Sex!

[Whindian]

...

[Lerato]

I really want to move out of this, but at the same time I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I still think sex is a special thing, and I'm not really the one for continuous one-night-stands. However I want relax, be open to the option of dating women with more experience (99% of the women at my age these days), and to enjoy a healthy sexual life without the fear of legalism.

 

It sounds too me from the above quote that you have already made a very appropriate decision about your sexual future and that now all you have to do is follow through on it. By all means put yourself out there and see what develops. Best case scenario you meet someone who shares similar interests and goals and who you can develop a relationship with; worst case scenario you put some experience on the books to learn from next time around.

 

Speaking from my own experience, I lost my virginity at age 20 when I was still a Christian (I'm a 27yo female btw). It didn't develop into any type of a relationship or anything but I still don't regret the experience (I do regret not using protection - fortunately I was lucky and ended up disease and baby free). In my own opinion your first time is not all that it's cracked up to be by the "save it for marriage" people. For one thing you're inexperienced and don't really know when to do what where, and for women it can also be somewhat painful the first time around. Some people have great first experiences, but I've talked to more people who have thought "Ok did that" than have heard a Hallelujah chorus going off their first time around. As for dating, I really don't give a damn what the guy's sexual history is as long as I feel that this is someone I can develop a relationship with based on common interests. I'd be equally ok with dating a virgin or a non-virgin. I have no beef with one-night stands or casual relationships either as long as both parties have an equal understanding of the parameters. But ultimately my own opinions are just that - my own opinions. Your body and your sex life are yours and it's you who gets to decide what to do with them, not some mysterious man with a gray beard in the sky. Therefore if you think that the decision you made is appropriate for you, go ahead and go for it!

[ShackledNoMore]

Hi Looking,

 

I hadn't noticed your post when you posted, but when I replied to your other thread today, I saw that you had three posts at the time, but only two in that thread--that's when I found this post.

 

While your experience is not exactly the same as mine, it hits very strongly along some similar themes in terms of xian upbringing and sexual purity.

 

Please feel free to read read my anti-testimony which I posted last fall here: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=12341

 

Be warned that it is rather long, but sexual purity angle both of my xianity and deconversion is one of the features. I hope that you find some use in it, or at least find it worth reading.

 

For that matter, re-reading my own anti-testimony tells of how I DIDN'T look at any skeptic material outside of apologetics when I was questioning (I just hinted in the other thread that it was helpful--and it definitely would have been).

 

In any case, the conclusion (at least intellectually) that our innate sexuality is good, natural, and our birthright seemed pretty obvious to me when I deconverted. And needless to say, I find it disastrous to suppress it on the basis of religious conditioning.

 

There's absolutely no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. On the contrary, a healthy attitude toward sexuality, without trying to repress one's natural impulses in accordance with some artificial and draconian ideal often leads to a more ethical sexuality for two reasons: 1) you're not busting at the seams from your repression and 2) the patriarchal basis for biblical sexual mores leads to an inequality between the sexes at best, and outright misogyny in some sects. The respect isn't there, and you see that double standard come out that is so prevalent in christendom. Fidelity and respect are cornerstones of my sexuality, and I have never been promiscuous. There are also those who don't uphold xian mores, perhaps have open relationships, but hold honesty in high regard in their sexual relationships. The idea that one needs to be xian to be moral is just as much a fallacy in sexuality as in other matters.

[pandora]

Most of them were based on insecurities.

 

That is the truth and a very keen observation. A mature person can handle that their partner has had other partners, and that some of these partners were better at certain things than he or she is. Sexual techniques can be mostly learned, anyway.

 

Welcome to the site! It takes a lot of time and just going out and taking a risk to get over sexuality issues from Christianity. It looks like you're well on your way!

[♦ nivek ♦]

Whalllllllllllllllll......

 

"Sperm Retention Disease" will kill ya...

 

Go from there to make sure you don't die young.

 

kFL

[Vigile]

by begining my sexual journey, I'm going to hurt my future wife very deeply.

 

I can positively relate. I also held back when those in my church lived fairly normal lives. I took it all seriously and felt that I was saving myself for god and for my future wife. I've since discovered that the sexual inexperience from my youth has carried over to sexual repression that I still struggle with in some ways (though I've overcome much). Speaking from being in your shoes and now having lived in the real world for many years, I can say that you need to get out there and experience yourself and others. You won't know if you are sexually compatible with your future wife if you haven't played the field and made comparisons.

 

When I was growing up I was told that premarital sex was like a McD's hamburger, but if I would only wait a bit I would be able to enjoy prime rib. I submit that if you've never eaten hamburgers or prime rib, you won't know which one you have sunk your teeth into when you make that first and final commitment to spend your life with one. You may in fact settle only for the hamburger and not know that you could actually have something that is much more enjoyable and compatible.

 

Make sense?

 

You don't taint yourself by having sex. Just the opposite, you repress yourself by abstaining. The xian position on this is twisted and ugly. I wish I could go back to your age and start over again. I'd do things a hell of a lot differently to be sure.

 

I still think sex is a special thing, and I'm not really the one for continuous one-night-stands.

 

The first time I broke down and actually had sex, I first felt extremely guilty. Then after a day of sitting around thinking about it, I got really angry. I realized that it wasn't the HUGE deal that I had built it up to be in my mind and that while it was good, it wasn't the end all of our beings like I had been programmed to believe from a very early age. I was already well on my way to deconverting, and this was the last straw for me.

 

You don't need to go around having one night stands, but you do need to start having adult relationships. I abstained because I thought I would have regrets if I didn't. Now I have serious regrets about abstaining. When I was your age I had many opportunities that I turned down. I will always regret that. It was stupid, and when I think about it, this, and the hell doctrine still bring up a seething anger about the garbage that I was indoctrinated with when I was too young to rationalize on my own.

 

You need to work through this repression when you are still young or I'm afraid you are going to look back at your life and have the same regrets.

 

I wish you well here.

[Sparrow]

... Text ...

 

Wow. You have thought a lot about this.

 

I’m no great expert on the topic and perhaps you need the advice more from a male than from a woman, but if I were to give advice it would be along the longs of “don’t stress, it will work itself out”.

 

This is probably not want to you want to hear. I suspect you want someone to tell if it is ok to have sex or not – presumably before you find that special someone.

 

So I think the first thing to understand is that while sex is very nice and it is even wonderful when you are with someone you love, sex is really a normal, mundane aspect of human life. It’s special, yes, but it’s not that special. So whatever you do, don’t go building monuments to it – it’s really just part of being human.

 

Second thing I think needs to be said is that whatever you do, never get married for sex. If you think that the proper place for sex is in marriage, then you in for a world of pain – if you get married. Marriage is fine. No problem with marriage. However, whatever you do, do not get married for the wrong reasons.

 

Third thing is that if there is a proper place for sex, then it is probably best expressed between two loving, consenting adults who respect and admire each other.

 

Fourth thing is probably related to being twenty-one years old in a society that is obsessed with anything vaguely sex related. Being in a society that focuses so much energy on either being totally sexual or totally abstinent is not going to be fun. Just remember that the rule is “there are no rules”. You don’t have to have sex and at the same time you don’t have to have no sex. It’s ultimately up to you – it’s your life – it’s your body – just remember to be respectful when dealing with other humans.

 

Regards

 

Spatz

[Guest Gibreel]

Hi looking_for_truth,

 

This was something I also found difficult when I left Xistianity. I'm 30, and hadn't slept with anyone for about ten years!

 

There's a Crowded House song "the guilty get no sleep, in the last slow hours of morning..." - that about sums up my first night in bed with my new boyfriend! I lay awake for hours feeling guilty and conflicted. However, I expected to feel this way, and realised that the only way to get over it was to get back on the horse (so to speak )

 

I don't have any great advice for you really - just to accept that residual guilt may well be part of the experience at first. And the physical awkwardness of being out of practice/ inexperienced is all part of the fun too. But it improves with practice.

 

Also, while it's great to wait for sex with someone special (my preferred option too) I think it's important not to take it all too seriously. It's much better to realise that it's going to be as awkward as hell to start with, and be able to laugh at the inevitable disasters of first-time sex. In my experience, the eye gazing and passionate sex came a bit later on, once you are more in sync with each other.

 

The last is to give you the perspective of a now non-Christian girl about this comment:

QUOTE

"by begining my sexual journey, I'm going to hurt my future wife very deeply."

 

I know you know this theoretically, but just to provide some reassurance - for non Xistian girls, this really isn't an issue. It sounds so obvious, but after being told the opposite by the purity movement for years, it can be so hard to believe. It's a poor analogy I know - but it's kind of like being really good mates with someone - I'm not haunted by the fact that they had other good friends that they did the same stuff with, before they met me.

 

Gibreel

[twincats]

Hi, looking,

 

A couple of points:

 

Of course you don’t know your future wife. In fact, you CAN’T know your future wife, regardless of how you wish/hope/expect/imagine her to be. So how can you know what will or will not hurt this unknown person? If you live your life according to the possible feelings of someone you haven’t met yet, how is that different from living your life to please some unknowable deity in the sky? What's the point of repressing yourself on that basis?

 

There can indeed be emotional consequences of sex. The way to mitigate these is respect. Respect for yourself and for the other person. Always.

 

Last, give yourself time to work out how you feel and decide what you want; there's no rush. Don't let anyone pressure you, not even yourself! I pressured myself to get rid of my virginity before entering the military many years ago and regretted it. Not the loss of virginity, I made a bad choice in sex partners and it was a bad experience.

 

I think Taphophilia’s thread “Ex-Christian Celibacy” in the Sex & Christianity forum might be helpful to you.

[Tabula Rasa]

Looking, I know how you feel. Guilt and a monstrous lack of self esteem made me feel repressed for a long time. I can't tell you much more than these other folks do regarding sex except for one thing. You are absolutely under no obligation to become a father when you get married. The idea that you have to have children was no doubt hammered into your mind during your time in Christianity, but it's not just Christianity that does it, practically every religion or philosophy does it.(I may be generalizing but it does seem to be the case.) To get to the point, it's your life to do with as you see fit. Whether you decide to be a parent or live a life dedicated to other pursuits and pastimes is your decision and yours alone.

One final thought: If you do have pre-marital sex, use a condom every time. Not only to guard against STDs, but for the original purpose of birth control. And let me re-iterate:Use one every time. What I'm about to tell you may sound like paranoia, but I have heard stories of women so desperate to have a baby, they'll lie about being on the pill or punch holes in condoms . Not trying to scare you my friend, sex is a wonderful thing, just be careful.

Kindest Regards.

TabulaNon Father Rasa

[Tabula Rasa]

Looking, I know how you feel. Guilt and a monstrous lack of self esteem made me feel repressed for a long time. I can't tell you much more than these other folks do regarding sex except for one thing. You are absolutely under no obligation to become a father when you get married. The idea that you have to have children was no doubt hammered into your mind during your time in Christianity, but it's not just Christianity that does it, practically every religion or philosophy does it.(I may be generalizing but it does seem to be the case.) To get to the point, it's your life to do with as you see fit. Whether you decide to be a parent or live a life dedicated to other pursuits and pastimes is your decision and yours alone.

One final thought: If you do have pre-marital sex, use a condom every time. Not only to guard against STDs, but for the original purpose of birth control. And let me re-iterate:Use one every time. What I'm about to tell you may sound like paranoia, but I have heard stories of women so desperate to have a baby, they'll lie about being on the pill or punch holes in condoms . Use your own condoms, and flush it when you're through.(Though this shouldn't be neccessary once you find someone you find worthy of trust.) Not trying to scare you my friend, sex is a wonderful thing, just be careful.

Kindest Regards.

TabulaNon Father Rasa

 

Edit: I don't mean to imply that all women try to oops men. If my post sounds like that I apologize to all the women on the board.

[Eric_PK]

It would be great if someone could post some advice. Furthermore if anyone who has been through a similar experience, even if its less extreme, could you post your anti-testimony? It would be nice to hear from someone that the world doesn't end when you start having sex. Thanks.

 

My perspective, as a 43-year-old guy who's been married for 21 years (yes, I married young - too young, really)

 

Sex is an important part of most serious relationships, and my experience is that couples who have different perspectives on the role of sex (how much, what it means, etc.) have trouble. Couples who have no experience also have trouble, in that they don't have any way of knowing how compatible their views are.

 

So, I think you get better results when both parties have some experience. They may get that experience with other people, or they may get it with each other, but I think it's foolish to enter into a legal contract without knowing how you relate in that dimension.

 

Sex is just part of being human - it's programmed into our genes. It's a great part of being human - and the intimacy that sex is a part of is one of the best parts of a relationship.

 

My other advice is that you should do a fair bit of research. Males are very simple sexually, females are very complex. Not only do they sometimes have trouble because of pressures for them to act a certain way, their response and needs are variable from woman to woman and day to day. There are books and internet resources that you can use to study. The "learn on the job" approach is what is usually tried, but women appreciate men who have done their homework ahead of time.

[Whindian]

Thanks for your replies. I wrote this a few months ago, and I'm still not really at the place where I can tackle this issue. I am going to continue to commit to educating myself about the strengths and weaknesses of my faith. I figure it'll either lead me into a deeper belief in Christianity, or my eventual departure from it.

 

If it leads to my departure, I'll attack this issue then. Otherwise I still feel like I'd be acting contrary to my beliefs, and thats strong enough even to over-ride my biological urges.

[Guest brookacton]

Thanks for your replies. I wrote this a few months ago, and I'm still not really at the place where I can tackle this issue. I am going to continue to commit to educating myself about the strengths and weaknesses of my faith. I figure it'll either lead me into a deeper belief in Christianity, or my eventual departure from it.

 

If it leads to my departure, I'll attack this issue then. Otherwise I still feel like I'd be acting contrary to my beliefs, and thats strong enough even to over-ride my biological urges.

 

I can completely relate to what you are going through....I was in a very similar place about a year ago.

I am 21...I deconverted around 19 (it took over a year to really deconvert..a long, hard process) and lost my virginity when I was 20 to my boyfriend who I was with for a year. (we just broke up recently...he is 31 and ultimately the age difference was too much) However, overall, it was a great experience and I am very thankful. I could not have asked for a better, more understanding lover.

About a year ago I struggled with immense guilt and questioning regarding pre-marital sex, and I think a lot of it came down to insecurity, as well as "black and white" ideas drilled into my head by my parents/church since a young child. (Oh Rebecca St. James, you didn't help me at all!)

Also, my boyfriend at the time was 30 and had slept with 8 women over the course of the 15 years he had been having sex... for me, 8 was a huge number of women. Though compared to most men in Manhattan (where I live) that number is very low! It took me a long time to accept him and his sexual past, because there is this idea in Christian culture about saving yourself for one person, etc etc...I basically felt "cheated". I even kind of felt cheated on. I think it ultimately comes down to insecurity and possessiveness.

As humans, we are intimate (whether emotionally/physically/mentally/etc) with many people throughout our lives: families, friends, strangers. Ultimately your experiences are your own and the intimacy you share with one person at one time doesn't make the intimacy with a different person at a different time any less significant or special.

In this short time of one year, I have pretty much gotten over all of my guilt and while I still have my issues (when it comes to sex, I think we all have our little quirks and issues) I feel a million times more comfortable with sexuality and the idea that there can be an appropriate time and place for pre-marital sex if you chose to make that decision.

As for the concern of most women in their early 20's being more sexually experienced...if you are with someone who makes you feel bad about your inexperience or doesn't respect you and your life experiences so far, then you deserve better and should find someone else. There are people out there that are understanding and can help you feel more comfortable with your sexuality.

And if you do slip up and do something you regret, try not to beat yourself up about it. Everyone makes mistakes. It's all about the learning experience.

 

 

Hope you are feeling better. Be patient with yourself.

 

Brook

 

p.s. if you ever want to talk about faith etc just give me a holler.