Struggling To Be Nice

[Spoomonkey]

I’ll admit – there is bitterness. I think that is a legitimate emotion to feel when one has been duped for some many years. I could rant for days and on some level, probably need to. But to be honest, I don’t want to.

 

I feel like my anger at religion and God is almost an obsession. I want to shake it and simply accept what I have now as better than what I had before (talk about REAL peace that passes understanding!!!). But it is constantly around me – constantly confronting me – and quite frankly, I have no experience being a “non-traditional” in a very traditional world.

 

My family does not understand me, but they never really have. I have always been the one who marched to the beat of my own drummer. When I was in ministry, they were in crack houses. Now that they are going into ministry, I am exploring paganism and swing clubs (sexual freedom). Go figure… Funny how the pendulum sways…

 

I was recently confronted (gently and somewhat respectfully, even with a bit of condescension in the under tone) by my father about my religious choices. I sat there, quietly, knowing that even with my lack of material knowledge (even in the ministry and through Bible college, I wasn’t a chapter and verse guy. I’ve always been more philosophical than concrete.) I could have challenged almost everything he was saying (except for his personal experience – I would never challenge anyone on that). I wanted to be respectful, but at the same time I wanted him to understand that his assumptions about me were incorrect. This wasn’t just “an issue of the flesh” and I wasn’t just “following my lusts” (for those keeping score, my new found sexual freedom has nothing to do with my choices and – quite frankly – reconcile quite nicely with a literal reading of the Old Testament. I should say, he only knows about it through rumor and gossip, which I remind him is against his religion ). He warned me that my children would be influenced by my decisions and I wanted to tell him that I hoped so. I hope they don't struggle with the shame and self-loathing that Christianity requires of its "true believers".

 

But, instead, I struggled to stay quiet, polite, nice…

 

I just don’t want religion to destroy what little relationship I have with him. And, I abhor evangelism – even of an atheistic sort. So, I sat quietly and let him talk about something that – right now – is more important to him than it is to me.

 

He gave me a book which I promised to read. I am very sorry that I promised to read it honestly. Because it is the same old crap – wrapped in arrogance and straw men – just the same old piece of “our way of kissing god’s ass is better than your way.” And I really, really want to just put something out there…

 

I don’t know – a blog on MySpace or something. Nothing heavy or berating religion (my brothers and sisters are all new to faith and it has helped give them something to cling to – and I can’t in good conscience take that away from them). Just something that says, “This is where I am, please let me be here.”

 

I have read a couple of threads here, and I can relate to a lot of it. But, honestly, it seems like many are more confrontational than I want to be. I respect that, but I am not comfortable with it for my situation. But still – I could use some advice here. How can I just simply get them to accept me for me – and not constantly slip in their religious stuff? I am fine with bowing my head at family meals with them. I don’t see every little thing as an attempt to “re-convert” me as some sort of personal insult – but the back porch conversations and the lectures (however respectful they may be) are things I just don’t want to have to sit through anymore.

 

And I do want to be free to express myself – I would love to put up a family webpage that talks about what my wife and I are doing with our lives (obviously, it would include some of our “horrible, new age, pagan” ideas when we share about how we are using Feng Shui in our decorating – ). Has anyone had any luck – and can offer any advice on how to make a peaceful transition?

 

For what its worth, I consider myself atheistic in the sense that I do not believe in a personally involved god. I do believe in something natural (not really super natural since it is simply a part of nature that has always been) and tend to be drawn towards pagan (specifically Asatru) ideas.

 

Anyway – any advice on how to be an ex-Christian and still be nice would be extremely helpful.

 

Spoomonkey

[mwc]

I have read a couple of threads here, and I can relate to a lot of it. But, honestly, it seems like many are more confrontational than I want to be. I respect that, but I am not comfortable with it for my situation. But still – I could use some advice here. How can I just simply get them to accept me for me – and not constantly slip in their religious stuff? I am fine with bowing my head at family meals with them. I don’t see every little thing as an attempt to “re-convert” me as some sort of personal insult – but the back porch conversations and the lectures (however respectful they may be) are things I just don’t want to have to sit through anymore.

See the part I highlighted? That's the part that is causing you your problems from what I can see. You cannot get them to do anything. Nothing you do will get a response on their end. So being nice could "work" or being "mean" could too...or they could simply "backfire." Does that make sense? Your changes will not necessarily cause them to change. Your respect towards them will not cause them to give it in return. You should live in a way that makes you feel good inside (meaning be true to yourself) and hopefully they will come to honor that person.

 

With all that said you might need to simply draw some boundaries, with can be seen as "mean" or "rude," at first, but it's your right.

 

Anyway – any advice on how to be an ex-Christian and still be nice would be extremely helpful.

I'm sure you meant it differently but just in case you didn't please don't confuse assertive with not being "nice."

 

mwc

[Spoomonkey]

You should live in a way that makes you feel good inside (meaning be true to yourself) and hopefully they will come to honor that person.

 

This is obviously great advice - and advice I need to hear. It is difficult and down right sucky to spend time with my family not being myself. It is actually exhausting and really took a toll on my vacation. Thanks for this...

 

I'm sure you meant it differently but just in case you didn't please don't confuse assertive with not being "nice."

 

I have read a number of rather mean approaches to family and friends here. I wouldn't call some of them assertive at all. In fact, I have wondered a number of times if it was simply impossible to be respectful and kind to my family after reading a few of the threads here.

 

I am sure this is not the way others are - but I am not under any grips of confusion. There are certainly plenty of intelligent and well spoken folk around here who can explain their thoughts and positions eloquently and gracefully. But "nice" is not always an applicable generalization It is, however, a very important position for me to hold.

 

Again - your advice is excellent and gets right to the heart of the matter.

 

Spoomonkey

[Vigile]

Hi Spoomonkey, thanks for the post. I enjoy your writing style. There is a lot of nuance that comes through that is quite refreshing.

 

I wasn’t a chapter and verse guy

 

And perhaps this is why I relate so well to your post. I to am satisfied to gather a big picture view and avoid memorizing details that are readily available via a simple Google search.

 

But, honestly, it seems like many are more confrontational than I want to be. I respect that, but I am not comfortable with it for my situation. But still – I could use some advice here. How can I just simply get them to accept me for me – and not constantly slip in their religious stuff?

 

I hear what you are saying. I actually like some of the confrontation I've seen here, but I wouldn't think of being so confrontational with my loved ones (friends and family) over their beliefs. It's nice to see people pull no punches and put everything out there on the internet forum, but though I disrespect the beliefs of my loved ones, I don't disrespect them as people and don't need the added dynamic of a religious feud in our relationship. Luckily over the years they have backed off. Perhaps that is because they know I have a strong personality and am willing to stand up when challenged; I don't know. Hopefully your family will move to the final stage of grief, acceptance, and then move on. The constant dropping of hints can surely get irritating.

[mwc]

This is obviously great advice - and advice I need to hear. It is difficult and down right sucky to spend time with my family not being myself. It is actually exhausting and really took a toll on my vacation. Thanks for this...

You're most welcome. It's surprising how draining pretending can be.

 

I have read a number of rather mean approaches to family and friends here. I wouldn't call some of them assertive at all. In fact, I have wondered a number of times if it was simply impossible to be respectful and kind to my family after reading a few of the threads here.

I understand a bit better now. Unfortunately, different families require different methods. Some people were basically tortured using this religion and they are responding in kind but that doesn't mean you'll need to go to that sort of extreme when dealing with your family. Some people just have relatives that don't understand anything less than that type of treatment it seems. Reasoning with them and setting boundaries doesn't appear to be options as much as they'd like it to be.

 

I am sure this is not the way others are - but I am not under any grips of confusion. There are certainly plenty of intelligent and well spoken folk around here who can explain their thoughts and positions eloquently and gracefully. But "nice" is not always an applicable generalization It is, however, a very important position for me to hold.

Well, if you're going to be nice then just remember that you have the ability to decide what to talk about in your life and what not to talk about. When the subject of religion comes up then nice thing to do is to decline to discuss it and move onto something else. This is usually the easiest way to avoid the conflict. It's least satisfying if you wish to share your personal belief, of course, but that's the price the to be paid. If they won't change the subject then you can explain the reason you wish to change the subject and see if they'll respect it or just leave the area.

 

mwc

[NearlyInsane]

It is difficult and down right sucky to spend time with my family not being myself. It is actually exhausting and really took a toll on my vacation.

Too true. Which is why I became more and more confrontational w/ my family in the first few years after I became an atheist. That phase didn't last more than a year or so (if I remember correctly), because even the most dogged of them (my brother, who actually opened a dialogue w/ me over email in which he attempted to argue me back into his beliefs with virtually no knowledge of just what it was he was trying to convince me of) eventually grew tired of my intellectual assault & gave up. Now we have an unspoken cease-fire most of the time, in which none of us bring up issues we completely disagree on. If someone breaks the cease-fire, there will be a short barrage, but they always give up & hunker back down behind their barricades of "lalala-I-can't-hear-you-lalala" heh...

 

In fact, I have wondered a number of times if it was simply impossible to be respectful and kind to my family after reading a few of the threads here.

That depends on what you want, & on how your family reacts to you. If you want your family to respect your choices, it'll probably never happen without some kind of dialogue - a dialogue that will probably be difficult, emotional, often hurtful, painful, etc.

 

Setting boundaries is indeed very important to your emotional well being. For myself, the only way I've had of enforcing the boundaries I set was to hang up the phone, leave their house, etc., if my mom (she's the only one who still tries to manipulate me) went too far. Fortunately I haven't had to do that often - she got the message that she has to respect those boundaries if she wants to continue to have a relationship with me & my daughter. Fortunately she does. But then I also have an advantage there - my daughter is my parents' only grandchild.

 

I have also earned a certain amount of respect for my beliefs by doing what I was taught to do as a xtian: let my actions do the talking. Whenever the subject came up w/ my family, I've not been shy about pointing out that I live and have lived in what I consider a much more admirable way than most xtians I've known & met over the years. I am as honest as is prudent - which is touchy for an atheist surrounded by religious fanatics, but I don't lie, don't steal, don't take advantage of people, as many religious zealots will do using the excuse that they are somehow due a "discount" in life because they are "persecuted" for their religious beliefs. Of course the reality that I know is that it is the non-xtians in this country who are persecuted, but I deal as fairly as possible w/ my fellow humans, and try to be kind rather than bitter. I find that much easier to do as an ex-tian than a x-tian (will wonders never cease?).

 

As for differences on things they consider immoral or sinful due only to their religious teachings, if they insist on talking about it I will debate them about the right/wrongness of it. The bottom line for me is that I grew up w/ a strong sense of right/wrong & justice in a world where most of the supposedly "good" people were constantly trying to bend the lines to make whatever they're doing OK somehow. My sense of right & wrong comes from my core being, & was enforced by how my parents raised me, so it's very difficult for them to argue effectively against me about such things. Especially since my dad, who is the most intelligent & sane of my immediate family, is somewhat inclined to agree with me on many of these points. My mom, who shut her brain down many years ago due to fear of thinking leading to hell (an idea she tried desperately to instill in me), cannot effectively argue with me about ANYTHING anymore. Decades of refusing to think about anything deeply have reduced her mental/emotional capacity to a somewhat childlike state. Which is extremely sad, because she is... or was... extremely intelligent. (Valedictorian of her Jr. College, masters degree, etc.) But the bottom line is that we all really share the same "core values". If I disagree on certain things, like sex outside of marriage, I have plenty of reasons for my differences. And honestly, my parents don't often bring these topics up, because they really don't want to think about it, much less talk about it. But it has taken many years to develop this new relationship with them.

 

In the early years, I simply stayed away from them as much as possible. In the end, it was necessary to engage in debate with them over my beliefs in order to convince them that I wasn't simply "rebelling," or "angry with god," that I had good reason for my beliefs, and that I was still a "good person."

 

Just feel your way along, & don't be in any hurry for the perfect relationship to form, because it's not going to happen. It takes years to rewrite our relationships with family, & for them to accept a completely new belief-system & lifestyle from one of its members. They too have to see how it plays out. If you end up in a crack-house, for example, they won't be too impressed w/ your new beliefs, lol.