Why I Believe Anti-Evangelism Is Wrong

[webmdave]

by Tyrone Williams

 

If there’s one thing worse than an evangelical Christian, it’s an evangelical UNBELIEVER. Someone who insists on preaching the "good news of UN-belief." Sheesh. Will it never end?

 

There must either be something in the water, or something in our genes, but for some reason every human being, at one time or another, believes it is their (forgive me) “god-given” right to tell someone else how to live/what to do. Why do we often believe that WE have the “right answer” for everyone else? Why do we find it so damned difficult to just shut the hell up and leave other people alone? Why do we derive so much carnal satisfaction from assuming the role of Authority Figure in everyone else’s lives? From governments to parents to teachers to best selling authors to comedians to friends to spouses to neighbors to co-workers, everybody seems to get off on being “right” and correcting someone else’s alleged deficiencies.

 

And if there weren’t enough know-it-alls roaming the landscape, now added to the list are the newest evangelical busybodies -- the religious unbelievers. Those people who have made a successful break from god-belief and now believe it is their DUTY to convince (force) the “deluded masses” of the error of their ways.

 

To this I cry, “Shenanigans!”

 

[i recognize the delicious irony of my telling people that THEY are “wrong,” in a hit piece admonishing people to “mind your own business!” But it just can’t be helped. Simply take solace in that this is just an informative rant, and you are under no obligation to agree with what I say here. I’m not speaking as any Authority Figure. Just someone with a salient point of view. Okay?]

 

Now, before I begin casting my stones, let it be known that I also shared in this particular “sin.” I’m as guilty as the next impertinent a-hole who dared to stick his nose where it wasn’t wanted. So I KNOW whereof I speak. Back when I was a new atheist I considered it my Duty to de-convert all and sundry. I wrote many hostile anti-Christian diatribes and formulated many plans for my Atheist Evangelical Crusades. I even called myself an “Evangelical Atheist.” Fortunately none of my plans ever saw the light of day. By spending time on these forums, and others like this one, I was humbled to confess the error of my ways. A few people (Christians and Ex-C) correctly beat it into my thick skull that ANTI-evangelism is equally as wrong and as offensive as it’s counterpart.

 

The reason that I’m re-visiting this subject is that it appears that the lesson must be taught anew to the newly “born-again” unbelievers. I’m seeing a resurgence of people who wish to perform door-to-door anti-evangelism, begin forum wars with Christians or engage in e-mail debates with family and friends, just to delight in telling them how “wrong” they are for believing. Not cool, people. Not cool.

 

Your zeal is commendable, but misplaced. Rather than labor fruitlessly to free those who resent your efforts, you should simply enjoy your new lease on life.

 

I KNOW how much it hurts you to witness those you love “throwing their lives away in this foolish pursuit.” I KNOW how badly you want to shake some sense into them. You want to take them through their religion and brick by brick tear down it’s foundation. You want to strap them down, a la A Clockwork Orange, and force them to watch Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris videos until they see the light, hallelujah! And having done these things, you imagine that you will be congratulated or applauded for “rescuing them” from their enslavement.

 

But that would be wrong. In fact, I hope you realize that it would be down right sadistic. Who are we to take away someone's comfort? Going toe-to-toe in debate with people on forums such as this is one thing. We all asked for it. But ambushing friends, family and strangers minding their own business is out of bounds.

 

In general, anti-evangelism is wrong because A) We don’t have the RIGHT to take away someone’s beliefs, and IT DOESN’T WORK ANYWAY!

 

Religious beliefs aside, people of all ages, creeds, sex, races, politics, etc. have ALWAYS believed something “stupid” (i.e. something someone doesn’t agree with). And as I said earlier, there seems to be a never-ending procession of self-appointed Authority Figures lining up to correct/control these “errant thinkers.”

 

Do I REALLY need to belabor the point that it is FUNDAMENTALLY wrong to abrogate another’s freedom of choice? It all boils down to the Golden Rule. If YOU don’t want someone telling YOU how to live/what to do, then it sure is hell is wrong for you to force YOUR views down another person’s throat. It doesn’t matter how ill-advised or self-destructive you believe someone is being. So long as their choices don’t infringe upon YOUR life, then we are all obliged to shut the hell up. Case closed. No debate necessary.

 

No one is saying that you aren’t entitled to your opinions. Nor that you must hide what you believe, or not defend your beliefs. Not at all. I happen to be one of THE Most Strongly Opinionated curmudgeons this side of the Antares Maelstrom, and I will defend my beliefs with every nefarious weapon in my considerable mental arsenal.

 

But note that I said "DEFEND my beliefs." If someone wants to start an argument with me then I’ll be more than happy than to assail them with whatever beliefs I have, simultaneously laying assault to THEIR beliefs. What I WON’T do is start a fight with someone in an attempt to “convert them” to my side. I think that is rude. And anyone who does such a thing deserves to get their head handed to them on a platter. I’m a firm believer in “Live and Let Live” and “Mind Your Own Damned Business!” [Present case excepted! I'm giving advice, not challenging your world view.]

 

Aside from any necessary defenses, I believe that it is the height of decency and good manners just to ignore people’s religious foibles. Don’t get your knickers in a twist every time someone casually says something religious. It’s not a Call To Arms. They’re just words. Don’t be such a prickly pear. If mom and grandma think their prayers are doing YOU some good, then how does this harm you? Let them have their pacifier. Humor them and politely change the subject.

 

Besides, you won’t change their minds anyway.

 

Anti-evangelism is doomed to fail and here are several reasons why.

 

1. Religious people (just like everyone else) believe that THEY are right, and YOU are wrong. Everyone believes that THEY have done ALL the requisite thinking/research enough to have made an “informed decision”, and your gnat’s buzzing will simply be viewed as “sour grapes” from the undereducated. Simply stated -- they’re NOT going to listen to you. Talk/write ALL you want, but you’re preaching to the Unconvertable. They may humor you, but rest assured your words are being filed in the Circular File Cabinet. [We do the same thing to them.]

 

2. Faith trumps Reason everyday and twice on Sunday. No matter what Reason you trot out -- no matter how many contradictions you find, no matter how many errors, no matter how well you can dismantle their doctrine -- the Theist will ALWAYS find refuge in their Faith. God has given them Faith to believe, while denying it to you. (Poor soul.) It sucks to be you, with your hardened heart.

 

3. Your “attack” against their Faith will ALWAYS be viewed as “panic fire”, AND it will justify and cement their belief. The more you lash out at religion, the more it will be seen as someone who is “afraid of God”, or “angry at God.” Trust me -- you can’t win by going on the offensive with religion. They’ll perceive it as “persecution” and you’ll only strengthen their Faith. The best thing to do is just humor them and live your life in peace. That ALWAYS confuses the hell out of them.

 

4. They can’t AFFORD to be wrong. After many years of convincing themselves to believe, and investing their LIVES in this thing, the theist can’t now afford to admit that they’re wrong! You don’t really expect someone who has claimed Faith for 80 years to just drop it all after a few clever words from you, do you? Decades of egg on the face doesn’t wash off that easily.

 

Think back to how difficult it was for YOU to let go of your faith. The Most Difficult Thing To Do was to admit that you were wrong. That you’d been suckered for a fool. Confessing to being wrong is hard enough, but admitting that you’d wasted years and resources to a huge and now OBVIOUS con? That goes against every screaming, self-defensive nerve ending in your body.

 

5. Which brings me to my final reason for believing anti-evangelism to be wrong. People are seldom (if ever) convinced of their mistakes via external pressure. The revelation MUST come from within. The more you press from without, the MORE they resist your “attacks.” Just out of spite or embarrassment.

 

Remember how it was with you? I remember how it was with me. For the short time that I was a Christian NOBODY could have convinced me that I was wrong, and for all the previous reasons listed. I was only capable of escaping when I doubted, questioned and REASONED myself out of the faith. Had anyone poked and prodded me I probably would have gone running back to the church, fearing a “trap of the devil.” People MUST be allowed to make their own decisions/mistakes. Not only is this their Right, but in that way they can be certain that they weren’t tricked by some smooth talking “devil.” If they suspected for a moment that you tricked them into unbelief, then they’ll be back on their knees to god, begging forgiveness, faster than you can say “Rosary beads.”

 

Not to mention the fact that I wouldn't WANT to be responsible for causing someone to "lose their faith." People are left in a fragile and vulnerable state after that. Are you going to be around 24/7 to nursemaid them through all their doubts and recriminations? I'm not. People are much better equipped to accept their new reality IF they labor through the stages on their own.

 

The Best Anti-evangelism is similar to the Best Evangelism…just live an honest and exemplary life. Be “salt and light” and SHOW them what “fruit” you have. If they're curious they'll begin doubting, asking questions and making informed decisions. Arm twisting and propaganda pieces are coercive tactics and they stink.

 

So there you have it. Why I believe anti-evangelism is both wrong and doomed to failure.

 

Now, I’m not naive. I know that some of you haven’t been convinced and feel totally justified in taking the battle to THEM. That’s your right. But before you go off half-cocked, picking fights where once their was none, ask yourself these questions…Is THIS the hill you want to die on? Is ruffling feathers and getting friends and family members’ noses out of joint REALLY worth this dubious “cause” of yours? Having dropped one fundamentalist habit, do you really want to take up another? Besides, you’re unlikely to convince anyone that you're right, AND you’re more likely to strain your relationships.

 

I’m not saying you can’t be openly unbelieving. Just stop acting like a fundamentalist unbeliever. Stop trying to live everyone’s lives for them and mind your own business.

 

Fortune cookie say, “He who sticks his nose in other people’s business is apt to lose his sense of smell.”

 

So put down your Skeptics Annotated Bible. Amp down the volume and rage on your anti-apologetics web sites. Stop e-mailing your friends, family and your old pastor to pick a fight over their religious mania, and start smelling the roses, instead of smelling a rat. It may well be rotten in Vatican City, but unless you’re a resident it doesn’t concern you. Take that Golgotha-sized chip off of your shoulder and just relax in your newly won freedom from religious tyranny, alright? We’ve got more than enough would be dictators telling everyone ELSE what to do. We don’t need you adding to the signal-to-noise ratio, further confusing the picture so that no one can tell the apologists from the apostates.

 

 

“But that’s just my opinion…I could be wrong.” -- Dennis Miller

 

To monitor comments posted to this topic, use .

 

http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2007/07...m-is-wrong.html

[Robbobrob]

Never been approached, either at my door, in the park, or online, by Unbelievers.

 

I have, however had pamphlets shoved in my face and/or told I was going to Hell at all the above mentioned locations. A passive website like this one does not constitute a Unbelief Evangelical approach. Nor is arguing against religion in schools or government.

 

Other than a few goofy Pastafarians who dress up as pirates and hand out pamphlets to the street-corner missionaries, I don't think there is some wide ranging movement to put the Word to the streets. Don't even know what word one would choose.

[Lycorth]

Never been approached, either at my door, in the park, or online, by Unbelievers.

 

Ditto. Funny, how non-xians are always accused of trying to ram their "hateful" ideas down everyone's throats, when you rarely, if ever, see them being one fraction as obnoxious as Xian evangelicals?

 

I think the writer of this article needs to quit whining and not tell everyone else what to do. The truth of Xianity isn't spread by people just shutting up and hiding behind rocks whilst Xian fanatics get to scream their heads off; Xianity would not have lost its power in the West were it not for its critics expressing their points of view.

 

Carping like this is behaving more like an annoying preacher who has to tell everyone how to live rather than like someone who has left Xian behavior behind

[mwc]

If there’s one thing worse than an evangelical Christian, it’s an evangelical UNBELIEVER. Someone who insists on preaching the "good news of UN-belief." Sheesh. Will it never end?

Odds are that much of this comes from the same exact place...fear. Fear that if they don't scream that one side will rise to power. I can say I do NOT want fundamentalists rising to power and so if that means I must mean I take up "preaching the 'good news of UN-belief'" as you put it so that does not happen then so be it. I fully concede the point that I am driven by fear on this issue. I can claim that I also have an altruistic agenda, in that I wish to "free" my fellow man, but the truth is I don't wish to be enveloped by religion ever again. If I "save" a few "souls" while I save myself then so much the better. I do not fear the "average" god-follower (whatever that means) and as a result they do basically get the "live and let live" treatment you're advocating. Tit for tat and all that.

 

So, no, it will never end because fundamentalists (on both sides of this issue) are as incompatible as night and day. Of course, I suppose if one side "goes away" then it just might stop but at what cost really? History shows that the religious side simply will not stop their onslaught so "standing down" and offering up "respect" for their ideals is simply not an option...it's suicide.

 

But that would be wrong. In fact, I hope you realize that it would be down right sadistic. Who are we to take away someone's comfort? Going toe-to-toe in debate with people on forums such as this is one thing. We all asked for it. But ambushing friends, family and strangers minding their own business is out of bounds.

 

In general, anti-evangelism is wrong because A) We don’t have the RIGHT to take away someone’s beliefs, and IT DOESN’T WORK ANYWAY!

You are in error.

 

I do not possess the ability to take away someone's beliefs. If I did have that power then the "war" would be won. All I can do, at best, is present information that can cause them to call their beliefs into question. They can likewise do the same to me. It's what freedom of speech is all about. Of course, I don't "assault" them with this. I don't stand on street corners and other places with signs, literature and so forth to bombard them...as they do to me. I do, however, respond in kind, to said attacks. Actually, I usually respond in a much kinder way and usually with more actual information than they ever have offered up to me (admittedly, early on, I was much more angry and I should not have engaged anyone really...but hindsight is usually 20/20 after all).

 

As for it not working, perhaps, and perhaps not. The actual primary target of your "evangelism" may not be moved by what you have to say but those around them just might be. Maybe they won't deconvert but maybe they'll learn that atheists or agnostics (or "other" believers/religions) are good people and they'll back off their crusade? As I hinted above, I don't need to deconvert the world but I would like a world, like you want, that doesn't feel the need to convert me either. This is going to take some time and effort.

 

If, of course, you're doing all of this simply to be an "authority figure" or worse to be "sadistic" then you need to re-evaluate yourself and in more than this one area. Some people had religion used as a way to "torture/punish" them and I imagine rubbing that salt back in the wound of the person who used it against them has a certain therapeutic affect (albeit not a healthy or long lasting one).

 

Do I REALLY need to belabor the point that it is FUNDAMENTALLY wrong to abrogate another’s freedom of choice? It all boils down to the Golden Rule. If YOU don’t want someone telling YOU how to live/what to do, then it sure is hell is wrong for you to force YOUR views down another person’s throat. It doesn’t matter how ill-advised or self-destructive you believe someone is being. So long as their choices don’t infringe upon YOUR life, then we are all obliged to shut the hell up. Case closed. No debate necessary.

Freedom of choice is freedom to know the options. Simply knowing one religion your whole life is nearly enslavement by default. Having another option, if not atheism, but even just another religion, put in front of you IS freedom to make a CHOICE. Forcing someone to listen to these things against their will is wrong, of course, since no one is advocating conversion by sword point (even though that's how this particular religion got their numbers to rise) but if the conversation is only one sided, then why shouldn't you also be able to get your side out once they've had their say? That's how it usually goes and that's one reason for so much anger...particularly in the family scenarios. At that point it's just a lecture.

 

But note that I said "DEFEND my beliefs." If someone wants to start an argument with me then I’ll be more than happy than to assail them with whatever beliefs I have, simultaneously laying assault to THEIR beliefs. What I WON’T do is start a fight with someone in an attempt to “convert them†to my side. I think that is rude. And anyone who does such a thing deserves to get their head handed to them on a platter. I’m a firm believer in “Live and Let Live†and “Mind Your Own Damned Business!†[Present case excepted! I'm giving advice, not challenging your world view.]

The problem with this is people have discovered that if you don't make a little noise you don't get any attention and then you're just going to live what appears to be the status quo. The problem is that people will still work towards their goals while you're sitting still. Civil right and gay rights are two notable examples of this. These groups, by and large, say silently by. Did things get better? Nope. Then they actively resisted (now since I don't wish to go into a very complex set of situations I'm just going to leave it at that since these movements worked in different ways). But things "improved." (In quotes denoting that it wasn't immediate and, again, the differences in the movements). But sitting idle led most people to think that there wasn't an issue at all and those in power did various things to make sure it stayed that way and/or slowly decayed. Sometimes makeing a little noise isn't because you want to tell others how to live but because you want to live better yourself and you want to make sure it stays that way. I don't like that most people in this country (the US) assume that atheists are WORSE than terrorists. I don't like that most people feel you can't be moral without a god. I don't like that most people, if you keep your mouth shut, assume you're like them and that you have their god. I don't and I want them to know that I can be a fine person. Sometimes that means I have to explain things I'd rather not explain. It means making a little noise.

 

Anti-evangelism is doomed to fail and here are several reasons why.

All your reasons are wrong. I was going to go over them one by one but there's no point. Here's why they're wrong. I want you to do a little homework. Go read the church fathers arguments. They are the same arguments against the gods of the day as atheists basically give against the "god" of today. Same thing. The names have all changed but the story is the same. Some people converted and some didn't. Maybe, just maybe, we'll get lucky and avoid the persecutions (we should unless we're forced to worship the state god or die) and someone in power will have enough influence to turn this all around like Constantine did.

 

Now, I don't want it to turn out the same way, with some other thing being forced on the world but just a few friends in power can simply get people to rethink what "god" and religion is all about and maybe that will be enough to create the tolerant atmosphere that allows us to stop (anti-)evangelizing and start living?

 

mwc

[Vigile]

Carping like this is behaving more like an annoying preacher who has to tell everyone how to live rather than like someone who has left Xian behavior behind

 

Ironic that.

[a skeptical believer]

The Best Anti-evangelism is similar to the Best Evangelism…just live an honest and exemplary life.

 

How true....

 

"O, wad some Power the giftie gie us

To see oursels as others see us!"

 

To a Louse - a poem by Robert Burns

[Skankboy]

I don't talk about my beliefs unless asked. But when asked I don't mince words. Just because you believe in the same imaginary friend as alot of other folks, doesn't mean you are somehow entitled to deferrence.

 

I can understand the anti-evangelical sentiment though. It's like when you were born again. All of the sudden, you know the "TRUTH" and you feel like you have to tell everyone so they'll be as happy as you... Unfortunately, this makes you look like a salesman, no matter what your selling.

 

We can only really ever inform, not convince. That has to come from within...

 

IMOHO,

[The Sage Nabooru]

When you first deconvert it was like your conversion in feeling. Because you were converting again - this time to anti-Christianity.

 

We all go through a period in which we are convinced that only our way is tolerable and acceptable, and we refuse to live and let live.

 

My mother has had the same religion her whole life. Sure, that kinda bothers me, but not really, because if it did really bother me then I'd be upset about something that's in someone else's life altogether, and at the very least, she's not risking her life over it. And really, she seems perfectly satisfied with it. Who am I to say "You may no longer be satisfied"?

 

I think we overestimate those descriptions of "brainwashing" and "blindness". The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of adults in the Western World know what atheism and Christianity are, and have the full right and ability to choose between them. Sorry to say, but you are not uniquely gifted in your decision to choose one way or the other after leaving one behind.

 

Do you honestly believe that my mother is completely and utterly ignorant of any other possible belief system? Of course not. The ultimate decision to believe what she does lies with her, and it is not my responsibility - NOR YOURS - to get her to think otherwise. As we've been shown here, it doesn't make any difference, anyway - she is how she is regardless of what we tell her. The decision to convert or stay the same lies within her jurisdiction, and no one else's.

 

And, "presenting another viewpoint" is not saying, "You fucking moron, how could you believe something so retarded? You realize that (in my opinion) everything that you have ever believed in has been disproven and the source of all evil as far as I'm concerned, right? Either think like me or be relegated to the 'Dumbass Who Doesn't Know Jack Shit' pile."

 

Nobody likes anybody who's pushy, even most Christians. If you're in their face, the only impression you will leave on their brains is that you are an immature whiner and bitcher who will not be happy until everybody on Planet Earth does as you say. It doesn't help atheism's public image (or Christianity's public image, for that matter) to be a zealous evangeliser.

[dr_funkenstein]

I can only go on my experience when I say that for me, the reason for me to remain in belief had more to do with what I did not know than what I did. The truths I used to cling to have now shown to be lies and deceit.

 

However, for me it took a major life-shattering episode for my faith to be shaken enough for me to question it and begin to see that the Emperor indeed had no clothes. If any anti-christians came up to me and tried to deconvert me by force of logic, I would have argued until the cows came home.

 

But when I began to question - on my own - websites like ex-christian.net gave me the information I needed to tip the balance from faith to reason. Without them, I don't think I would have ever been able to let go of my old fears.

 

The thing is, some christians who are questioning might not be like me and actively seek out information. Some might be more passive, and I believe anti-evangelism has its place where it can help those individuals who might be open to new ideas but who aren't going to go out of their way to find them.

 

You're not going to change the mind of someone who isn't ready to be changed. But for those who are, bringing the information they need to them might just be what they need to help them out of years suffering, emotional, mental, and of course financial.

[Mankey]

Tyrone Williams:

 

If there’s one thing worse than an evangelical Christian, it’s an evangelical UNBELIEVER. Someone who insists on preaching the "good news of UN-belief." Sheesh. Will it never end?

Appeal to Ridicule. There is no substance in this statement.

 

There must either be something in the water, or something in our genes, but for some reason every human being, at one time or another, believes it is their (forgive me) “god-given” right to tell someone else how to live/what to do. Why do we often believe that WE have the “right answer” for everyone else? Why do we find it so damned difficult to just shut the hell up and leave other people alone? Why do we derive so much carnal satisfaction from assuming the role of Authority Figure in everyone else’s lives? From governments to parents to teachers to best selling authors to comedians to friends to spouses to neighbors to co-workers, everybody seems to get off on being “right” and correcting someone else’s alleged deficiencies.

This is a straw man of the anti-theists or the anti-christians position. We are social animals. We survive and thrive by constantly making adjustments or adapting. Are we prone to errors from time to time? Certainly. However, by reasoning together we can make improvements and avoid hazards. Sometimes, when we discover something new, or discover we are in error our values change due to that discovery. I am open minded because I am fallible. But that does not mean we as human beings are wrong all the time. neither does that take away from the fact that some axioms are inescapably self evident. I hold that morality is both objective and subjective, but that is neither here nor there as ethics is about getting along. Science is about explaining nature. Advancements in both have an impact on both. Both have proven themselves indispensable. What has superstition or dogma to offer that these two can not offer? Religious dogma has nothing to offer here. It sometimes even undermines fair attempts at discovering what is verifyably beneficial or harmful. In order to survive and thrive humans beings must discriminate, and we must try to do so rationally in order to gain any benefit or avoid hazards. Superstition and religious dogmas are a reckless abandonment of reason. A persons beliefs do effect how one discriminates and somewhere down the line that is going to affect someone else. Methods. Methods are important if we want to be fair to all. Superstition is not a method it is delusion.

 

for some reason every human being, at one time or another, believes it is their (forgive me) “god-given” right to tell someone else how to live/what to do.

There is a difference between mere beliefs and a demonstratively working method. Religious beliefs and superstitious beliefs are a reckless abandonment of reason. Superstitious/dogmatic based opinions are not only not helpful, but they sometimes steer us in the wrong direction. A waist of energy. At worst dogma "Truth" undermines humanities advancement as sentient beings and as a species.

And if there weren’t enough know-it-alls roaming the landscape, now added to the list are the newest evangelical busybodies -- the religious unbelievers. Those people who have made a successful break from god-belief and now believe it is their DUTY to convince (force) the “deluded masses” of the error of their ways.

 

To this I cry, “Shenanigans!”

Clearly convince and force are not the same thing. Here you are using weasel words. In the end it is the believer who decides to change their minds....or not. I know of no anti-evangelist who wants to use laws to coerce people into discarding theism. But we do know that some Christian groups that do try that and have had a few successes. The difference between anti-evangelism and religion is that some religions use underhanded tactics in addition to illogic in selling their product. Appeal to force. ( Hell) and Bribes. (Heaven). Superstition has no real product to sell. It is intellectually bankrupt. Anti-evangelist offer Free Thought as their product. Its a hard sell, but some feel that it is worth trying. I wonder what life would be like if no one ever tried to persuade others to new ideas or to demonstrate that something doesn't work and that there is something else that works better despite having limitations? I wonder what the world would look like if no one discriminated at all.. Ever? I have made very bad mistakes in the past, but I plan on being different this time around. But regardless of our mistakes we have never toyed with the idea of using laws to coerce unbelief.

Religion has and does. Maybe some religious folks won't be so quick to push their bogus product in politics, science, medicine...if they see that some people are actively woking to undermine peoples faith by showing the unreasonableness of the belief itself. Your complaint here is baseless.

[Mankey]

[i recognize the delicious irony of my telling people that THEY are “wrong,” in a hit piece admonishing people to “mind your own business!” But it just can’t be helped. Simply take solace in that this is just an informative rant, and you are under no obligation to agree with what I say here. I’m not speaking as any Authority Figure. Just someone with a salient point of view. Okay?]

 

Now, before I begin casting my stones, let it be known that I also shared in this particular “sin.” I’m as guilty as the next impertinent a-hole who dared to stick his nose where it wasn’t wanted. So I KNOW whereof I speak. Back when I was a new atheist I considered it my Duty to de-convert all and sundry. I wrote many hostile anti-Christian diatribes and formulated many plans for my Atheist Evangelical Crusades. I even called myself an “Evangelical Atheist.” Fortunately none of my plans ever saw the light of day. By spending time on these forums, and others like this one, I was humbled to confess the error of my ways. A few people (Christians and Ex-C) correctly beat it into my thick skull that ANTI-evangelism is equally as wrong and as offensive as it’s counterpart.

Yet you have never discussed these things at anti-theist boards? Am I correct in assuming? Keep in mind too that anti-theism is not a monolith. Anti-theists differ in how to approach things.

The reason that I’m re-visiting this subject is that it appears that the lesson must be taught anew to the newly “born-again” unbelievers. I’m seeing a resurgence of people who wish to perform door-to-door anti-evangelism, begin forum wars with Christians or engage in e-mail debates with family and friends, just to delight in telling them how “wrong” they are for believing. Not cool, people. Not cool.

Door to door? People need at least one place to be comfortable. The home is sacred ground in my honest opinion. As far as debates with Christians and superstitionist's in general..if they say they are not interested in defending their beliefs rationally then the only thing to do is let them be. But there is nothing wrong with giving them the option of discussing or debating a non-believer. However, if they are going to discriminate based on superstition and it involves me or others who do not share their delusion...well that is an entirely different matter...

 

Your zeal is commendable, but misplaced. Rather than labor fruitlessly to free those who resent your efforts, you should simply enjoy your new lease on life.

Not everyone is cut out to be an anti-theist. And no one should have to be one. Free Thought does not necessarily demand it really as far as I can tell. But if you are going to try to knock anti-theism it might help to really understand that anti-theism is not a monolith. Different anti-theists practice different styles. My kungfu is not the same as a lot of other anti-theists. There is a time and place for everything and clearly some times it is rational to pick your battles wisely as well as knowing when is a good time. Some people are too close minded to bother with..but not every believer is. Otherwise how do you explain the existence of atheist apostates?

 

I KNOW how much it hurts you to witness those you love “throwing their lives away in this foolish pursuit.” I KNOW how badly you want to shake some sense into them. You want to take them through their religion and brick by brick tear down it’s foundation. You want to strap them down, a la A Clockwork Orange, and force them to watch Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris videos until they see the light, hallelujah! And having done these things, you imagine that you will be congratulated or applauded for “rescuing them” from their enslavement.

Do not presume to speak for other anti-theists. Don't presume to understand everyones motivations. It is not a monolith. This is merely another appeal to ridicule. Even if you disagree with Dawkins or Harris, their concerns are not entirely unreasonable. But superstition is unreasonable and unnecessary.

 

But that would be wrong. In fact, I hope you realize that it would be down right sadistic. Who are we to take away someone's comfort? Going toe-to-toe in debate with people on forums such as this is one thing. We all asked for it. But ambushing friends, family and strangers minding their own business is out of bounds.

Not if we have a real product to sell. People benefit from new ideas. People benefit from really considering their beliefs rationaly. It is how humanity survives and thrives. It is a special plead to draw a line between this and other things like politics, consumerism, economics, etc..

I see no reason why they should not be presented with an opportunity, by brining it up.

 

In general, anti-evangelism is wrong because A) We don’t have the RIGHT to take away someone’s beliefs, and cool.gif IT DOESN’T WORK ANYWAY!

Watch the caps there feller. I can easily read without them. I won't miss your points I promise.

It is the believer who in the end decides...and it does work sometimes....otherwise....how do you account for all of the atheist apostates out there? Not everyone came to unbelief in the same way that you or I did.

Religious beliefs aside, people of all ages, creeds, sex, races, politics, etc. have ALWAYS believed something “stupid” (i.e. something someone doesn’t agree with). And as I said earlier, there seems to be a never-ending procession of self-appointed Authority Figures lining up to correct/control these “errant thinkers.”

This a sweeping generalization. It is a straw man as well. Its also "Tu QuoQue" Just because someone else has a stupid idea does not justify my having a stupid idea. I try to not have stupid ideas and I am open minded to being in error...unlike many religionists when it comes to their superstitions and dogmas. We are stuck with reasoning together. We are stuck with constantly making adjustments and adapting until we get things right or workable, despite the fact that everything we come up with has some errors and limitations. There is only one fair way to discriminate and it isn't through religious dogma or superstition. Them's the facts buster.

 

Passing laws to discourage people from being theists is not justifiable for pragmatic reasons. A strong foundation is one where we intellectually acknowledge certain things rather than just obeying. I really don't know of many anti-theists who are militant. What some religious groups are doing is militant. You really can't compare anti-theism with religion in the way you are trying.

[Mankey]

Do I REALLY need to belabor the point that it is FUNDAMENTALLY wrong to abrogate another’s freedom of choice?

You are using weasel words here. A person always has a choice even after having heard someone elses point of view. Sometimes there are things that I just really never think of until someone brings it up or reminds me. I have changed my point of view thanks to people talking about different things.

It all boils down to the Golden Rule. If YOU don’t want someone telling YOU how to live/what to do, then it sure is hell is wrong for you to force YOUR views down another person’s throat. It doesn’t matter how ill-advised or self-destructive you believe someone is being. So long as their choices don’t infringe upon YOUR life, then we are all obliged to shut the hell up. Case closed. No debate necessary.

As a Free Thinker I am following the Golden Rule by giving my point of view, whether I bring it up, or someone else does it instead. The word force is a weasel word. In the end it is the believer who decides. We can not make them believe anything if they are close minded or if we offer poor arguments. If they do not wish to rationally defend their delusions then there is no point in going any further with that person. Using logic is not "force". If they can't defend their delusion then they can't defend it and they are certainly entitled to keep their belief. Can you see that anti-theism is not a monolith? Also, if an individual does not push their beliefs on others, but does persuade some one else to embrace their delusion, what guarantee do we have that the new convert won't see things different at a later date and become militant? There is no such guarantee. There is nothing wrong with peacefully talking about these things and trying to change another persons mind...especially when superstition is a bogus product that allows others to narrowmindedly discriminate against people places and things. Religion deserves no free pass. It deserves no special protection in the market place of ideas.

 

Case closed. No debate necessary.

Your narrowmindedness shows that your complaints are a projection of your own brand of fundyism.

No one is saying that you aren’t entitled to your opinions. Nor that you must hide what you believe, or not defend your beliefs. Not at all. I happen to be one of THE Most Strongly Opinionated curmudgeons this side of the Antares Maelstrom, and I will defend my beliefs with every nefarious weapon in my considerable mental arsenal.

You have done poorly in this case.

But note that I said "DEFEND my beliefs." If someone wants to start an argument with me then I’ll be more than happy than to assail them with whatever beliefs I have, simultaneously laying assault to THEIR beliefs. What I WON’T do is start a fight with someone in an attempt to “convert them” to my side. I think that is rude.

You are strawmanning some anti-theists here. Not everyone chases people around until they submit. This is not in any way an argument against anti-theism. Who decides what is rude or not? Let each individual decide that for themselves when they are presented the opportunity to hear the views of an anti-theist. It is not your call it is the individuals call. Not only that but this "I think its rude" business is a fallacious appeal to "normality" and or tradition. Nothing more.

And anyone who does such a thing deserves to get their head handed to them on a platter. I’m a firm believer in “Live and Let Live” and “Mind Your Own Damned Business!” [Present case excepted! I'm giving advice, not challenging your world view.]

Given that your opinions are riddled with logical fallacies and inconsistencies you are hardly one in the right state of mind to dispense punishment in this one case.

Aside from any necessary defenses, I believe that it is the height of decency and good manners just to ignore people’s religious foibles. Don’t get your knickers in a twist every time someone casually says something religious. It’s not a Call To Arms. They’re just words. Don’t be such a prickly pear. If mom and grandma think their prayers are doing YOU some good, then how does this harm you? Let them have their pacifier. Humor them and politely change the subject.

I see nothing wrong with this. But I also see nothing wrong with offering your views on such delusions. As far as messing with the elderly...even I can't do such a thing. Its probably too late for them and even if they could be persuaded...do they have enough time left to adjust? I just can't mess with old folks. Do you see that anti-theism is not a monolith?

Besides, you won’t change their minds anyway.

Probably not, but you never know. Still, chasing people around after they make it clear that they are not interested is a waste of time and energy. Plenty of fence setters to talk to. Some religionists come to a point where they are fence setters. Its really best to continue with people who are open minded. My honest opinion.

Anti-evangelism is doomed to fail and here are several reasons why

You do not even really know what you are talking about in regards anti-evangelism. Its not a monolith. There are many different approaches.

[Mankey]

1. Religious people (just like everyone else) believe that THEY are right, and YOU are wrong. Everyone believes that THEY have done ALL the requisite thinking/research enough to have made an “informed decision”, and your gnat’s buzzing will simply be viewed as “sour grapes” from the undereducated. Simply stated -- they’re NOT going to listen to you. Talk/write ALL you want, but you’re preaching to the Unconvertable. They may humor you, but rest assured your words are being filed in the Circular File Cabinet. [We do the same thing to them.]

This is very probable, but each individual deserves a chance to hear the views of an anti-theist. If they are close minded then they are close minded. Unbelievers are a minority...but if we can become a bigger minority them that is good. An individual deserves the opportunity. How do you account for atheist apostates?

 

Not everyone has the right personality to be an anti-theist and should do what they need to do to remain happy in life.

2. Faith trumps Reason everyday and twice on Sunday. No matter what Reason you trot out -- no matter how many contradictions you find, no matter how many errors, no matter how well you can dismantle their doctrine -- the Theist will ALWAYS find refuge in their Faith. God has given them Faith to believe, while denying it to you. (Poor soul.) It sucks to be you, with your hardened heart.

This statement is fallacious when you use words like "everyday" "No matter what" "ALWAYS".

This is very probable, but each individual deserves a chance to hear the views of an anti-theist. If they are close minded then they are close minded. Unbelievers are a minority...but if we can become a bigger minority them that is good. An individual deserves the opportunity. How do you account for atheist apostates?

3. Your “attack” against their Faith will ALWAYS be viewed as “panic fire”, AND it will justify and cement their belief. The more you lash out at religion, the more it will be seen as someone who is “afraid of God”, or “angry at God.” Trust me -- you can’t win by going on the offensive with religion. They’ll perceive it as “persecution” and you’ll only strengthen their Faith. The best thing to do is just humor them and live your life in peace. That ALWAYS confuses the hell out of them.

This statement is fallacious when you use words like "ALWAYS".

 

This is very probable, but each individual deserves a chance to hear the views of an anti-theist. If they are close minded then they are close minded. Unbelievers are a minority...but if we can become a bigger minority them that is good. An individual deserves the opportunaty. How do you account for atheist apostates? Inoculating the open minded religionists might help greatly for a better future. If your not up to it no one has the right to twist your arm. Life is short. Do your thing man. Be happy.

 

4. They can’t AFFORD to be wrong. After many years of convincing themselves to believe, and investing their LIVES in this thing, the theist can’t now afford to admit that they’re wrong! You don’t really expect someone who has claimed Faith for 80 years to just drop it all after a few clever words from you, do you? Decades of egg on the face doesn’t wash off that easily.

You can't speak for every religionists. How do you asccount for ex-pastors, ex-priests.....

Think back to how difficult it was for YOU to let go of your faith. The Most Difficult Thing To Do was to admit that you were wrong. That you’d been suckered for a fool. Confessing to being wrong is hard enough, but admitting that you’d wasted years and resources to a huge and now OBVIOUS con? That goes against every screaming, self-defensive nerve ending in your body.

Here you refute your own point. You used to believe. You had a lot invested and now you don't believe. Nothing for the ones who remain close minded, but not all will be close minded.

5. Which brings me to my final reason for believing anti-evangelism to be wrong. People are seldom (if ever) convinced of their mistakes via external pressure. The revelation MUST come from within. The more you press from without, the MORE they resist your “attacks.” Just out of spite or embarrassment.

Sorry but you can not speak for all religionists. What you say may be very likely but not all will respond this way. Give your view and arguments if they wil hear it and if they are not persuaded move on. Its that simple. Who are you to define what anti-theism is? Who are you to claim that anti-theism is this approach or that approach? It is not a monolith. We do not represent atheism. Atheism does not require one to be anti-theist and neither does Free Thought.

Remember how it was with you? I remember how it was with me. For the short time that I was a Christian NOBODY could have convinced me that I was wrong, and for all the previous reasons listed. I was only capable of escaping when I doubted, questioned and REASONED myself out of the faith. Had anyone poked and prodded me I probably would have gone running back to the church, fearing a “trap of the devil.” People MUST be allowed to make their own decisions/mistakes. Not only is this their Right, but in that way they can be certain that they weren’t tricked by some smooth talking “devil.” If they suspected for a moment that you tricked them into unbelief, then they’ll be back on their knees to god, begging forgiveness, faster than you can say “Rosary beads.”

This is a straw man of some anti-theist approaches to theism. I can see you have not really given this enough thought. You are just tired. Can't say I blame you. For some apostates, interacting with atheists played its part. People are different and respond differently. It is not beneficial to shield yourself or others from different points of view. Some people have become apostate through debates with atheists. Some. Who are you to discourage others from giving a theist the opportunity by bringing it up? Who the hell are you?

 

Certainly not in the spirit of Free Thought.

Not to mention the fact that I wouldn't WANT to be responsible for causing someone to "lose their faith." People are left in a fragile and vulnerable state after that. Are you going to be around 24/7 to nursemaid them through all their doubts and recriminations? I'm not.

Yet you and I have adjusted. Also, I notice that Ex-C helps people adjust after having lost faith. People are finding their way in life with the input of other apostates. There are a few other such boards and groups that offer support to those who have shed all superstition. I also, notice that some folks are happy that they are free from all that rot.

People are much better equipped to accept their new reality IF they labor through the stages on their own.

I benefited greatly from the input of other apostates. But your right it might take some work to adjust for some but this is not always a problem for all apostates that takes long to get through.

The Best Anti-evangelism is similar to the Best Evangelism…just live an honest and exemplary life. Be “salt and light” and SHOW them what “fruit” you have. If they're curious they'll begin doubting, asking questions and making informed decisions. Arm twisting and propaganda pieces are coercive tactics and they stink.

I am an anti-theist, but I feel that this takes priority over any other activism. Still we are free to at least offer our views. There is nothing wrong with that in many cases. Propaganda? Arm twisting? These words you use could be your own propaganda. How do we distinguish between propaganda and a reasoned concern that is derived from history as well as the present? I guess we will never know as you really don't explain that here.

[Mankey]

So there you have it. Why I believe anti-evangelism is both wrong and doomed to failure.

You haven't given it enough thought. I agree with some of your reasoning but not everything. Not most of it, but some of it.

Now, I’m not naive. I know that some of you haven’t been convinced and feel totally justified in taking the battle to THEM. That’s your right. But before you go off half-cocked, picking fights where once their was none, ask yourself these questions…Is THIS the hill you want to die on? Is ruffling feathers and getting friends and family members’ noses out of joint REALLY worth this dubious “cause” of yours? Having dropped one fundamentalist habit, do you really want to take up another? Besides, you’re unlikely to convince anyone that you're right, AND you’re more likely to strain your relationships.

Agreed. To chase people around until they submit is a waste of time and energy and needlessly painful. However if they decide to discriminate against people, places and things based on their superstitious delusions then people have the right to mock their ridiculous beliefs. I think we need more people who do this when it is warranted. That way they might be less likely to push their delusions on others. When we discriminate we must try to use the best methods in order to be fair to all. Superstition is not a fair method. Its not a method at all. It is discrimination based on wishful/magical thinking.

I’m not saying you can’t be openly unbelieving. Just stop acting like a fundamentalist unbeliever. Stop trying to live everyone’s lives for them and mind your own business.

Stop straw manning anti-theism. Its obvious you have not talked to many other anti-theists.

Fortune cookie say, “He who sticks his nose in other people’s business is apt to lose his sense of smell.”

It is a special plead to arbitrarily draw the line between superstitious beliefs and other things that people believe when it comes to activism. Superstition deserves no free pass. It should be treated just like anything else is. Questioned and talked about.

 

It seems to me that you are allergic to logic -which explains your lack of smell for your own bullshit. You have more certitude than I on this topic. I can always change my mind when presented with someone else's input. But we have to try and be fair in our methods of discrimination. Reason together.

So put down your Skeptics Annotated Bible.

I have found some mistakes in the S.A.B. that are not contradictions...

Amp down the volume and rage on your anti-apologetics web sites. Stop e-mailing your friends, family and your old pastor to pick a fight over their religious mania, and start smelling the roses, instead of smelling a rat.

This is a straw man of some anti-theist approaches to theism. I can see you have not really given this enough thought. You are just tired. Can't say I blame you. For some apostates, interacting with atheists played its part. People are different and respond differently. It is not beneficial to shield yourself or others from different points of view. Some people have become apostate through debates with atheists. Some. Who are you to discourage others from giving a theist the opportunity by bringing it up? Who the hell are you?

 

Certainly not in the spirit of Free Thought.

It may well be rotten in Vatican City, but unless you’re a resident it doesn’t concern you.

It does so long as religion puts its ignorant nose into politics. It does when we are unfairly discriminated against. It does when the government and religion would fight against logic and critical thinking being mandatory in schools. Just as it is our business when science is being attacked by superstitious delusion. You do realize that medicine has benefited greatly from evolutionary theory right?

Take that Golgotha-sized chip off of your shoulder and just relax in your newly won freedom from religious tyranny, alright?

We can enjoy it for as long as freedom lasts. It is not wrong to point out possible loss of it in the future. Inductive reasoning is not 100% but it can be useful in avoiding potential hazards. I think it would be a good thing if the number of voting unbelievers became a large minority. To keep the religionists in check. Superstition is not a necessity and it can at times cause harm or cause some negative effect....unfairly. It is harder to correct errors if your delusion clouds your thinking....even so...it is not impossible. I admit that. All I am saying is that the best methods is what can bring us all on the same page in a way that is fair. It takes reason to determine what is fair and what is not. Superstition can undermine fairness sometimes.

We’ve got more than enough would be dictators telling everyone ELSE what to do.

This is a straw man and an ad hom.

There is only one fair method in discriminating. My conclusions may be total bullshit or partially bullshit, but so long as I try to use logic and other methods that are reason based they deserve more respect than a mere opinion from a person who does not try to use these methods. I see no real points against anti-theism in your statements here. Plus, no one can speak for all anti-theists.

We don’t need you adding to the signal-to-noise ratio, further confusing the picture so that no one can tell the apologists from the apostates.

Its really easy to tell an anti-evangelical from an apologist. Its in the methods. Heaven and hell are untestable and are mere scare/bribe tactics to garner obedience or belief. The apologists methods are intellectually bankrupt. Thats the difference. They are selling a bogus product. It is that simple.

 

I as an anti-theist do not speak for atheism or other apostates. Free Thought. Atheism. Apostasy- is not a monolith and you owe no explanation for my views to those who believe. NONE. My views are my own. You complaints lack any real substance and are riddled with errors and inconsistencies.

 

If the webmaster should decide that my views on Tyrone Williams statements are not appropriate here at Ex-C, I will kindly keep my opinions to myself about anti-theism even if it is brought up by someone else.

 

I will always support Ex-Christian.net and all apostates regardless of their beliefs. I can do that and be an anti-theist at the same time believe it or not. Holding an anti-theist position should not make me the boogey man.