for a homosexual to be a true, saved Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted July 7, 2007 Author Share Posted July 7, 2007 Thanks for your comment, Pandora. Did you also think it was okay for them to practice homosexuality? I hear that some conservative Christians say its the acts that are wrong, not the orientation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mankey Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 I guess one thing that has hit me rather hard is when people on here declare that it is totally impossible for a homosexual to also be a Christian. It does not seem rational. Why? Because we know that major Christian doctrines are based on nothing more than bits and pieces of verses scattered throughout the bible. We also know that there is not a single doctrine that is accepted across Christianity by all congregations in all denominations. Some deeply devout Christians reject Christmas. Why would it be any different for the doctrine that homosexuality is wrong? There is nothing in scripture to support Christmas. There is scripture that even warns about idolatry. Jeremiah 10 is a very good example. The fact that most Christians ignore scripture in regards Christmas is not an argument for ignoring other parts of scripture. Two wrongs do not make a right. In this article we have some mental health professionals, who are also conservative Christians, beginning to say that sexual orientation may be present at birth. There are perhaps two or three pieces of verses in the bible that say homosexuality is wrong. Compare that with entire chapters that support the celebration of Christmas. The biggest bias against homosexuality seems to come from outside the bible, same as do most Christian practices. The practices exist, so they find bible verses to legitimate the practices. The celebration of Christmas is one such example. Chapters in the bible that supports the celebration of Christmas? I'd like to see that. Also, only one verse saying homosexuality is a sin is enough. Its Gods word after all. As far as I am concerned, given that all sins are equal before God, it is bigotry to focus on homosexuality. Where did the bible writers get the idea that homosexuality pisses God off before they wrote it in? I have to wonder this fear ever came from? If it is possible to be Christian and reject Christmas, might it not also be possible to be Christian and accept homosexuality? I can see that this may be a hard pill to swallow for those members here who gave up religion for the ability to live with themselves. I am so happy for those of you who have been able to do that. BUT does that justify the statement that it is totally impossible for a homosexual person to also be a Christian? There is no supporting scripture for Christmas. Dec 25 is a pagan holiday. The Christmas tree is idolatry. Santa is not in the bible. Even if scripture said that all Christians MUST celebrate Christmas, that would not in any way erase scripture that condemns homosexuality. All that is being shown is that Christians are ignoring the bible. Not to mention the fact that Jesus says the the law is still in effect. So long as the bible is considered the cornerstone of Christianity, Gods word, Christians must try not to commit the sins that are given in scripture. To say that a practicing homosexual is a Christian makes as much sense as saying that a practicing polytheist can be a Christian. It just doesn't work. Since religion is between the individual and the god he believes in, who am I or who are you to judge that a certain person is not a Christian? There is no such thing as a Christian if the bible, which has contradictions in regards salvation, is considered Gods word. Some Christians say that there is no such thing as atheists. Really there is no such thing as a Christian. Seriously. One thing is certain--those people go by a different criteria for Christian than some of us might. But that is just the way it works. Most people on here claim that at one time they were strict fundamentalist Christians. HOWEVER, according to the Christian teachings I was raised with, they were very worldly and not worthy the name of Christian. That is the nature of Christianity. Welcome to the hell whole of Christendum. The New Testament even warns of false prophets. Too bad its impossible to be a Christian to begin with. And yes. I consider many conservative Christians, my background, to be worldy hypocrites. If Christians cannot agree among themselves who qualifies to be called a Christian, who are we atheists, agnostics, Pagans, you-name-it, to decide who qualifies? A Christian is one who follows the teachings of Christ and believes that Christ is Lord and Savior. Christ's teachings are in the bible. Anyone can read. That means anyone can judge based on what the bible says. I hold that there is no such thing as a Christian because it is impossible to follow all of the teachings of Jesus due to contradictions in how we can be saved. Maybe I am setting my hopes too high but I am hoping for a thoughtful discussion of the article above. Go to the link and read the entire article before you comment. That is my desire. Maybe no one wants to go to all that work. I read the article and it is all bickering over non-issues thanks to religious bigotry. It should never have been an issue anywhere. Ever. This article only re-affirms my fear of superstition. Even though things are getting better I will not forget that superstition stuck its ignorant nose where it does not belong. I do not really want anyone to be infected with the mind rot of the Christian faith. I hold that not only homosexuals can not be Christians, but NO ONE can. Its impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandora Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 Thanks for your comment, Pandora. Did you also think it was okay for them to practice homosexuality? I hear that some conservative Christians say its the acts that are wrong, not the orientation. Well, I do remember crying and praying nonstop for my 35 year old gay cousin when I was 13/14... but it was truly out of compassion. I was truly obsessed... it broke my heart. Early on, I did think the act was wrong. As I matured, by the end of high school, I was convinced God didn't care as long as there was a real relationship there. The person's relationship with God was what mattered... and we all sin. Now, of course, I'm all about the casual sex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted July 7, 2007 Author Share Posted July 7, 2007 Well, I do remember crying and praying nonstop for my 35 year old gay cousin when I was 13/14... but it was truly out of compassion. I was truly obsessed... it broke my heart. Early on, I did think the act was wrong. As I matured, by the end of high school, I was convinced God didn't care as long as there was a real relationship there. The person's relationship with God was what mattered... and we all sin. Now, of course, I'm all about the casual sex. I like this. I didn't know any Christians felt this way. It's good to know some do. Thanks. Mankey, I saw your post. Thanks for the effort, but you seem to miss the point of the OP. More accurately, you seem to discount the point as being legitimate. Mostly you sound like a fundy staking out your terf. Each to his/her own. My point is that fundamentalist religion exists as a very potent world power. People are getting hurt and even killed because of its beliefs that homosexuality is wrong. From the OP: In this article we have some mental health professionals, who are also conservative Christians, beginning to say that sexual orientation may be present at birth. Given the context of powerful fundamentalist religion, this statement is a ray of hope in an otherwise hopeless situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted July 7, 2007 Author Share Posted July 7, 2007 Mankey, when I say the Bible supports Christmas I mean that there are major passages in the NT that describe the events around Jesus' birth. You sound like the kind of person who believed Christmas is wrong. Fine. I acknowledged this in my OP. If you look up threads from December, you can see many exC arguments against Christmas. They are somewhat out of season here in the middle of July. I used it only as an example that I believed exChristians might identify with. Perhaps a brief clarification is in line for the benefit of this thread. I did not define what constitutes celebration of Christmas. You seem to think only Santa Claus and Christmas tree constitute the celebration of Christmas. Where I come from, Christmas was celebrated but not with Santa Claus and Christmas trees. It was celebrated with: 1. A Christmas program at school put on by the school children with readings, singing, and recitals that reflected the biblical perspective of Jesus' birth, love, peace on earth, giving to the needy, etc. 2. Special church service on the morning of Christmas Day. No fancy instrumental music and performances. Just the reading of the Christmas story out of Matthew or Luke, a sermon on it, and two Christmas hymns. 3. Family get-togethers, feasting, maybe low-key gift-giving and card-sending in some families. 4. Christmas holidays (approximately from Dec. 24-Jan. 2) for school children and teachers. Part and parcel of these celebrations were the warnings against worldly decorations and esp. Santa Claus and Christmas trees. If there was a biblical sin in all of this, I think it was in the over-eating and pictures of the Nativity Scene on cards and the school's blackboard and in the children's art that was on the bulletin board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mankey Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 RubySera: Mankey, when I say the Bible supports Christmas I mean that there are major passages in the NT that describe the events around Jesus' birth. You sound like the kind of person who believed Christmas is wrong. Fine. I acknowledged this in my OP.I did not define what constitutes celebration of Christmas. You seem to think only Santa Claus and Christmas tree constitute the celebration of Christmas. Where I come from, Christmas was celebrated but not with Santa Claus and Christmas trees. It was celebrated with: When was Jesus born? Was he born in the wintertime? Still, I just do not not recall anything in scripture specifically saying that you can not observe winter solstice. And no, all of my family and relatives celebrated Christmas. I just thought that I had an airtight case against it. I am not so sure now. There is nothing in scripture that says we must celebrate it... RubySera: 1. A Christmas program at school put on by the school children with readings, singing, and recitals that reflected the biblical perspective of Jesus' birth, love, peace on earth, giving to the needy, etc. 2. Special church service on the morning of Christmas Day. No fancy instrumental music and performances. Just the reading of the Christmas story out of Matthew or Luke, a sermon on it, and two Christmas hymns. 3. Family get-togethers, feasting, maybe low-key gift-giving and card-sending in some families. 4. Christmas holidays (approximately from Dec. 24-Jan. 2) for school children and teachers. Part and parcel of these celebrations were the warnings against worldly decorations and esp. Santa Claus and Christmas trees. Sounds like you enjoyed a Christmas that you could really believe in. I really do not see many Christians, some, but not many giving to the needy over here where I am at. RubySera: If there was a biblical sin in all of this, I think it was in the over-eating and pictures of the Nativity Scene on cards and the school's blackboard and in the children's art that was on the bulletin board. Hehe. Out west we have Evangelical Quakers scattered about here and there. Like your kin, they are very Jesus-centric. I forgot about them. There is a difference between neo-con conservatives and your Christians. I do not approve of Christianity, but I respect your Christians, just like I have respect for the Friends out here. I have no respect for the political neo-cons. RubySera: I guess one thing that has hit me rather hard is when people on here declare that it is totally impossible for a homosexual to also be a Christian. It does not seem rational... Some deeply devout Christians reject Christmas. Why would it be any different for the doctrine that homosexuality is wrong?... There are perhaps two or three pieces of verses in the bible that say homosexuality is wrong. .... If it is possible to be Christian and reject Christmas, might it not also be possible to be Christian and accept homosexuality?... BUT does that justify the statement that it is totally impossible for a homosexual person to also be a Christian?.... Pandora: Well, I do remember crying and praying nonstop for my 35 year old gay cousin when I was 13/14... but it was truly out of compassion. I was truly obsessed... it broke my heart. Early on, I did think the act was wrong. As I matured, by the end of high school, I was convinced God didn't care as long as there was a real relationship there. The person's relationship with God was what mattered... and we all sin. Mankey: Also, only one verse saying homosexuality is a sin is enough. Its Gods word after all. As far as I am concerned, given that all sins are equal before God, it is bigotry to focus on homosexuality. Where did the bible writers get the idea that homosexuality pisses God off before they wrote it in? I have to wonder this fear ever came from? Mankey: Even if scripture said that all Christians MUST celebrate Christmas, that would not in any way erase scripture that condemns homosexuality. All that is being shown is that Christians are ignoring the bible. Not to mention the fact that Jesus says the the law is still in effect. So long as the bible is considered the cornerstone of Christianity, Gods word, Christians must try not to commit the sins that are given in scripture. To say that a practicing homosexual is a Christian makes as much sense as saying that a practicing polytheist can be a Christian. It just doesn't work. What this means is that a homosexual must acknowledge that homosexuality is a sin and must try not to give in to their normal sexual desires. It means that if they want to be a Christian, which is impossible for anyone to do anyways, they must practice heterosexuality in a marriage. They must try to not have sexual relations with someone of the same gender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 Based on internal detail of the Gospel, the nativity of Jesus would have occured in the period April to September in that part of Plaestine. Other times of the year, shepherds wouldn't have been in the fields, at night, since they penned and sheltered. The whole 'born of a virgin' thing could point to the September end of the year, but that is wholly supposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mankey Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 Based on internal detail of the Gospel, the nativity of Jesus would have occured in the period April to September in that part of Plaestine. Other times of the year, shepherds wouldn't have been in the fields, at night, since they penned and sheltered. The whole 'born of a virgin' thing could point to the September end of the year, but that is wholly supposition. Thank you kindly Granpa Harley. I was being a little lazy and not researching what I wasn't sure about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 Very welcome. I remember that crap like I remember the 4 times table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mankey Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 RubySera: Mankey, I saw your post. Thanks for the effort, but you seem to miss the point of the OP. More accurately, you seem to discount the point as being legitimate. Mostly you sound like a fundy staking out your terf. Each to his/her own. If I came off as snarky, which I might have I apologize. "Mostly you sound like a fundy staking out your terf. " Hahaha! I am an anti-religion evangelist. I do not hide this fact. RubySera: My point is that fundamentalist religion exists as a very potent world power. People are getting hurt and even killed because of its beliefs that homosexuality is wrong. Indeed. RubySera: From the OP: In this article we have some mental health professionals, who are also conservative Christians, beginning to say that sexual orientation may be present at birth. Given the context of powerful fundamentalist religion, this statement is a ray of hope in an otherwise hopeless situation. Very true. However, the whole mess started from superstitious notions....beliefs. A person can make a statement that is logically fallacious and still be right. But...the person who discriminates logically is a person who will be right more often. Being right or correct is a very useful thing if one wishes to be fair to all. Or...if one wishes to get the most out of making reality work for all. Superstition just can't do this. That is my position. You wanted an opposing view and I have done my best to give you one RubySera. I apologize if it is not satisfactory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurari Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 I always thought the "Gays can't be Christian" line alluded more to the idea of "Why would they want to be part of a religion that doesn't accept them and tells them they are an abomination?" rather than they are incapable of following and fufilling Christian tenants. Kind of like with slaves and women. I don't think it matters what the Bible says anyway. There are an alarming number of Christians that don't ever bother to read the book at all. It's just a symbol of faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mankey Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 I always thought the "Gays can't be Christian" line alluded more to the idea of "Why would they want to be part of a religion that doesn't accept them and tells them they are an abomination?" rather than they are incapable of following and fufilling Christian tenants. Kind of like with slaves and women. I don't think it matters what the Bible says anyway. There are an alarming number of Christians that don't ever bother to read the book at all. It's just a symbol of faith. Yea. However to all Christians....they maintain anyways...that the bible is the cornerstone of Christianity because it is Gods word.... A Christian is one who follows the teachings of Christ. Well, where do we get the teachings of Christ from? The bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirangel Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 Interesting article. I think the sexual orientation therapy is a good idea to help people in their lives when they are trying to synchronize it with some sort of religious system. From my perspective it is frustrating that people would have to go through so much to try to come to terms with both their sexuality and religious convictions but if that's what they believe and that's what they want to do then who am I to speak against it. As long as there are no promises being made that it will be easy and that the change is something that is sudden and lasting. I can't really imagine having to deal with that though, it's got to be a tough battle, one that in my opinion shouldn't have to be fought. It's good that more people are recognizing that sexuality may not be a choice, we've come a long ways since the 70's, when homosexuality was no longer considered a mental disorder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted July 8, 2007 Author Share Posted July 8, 2007 Kirangel, for once I agree with something you say. What is this world coming to!?!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mankey Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 Kirangel, for once I agree with something you say. What is this world coming to!?!?! It certainly is better than doing nothing for a person in their place.....I must admit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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