Help Me Explain It To My Family

[michie_s]

It's been a long, hard journey for me to becoming an ex-christian. I left a very abusive fundamentalist pentecostal church over 2 years ago and stopped going to church altogether just a few weeks ago. My family is still christian. My mother is a very devout pentecostal, my father somewhat so, my older brother is a believer (pentecostal), my younger brother and sister are believers (non-denom) but don't attend church regularly.

 

My problem is defending what I now feel and believe as a non-christian to my family(especially my parents), who think I'm just going through a "phase" and that if they keep on at me I will see the error of my ways and turn back to god. I'm not a very confrontational person, nor do I want to cause hurt to my family, but I want to let them know that I won't be changing my mind or go back to church.

 

Does anyone have suggestion on resources, literature or anything that I can share with my family that will help them understand where I am and why people de-convert? I've read a lot on different sites about the lies of christianity, some of which I think may be too harsh for my parents or sibs to handle. I think they would just dismiss it. Am I just hoping for too much here in wanting to try a gentle approach and wanting to offer them reason and logic? Am I just being naive? It's getting harder to deal with all the christian rhetoric from my parents especially. My sibs just want to keep the peace and for me to not upset my mother or to have to deal with her offloading on them about me and/or goading them to try and talk some sense into me. I'm just waiting for my mom to break out the anointing oil and start warfare prayers with a christian friend for my soul. When I told her about my decision she says that god promised her that all her children would be saved, and has laid down the gauntlet so to speak in declaring "may the better man win", so I know the battle is just beginning. I love my family and really don't want to fight with them so any suggestions would be helpful.

 

Michie

[mick]

It's been a long, hard journey for me to becoming an ex-christian. I left a very abusive fundamentalist pentecostal church over 2 years ago and stopped going to church altogether just a few weeks ago. My family is still christian. My mother is a very devout pentecostal, my father somewhat so, my older brother is a believer (pentecostal), my younger brother and sister are believers (non-denom) but don't attend church regularly.

 

My problem is defending what I now feel and believe as a non-christian to my family(especially my parents), who think I'm just going through a "phase" and that if they keep on at me I will see the error of my ways and turn back to god. I'm not a very confrontational person, nor do I want to cause hurt to my family, but I want to let them know that I won't be changing my mind or go back to church.

 

Does anyone have suggestion on resources, literature or anything that I can share with my family that will help them understand where I am and why people de-convert? I've read a lot on different sites about the lies of christianity, some of which I think may be too harsh for my parents or sibs to handle. I think they would just dismiss it. Am I just hoping for too much here in wanting to try a gentle approach and wanting to offer them reason and logic? Am I just being naive? It's getting harder to deal with all the christian rhetoric from my parents especially. My sibs just want to keep the peace and for me to not upset my mother or to have to deal with her offloading on them about me and/or goading them to try and talk some sense into me. I'm just waiting for my mom to break out the anointing oil and start warfare prayers with a christian friend for my soul. When I told her about my decision she says that god promised her that all her children would be saved, and has laid down the gauntlet so to speak in declaring "may the better man win", so I know the battle is just beginning. I love my family and really don't want to fight with them so any suggestions would be helpful.

 

Michie

 

http://www.lulu.com/content/1003374

 

My firend wrote this book, but I have read much of it in his blogs and find it excellent. The established book I would consider is The God Delusion. But I'm telling my friend's book is very specific to explaining why a true beleiver rejects it.

[R. S. Martin]

Michie, I guess I think it must be easier if one's family thinks it's just a phase. My family does not think it's a phase; they think it's a life decision and they see it as their responsibility to correct this. Even when they agree not to talk about religion, I can tell it's just beneath the surface when I talk with them.

 

There is one important person in my life who thinks it's just a phase. And I find it extremely frustrating that I can't make him believe me. On the other hand, a person who thinks it's just a phase is not as likely to impose persecution.

 

With my family, I have had to cut contact back to a bare minimum. Standing up for one's beliefs is never easy because it means being different from the majority. You may have to decide which is more important: personal integrity or acceptance from those around you.

[R. S. Martin]

You may want to look at a thread that was started long before I joined. It's in Frequently Asked Questions and Topics. The title is Breaking the Bad News.

[Kurari]

Well, you may not be able to make them understand it, but you definately don't have to put up with it.

 

The religious are not rational. Arguing the truth with them may do very little. If they start talking about it, tell them "This is personal and not up for discussion" Or get up and walk out of the room in the middle of the conversation if they don't get the hint. You don't have to be confrontational, but make it absolutely clear that they are not to intrude on your spirituality and let them think what they want. You might be better off in the long run.

[Piprus]

Michie:

Does anyone have suggestion on resources, literature or anything that I can share with my family that will help them understand where I am and why people de-convert?

If all else fails, michie, you can try what is called "the broken record". That means, simply to repeat..."But what is the EVIDENCE that Jesus is real, etc. etc."?... Repeat it in response to every challenge to your non-belief in the dogma that you were brought up in. In truth, there is no credible evidence that Jesus ever existed. You will see, and hopefully your family will too, that there is no credible evidence that Jesus ever existed, and that the "gospel" is at its very foundation a falsehood.

 

No doubt you love your family. But that does not mean that you have to buy in to the meme that they do. You ARE free to think for your self and be your own individual person. But for your own peace of mind, you need to define your own territory and position on the matter at hand.

[Robbobrob]

What you need to establish with them are boundries. And the boundry you are trying to establish is, "It's my spiritual life, and I will do with it as I see fit." I see no point in arguing over the accuracy and logic of the Bible. They are dealing with it on an emotional level, and so you need to protect yourself on an emotional level. You don't want to hurt your family, BUT is it really fair to let them hurt you instead. Part of the becoming an Adult (mental age, not physical age) and setting your own path in this world. Don't let them use emotional black-mail to keep you under control. They fear your new found freedom. Don't you become afraid of it.

[michie_s]

Thanks to everyone so far for your responses. I'm so glad that I found this site as I'm not sure how I would handle this on my own. Most of my friends - 90% - are christian and I really can't talk to them about this (guess that's for another post). It was my sister that outed me by telling my parents that I'm a "heathen" and I was forced to come clean and have "the talk".

 

... Part of the becoming an Adult (mental age, not physical age) and setting your own path in this world. Don't let them use emotional black-mail to keep you under control. They fear your new found freedom. Don't you become afraid of it.

 

Robbobrob, you make a great point about not being afraid of my new found freedom! I lived in fear for over 14 yrs as a fundie christian (and still do in some ways) and it's hard to break out of that mindset as well as being "childlike" even though I am an adult.

 

I think the hardest thing for my family to comprehend is how can someone who was a bible quoting, holy ghost filled, tongue speaking, jesus freak become an ex-christian. Out of all my sibs I was the most fundemental (no alcohol, no dating, no TV, separation from non-pente's, KJV only bible etc..etc..). Needless to say everyone at my old Pente church thinks I'm going to hell because I left, much the less that I'm a non believer now!

 

This is all pretty new for me still, I just hope it gets easier over time.

 

Michie

[Curtdude]

Welcome michie. I hope this site is a calm and rational place for you to come and debrief.

 

I have explained several times to my fundy family about why I am not a christian. They don't get it. They are in the circular reasoning of "faith doesn't need to make sense" and "god's ways aren't our ways" - with these two sayings christians can explain away just about anything in their religion that makes zero sense.

 

If you're still financially dependent on them, I'd keep a low profile and avoid the subject. The last thing you want to happen is for them to kick you out before you are able to fend for yourself.

 

My only other advice is to let them be the irrational and emotional ones - when you keep your cool and act the adult, maybe another of your sibs, or even one of your parents, may sit up and take notice.

 

And you'll be amazed how good it feels to be in control of your emotions and, ultimately, your future. This is another aspect of deconverting from a cult: no longer do you need to look to some outside force to guide you. It's all up to you now.

 

Take care.

[Kirangel]

Michie,

I'm seen as the prodigal son (daughter). My family thinks it's all a phase as well and that I will come back to the faith. I haven't really confronted them any further, I guess I just don't feel the need to. I think you were given some good advice here, good luck.

[R. S. Martin]

If all else fails, michie, you can try what is called "the broken record". That means, simply to repeat..."But what is the EVIDENCE that Jesus is real, etc. etc."?... Repeat it in response to every challenge to your non-belief in the dogma that you were brought up in. In truth, there is no credible evidence that Jesus ever existed. You will see, and hopefully your family will too, that there is no credible evidence that Jesus ever existed, and that the "gospel" is at its very foundation a falsehood.

 

The key word in there is "credible." What you and I consider credible is not necessarily the same thing Christians consider credible. I think it's important to know this when debating with Christians. Last fall I was taking a course on New Testament and I was also on this forum. In class we covered the evidence for Jesus' existence. I also started a thread on this forum on the same topic. I wanted to know how things looked to exChristians.

 

I think my question went something like this: Is there any extra-biblical, nonreligious evidence for Jesus' existence? I wanted it to be extra-biblical and nonreligious. Why? Because of the strong tendency to be biased when it comes to religion.

 

There is extra-biblical and nonreligious evidence. But not an awful lot. Also, I consider the evidence to be less solid than the Christians do. There is evidence that there were people known as Christians. There is evidence that these Christians believed in a Christus or Chrestus, and worshipped him as a god. We get that from Roman government letters that have been preserved.

 

What we don't get is actual reference to a man called Jesus of Nazareth. Just because they worshipped Christus/Chrestus "as a god" does not say the object of worship ever existed in history. There was quite a mishmash of religions in the Middle East at the time. The way I see it, that governor practiced religious tolerance when he referrerd to Christus "as a god." Or perhaps he was being sarcastic. Whatever, he did not explicitly state that this Christus ever existed in historical reality, only that people believed he did. Therein lies the strength of my argument. Belief is not the same as historical fact. Now let's look at the Christians.

 

Christian historians and Christian biblical scholars will go so far as to argue that we have more evidence for Jesus' existence than we do for some other ancient figures, and if we take religious literature as credible evidence, they're right. My prof brought up that argument. However, the Christian scholars come up with no other and no better evidence than we did on this forum. We just interpretted it differently.

 

One more point. These profs demand that when I am writing I need to provide solid, water-proof arguements. My arguments have to be sounder than any argument they have yet dug up for the evidence of Jesus' existence. Because I have chosen to get an education at a Christian institution I do not feel that I have the right to push the argument that far. However, if I were in an all-out battle to prove someone wrong I would not hesitate to bring it out.

 

All the same, this is not a battle that is easily won, not if non-fundy profs insist that the evidence exists. That is pretty strong authority in the eyes of Christians.

[michie_s]

...Is there any extra-biblical, nonreligious evidence for Jesus' existence? I wanted it to be extra-biblical and nonreligious. Why? Because of the strong tendency to be biased when it comes to religion.

 

....this is not a battle that is easily won...

 

RubySera,

I think that would be my greatest challenge in trying to explain to my folks why I don't believe in christianity anymore. As far as they are concerned "the bible says, I believe it, that settles it"!! There is no arguing when it comes to the bible with my mom. I hit a stonewall because she just tunes out when it comes to arguments on FAITH and BELIEF - which are so nebulous!

I guess I may have to settle (for now) with defending what I feel and believe rather then aggressively trying to get them to think rationally about what they believe.

 

Michie

[R. S. Martin]

That sounds like a logical solution, Michie. Stone walls are terribly things to bang your head against.

[mwc]

There is evidence that these Christians believed in a Christus or Chrestus, and worshipped him as a god. We get that from Roman government letters that have been preserved.

Just a real quick nit here. This is the reference: "Since the Jews were constantly causing disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he [Claudius] expelled them from Rome." - Suetonius, Lives of the Caesars - Claudius 5.25.4 (c. 120 CE)

 

I just wanted to point out that it was the Jews and not Christians that were referenced in the quote and the expulsion of the Jews from Rome was attested to by other sources. The xians were really an unknown group in this early period. Also, Chrestus is a proper name so reworking it as Christus is incorrect.

 

mwc

[Guest Marty]

As far as they are concerned "the bible says, I believe it, that settles it"!! There is no arguing when it comes to the bible with my mom.

 

Then why not point out to your mom that she has no problem with slavery, bashing the heads of babies on rocks joyfully, and ripping open the bellies of pregnant women of neighboring tribes? You may also want to point out the logical flaws like the circumference of a circle being 3, or bats being classified as birds. I realize this won't do much, but the bible is full of horrific and innaccurate stuff, at best you may get her to think a little bit in trying to justify everything in there.

 

On a side note, you are in Coral Springs? I live in Pompano Beach. If you ever want to come hang out with a bunch of beer drinking, pool playing heathen musicians we ain't that far away!

[michie_s]

As far as they are concerned "the bible says, I believe it, that settles it"!! There is no arguing when it comes to the bible with my mom.

 

Then why not point out to your mom that she has no problem with slavery, bashing the heads of babies on rocks joyfully, and ripping open the bellies of pregnant women of neighboring tribes? You may also want to point out the logical flaws like the circumference of a circle being 3, or bats being classified as birds. I realize this won't do much, but the bible is full of horrific and innaccurate stuff, at best you may get her to think a little bit in trying to justify everything in there.

 

On a side note, you are in Coral Springs? I live in Pompano Beach. If you ever want to come hang out with a bunch of beer drinking, pool playing heathen musicians we ain't that far away!

 

Hey Marty,

 

I will try that angle and see what she says, though I'm sure she will have some justification for it. My parents are getting older and I don't want to cause them too much grief, but I wish I could help them see sense and respect what I now believe.

 

Thanks for the invite. Let me know where you hang out, as I'm fairly new to south Florida, coming originally from the "Great White North" aka Canada. Pompano Beach is pretty close to where I'm at so I should be able to find my way there without getting too lost!

 

Michie

[R. S. Martin]

There is evidence that these Christians believed in a Christus or Chrestus, and worshipped him as a god. We get that from Roman government letters that have been preserved.

Just a real quick nit here. This is the reference: "Since the Jews were constantly causing disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he [Claudius] expelled them from Rome." - Suetonius, Lives of the Caesars - Claudius 5.25.4 (c. 120 CE)

 

I just wanted to point out that it was the Jews and not Christians that were referenced in the quote and the expulsion of the Jews from Rome was attested to by other sources. The xians were really an unknown group in this early period. Also, Chrestus is a proper name so reworking it as Christus is incorrect.

 

mwc

 

 

Okay, maybe that was one of the passages that came up in my course in NT to "prove" the existence of Christ. I am not too familiar with it, though I do remember there was discussion as to whether or not this might be understood as evidence of the historical Jesus. Biblical scholars have not conclusively determined that Chrestus did not mean Christus; there could have been a spelling mistake somewhere, esp. given that the Romans may have been unfamiliar with the gods of other people. That is more or less the way the Christian argument goes.

 

The passage I am most familiar with is Pliny the Younger as follows:

 

BOOK TEN LETTER 96

 

TO THE EMPEROR TRAJAN

 

IT is a rule, Sir, which I inviolably observe, to refer myself to you in all my doubts; for who is more capable of guiding my uncertainty or informing my ignorance? Having never been present at any trials of the Christians, I am unacquainted with the method and limits to be observed either in examining or punishing them. Whether any difference is to be made on account of age, or no distinction allowed between the youngest and the adult; whether repentance admits to a pardon, or if a man has been once a Christian it avails him nothing to recant; whether the mere profession of Christianity, albeit without crimes, or only the crimes associated therewith are punishable in all these points I am greatly doubtful.

 

In the meanwhile, the method I have observed towards those who have been denounced to me as Christians is this: I interrogated them whether they were Christians; if they confessed it I repeated the question twice again, adding the threat of capital punishment; if they still persevered, I ordered them to be executed. For whatever the nature of their creed might be, I could at least feel no doubt that contumacy and inflexible obstinacy deserved chastisement. There were others also possessed with the same infatuation, but being citizens of Rome, I directed them to be carried thither.

 

These accusations spread (as is usually the case) from the mere fact of the matter being investigated and several forms of the mischief came to light. A placard was put up, without any signature, accusing a large number of persons by name. Those who denied they were, or had ever been, Christians, who repeated after me an invocation to the Gods, and offered adoration, with wine and frankincense, to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for that purpose, together with those of tbe Gods, and who finally cursed Christ none of which acts, it is said, those who are really Christians can be forced into performing these I thought it proper to discharge. Others who were named by that informer at first confessed themselves Christians, and then denied it; true, they had been of that persuasion but they had quitted it, some three years, others many years, and a few as much as twentyfive years ago. They all worshipped your statue and the images of the Gods, and cursed Christ.

 

They affirmed, however, the whole of their guilt, or their error, was, that they were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food but food of an ordinary and innocent kind. Even this practice, however, they had abandoned after the publication of my edict, by which, according to your orders, I had forbidden political associations. I judged it so much the more necessary to extract the real truth, with the assistance of torture, from two female slaves, who were styled deaconesses: but I could discover nothing more than depraved and excessive superstition.

 

I therefore adjourned the proceedings, and betook myself at once to your counsel. For the matter seemed to me well worth referring to you, especially considering the numbers endangered. Persons of all ranks and ages, and of both sexes are, and will be, involved in the prosecution. For this contagious superstition is not confined to the cities only, but has spread through the villages and rural districts; it seems possible, however, to check and cure it. 'Tis certain at least that the temples, which had been almost deserted, begin now to be frequented; and the sacred festivals, after a long intermission, are again revived; while there is a general demand for sacrificial animals, which for some time past have met with but few purchasers. From hence it is easy to imagine what multitudes may be reclaimed from this error, if a door be left open to repentance.

 

From: http://www.vroma.org/~hwalker/Pliny/Pliny10-096-E.html

 

I bolded the part I am referring to. Note that Pliny clearly refers to Christ. He also says the Christians worshipped Christ "as...a god."

 

Christian argument: They could not worship Christ as a god if he did not exist. Therefore, this proves that he existed.

My argument: "As a god" could simply mean that Pliny was saying: You know how many fictitious characters the common people worship. There is this one sect called Christians and the name of their god is Christ.

 

I see no evidence in there that this Christ ever existed.

The purpose of Pliny's letter was to find out how severely he should punish people who at one time or another had been members in this sect--in other words, do exChristians deserve to be executed for security reasons? Are they still a threat to the state even if they prove that they no longer participate in Christian rituals and meetings? Pliny spells out the investigation he has done, and he knows that the sect must be stamped out. However, is it reasonable to kill all the people who at one time belonged to the sect but no longer do? That was his question. Some of them say they have been out for twenty years, and some for only three years. Should all of these people be executed because of past folly?

 

Pliny could not have cared less whether or not this Christ person ever existed.

 

That is how I see it.

 

I believe the Christian profs would see it the same way if they didn't absolutely have to retain the historical Jesus.

[NearlyInsane]

This is all pretty new for me still, I just hope it gets easier over time.

It definitely does!

 

 

As far as they are concerned "the bible says, I believe it, that settles it"!! There is no arguing when it comes to the bible with my mom. I hit a stonewall because she just tunes out when it comes to arguments on FAITH and BELIEF - which are so nebulous!

This is why I took to studying the bible in my early days as an atheist (I can't say early days of my deconversion, because that took too many years to count). I learned that the easiest way to get fanatics - especially my family - to leave me alone about religion was to use their biggest weapon against them. Anyone mentions the bible to me & I'll be quick to whip out Numbers 31, lol. Hell, I'd volunteer to LEAD bible study! I'td be the most interesting bible study ever given in my town, heh!

 

As for literature, here are some of my favorite books on the subject. First, for a quick reference & explanation of the most problematic parts of the bible, guaranteed to confuse & baffle the most fervent believer, I recommend The Encyclopedia of Biblical Errancy by C. Dennis McKinsey.

 

Another book that really rips xtianity to shreds is Is It God's Word : An Exposition of the Fables & Mythology of the Bible & the Fallacies of Theology by: Joseph Wheless. I must warn you, this is no easy read. But it is a wonderful example of a man (the author) who was a minister & ardent xtian, who studied the bible in order to become a better xtian & instead came away convinced that the religion was no more than a sham. He explains the historical context in which each section was written & lots of other goodies that really makes the best explanation I've ever seen or heard about the most likely reality of the bible & it's contents. Great read if you have the time & patience to get through it.

 

And last, but not least, the quickest & funniest reference to problematic bible passages I've ever seen: Ken's Guide to the Bible by Ken Smith.

 

The best thing about all 3 of these books is that they have book & verse for everything they say - you need only open your copy of the bible (if you haven't burned it) & see that what they say is absolutely true. I mention this because even as a complete non-believer I found many of the things I read in those 3 books to be unbelieveable. Honestly - I could not believe these things are really in that book I'd been "studying" for so many years! The xtians are experts at steering their sheep to the parts of the book they want you to look at. I've since become an expert at steering people to the parts that I want them to look at.

[mwc]

Anyone mentions the bible to me & I'll be quick to whip out Numbers 31, lol. Hell, I'd volunteer to LEAD bible study! I'td be the most interesting bible study ever given in my town, heh!

You made me look it up since it sounded familiar. That one is quite the read isn't it?

 

40 And the persons were sixteen thousand, of whom the LORD'S tribute was thirty and two persons.

And what did he DO with those persons, eh? I bet they made a sweet smell like everything else offered up to him.

 

mwc

[NearlyInsane]

And what did he DO with those persons, eh? I bet they made a sweet smell like everything else offered up to him.

Now you know damn well they stunk - they were heathens!

 

[michie_s]

Another book that really rips xtianity to shreds is Is It God's Word : An Exposition of the Fables & Mythology of the Bible & the Fallacies of Theology by: Joseph Wheless....And last, but not least, the quickest & funniest reference to problematic bible passages I've ever seen: Ken's Guide to the Bible by Ken Smith.

 

The xtians are experts at steering their sheep to the parts of the book they want you to look at. I've since become an expert at steering people to the parts that I want them to look at.

 

Thanks,

These two books sound especially interesting. Think I'll get them for myself and then pass on to my family.

 

I agree with you that xtians mostly refer to and steer others to the parts of the bible that they can easily defend and that makes them look good. I spoke to a xtian friend who is going through a period of doubting, but still believes in the god of the bible. She says that half the time she does not even understand what the OT was talking about. I think that is true of so many believers, just gloss over the stuff you don't understand and trust god to explain it to you oneday or when you get to heaven.

 

I too went back and read Num 31! YUK!! how did I not see or understand that before? And what happened to all of those virgins I wonder?..Hhmmn?? Priests and virgins..I'm sure all they had them do was wash their socks and cook their meals..right!!

 

Michie

[מה טבו]

You're not going to get them to understand.

 

It's that simple. I say this as someone who has been openly non-Christian for 11 years. If your parents are that deeply religious, much of their psychological framework is built around religion, and they will never really understand your decision to leave.

 

True Believers tend to think that everyone else secretly believes as they do - that differing opinions are just veneers. Any arguments you make, they're just going to see as rebellion, demonic possession, whatever they want to believe. This doesn't mean that you shouldn't learn arguments - no, learn them well for your own benefit. Just don't expect them to work on your parents.

 

You will never get them to understand your decision to leave Christianity, but over time they may learn to tolerate it.

 

The best way to persuade your parents that their harping won't get you back to church - is to not go back to church. It takes a while - often several years - but they do eventually figure it out.

 

They may never entirely stop proselytizing. For your own sanity, just try to view it as a harmless eccentricity - like the ravings of a senile old aunt. Be nice and humor them, but live your own life.

[NearlyInsane]

Another book that really rips xtianity to shreds is Is It God's Word : An Exposition of the Fables & Mythology of the Bible & the Fallacies of Theology by: Joseph Wheless....And last, but not least, the quickest & funniest reference to problematic bible passages I've ever seen: Ken's Guide to the Bible by Ken Smith.

 

The xtians are experts at steering their sheep to the parts of the book they want you to look at. I've since become an expert at steering people to the parts that I want them to look at.

 

Thanks,

These two books sound especially interesting. Think I'll get them for myself and then pass on to my family.

Your family won't read them. Assuming they actually opened them, they wouldn't get past the first we pages of the Wheless book. Ken's Guide to the Bible will end up on the burn pile for sure! You'll understand what I mean when you see it. Blatantly "blasphemous". My favorite part is the icons he has next to each passage to categorize them: woman bashing, god's wrath, etc. The best ones have a cuckoo clock next to them - guess what that implies...

 

 

I too went back and read Num 31! YUK!! how did I not see or understand that before? And what happened to all of those virgins I wonder?..Hhmmn?? Priests and virgins..I'm sure all they had them do was wash their socks and cook their meals..right!!

LOL. Yep... the whole of Numbers 31 really puts the OT in perspective. I mean, why is this "benevolent god" ordering his people to attack the menionites in the first place? That happens all through the OT. It was written as "look how powerful our god is" propaganda, and somehow these nutters are STILL trying to fit that in w/ the rest of their beliefs, including the jesus "easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter heaven" philosophy. So after god spent centuries ordering wars & killing & the taking of "spoils", he sent his son (yet at the same time himself), to change all the old rules? I can see how most modern christians prefer the OT on many points - most would much rather kill people for money than imagine that camel/needle thing to be correct (Iraq anyone?). And those who claim homosexuality to be "wrong" have only the OT to back that assertion. And on it goes.

[michie_s]

Some good news - I had a chat with my best friend yesterday who is still a xian although not attending church regularly. I sent her links to Ken Harding’s web page on biblical errors and contradictions and she actually read them and agreed with lots of what was said. We were able to have a great conversation about this and I can only hope that she is on her way to enlightenment. She was the one who originally raised the questions, so I sent her some info from the links I've found here - so thanks for all the resources. I plan on keeping the communication going on this topic.

 

On another note - I recently attended a conference where I shared a hotel room with my mom, while my sister shared another room. My flight left one day earlier than my mom's so she had one night alone in the same room.

My sister told me that she slept with the lights on, her bible open and her jewish prayer cloth over her head in case I had left any spirits behind!! You know, the demons that posses me might have stayed behind so they might jump on her and invade her body and gasp...cause her to doubt or lose faith. She found out about my de-conversion while on this trip so maybe it was just a reaction to that, but gimme a break! More of the madness that makes me wonder if it's worth trying to explain anything.

 

Michie

[מה טבו]

My sister told me that she slept with the lights on, her bible open and her jewish prayer cloth over her head in case I had left any spirits behind!!

 

Yeesh! No offence, but your mom just creeped me the hell out.

 

I sympathize though - when I was 15, I watched my father attempt an exorocism on my step-grandmother.

 

I've never heard of tzitzit and tallit being used to protect against "evil spirits". Any of the rabbis I know would probably find that one a bit strange. If your mom thinks you're possessed though, I hope you're not from the type of family that performs exorocisms. I've been through a few - if you think "the talk" with your parents was awkward...