NearlyInsane Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 I've been an ex-tian for many years now, & have basically trained my family to avoid the topic of religion in my presence (basically they're afraid of what I will say). As a result, I really haven't had much trouble at all dealing with religion/religious people in the last few years. I was still somewhat bothered by being constantly surrounded by religious people & having few allies, but after a few years of arguing religion on messageboards & occasionally IRL, I grew more confident in my beliefs & less hesitant about letting people know where I stand. In short, I had been dealing with things rather well & hadn't been triggered to revisit the horror of my childhood religious abuse for years. Then my boyfriend hammered me with a discussion he should've known not to have, but he obviously just doesn't get it & now I'm stuck wondering if I can have this kind of relationship with him. These wounds that I had felt almost completely healed, were ripped open in a way I hadn't realized was still possible. It's frightening to know that I still have such an achilles heel. The problem is that my bf was raised in the most open, mellow, accepting, & non-judgemental religious environment, that he can't even contemplate how religion can actually hurt people. Even having heard my story many times, he still doesn't get it, & doesn't seem to want to. I think the very idea is so appalling to him that he subconsciously wants to reject it outright. He gets very emotional when the subject comes up, and it hurts me because I'M the one with this sticky black stuff inside me because of what I went through as a child. But HE's upset about what I'm saying about religion. Let me backtrack a bit. These discussions are very rare, and always come about by his wanting to share a wonderful experience he's had with me, which is a big part of our relationship - we both love to discuss psychology, philosophy, anything & everything. We both love to ponder things most people wouldn't think worth pondering, & we love to discuss, debate, argue, & make each other think from continuously different perspectives. And in that vein I should explain that my preference for the term atheist over agnostic is more an expression of how opposed I am to organized religion than my opposition to the idea of any kind of spirituality. And this is the thread that we share, as he does not at all look at the bible as the word of god, or even as instructions on how to live. It's just a book to him. So much so that it's difficult for me to understand how he can consider himself to be an xtian - to put himself in the same category with what I consider to be freaks. So when he wants to share a lovely experience he's had, he's not trying to be insensitive or hurtful - he seems to forget that I have a serious problem with this stuff. I don't know how to explain it to him, in a way where he'll really understand. I've never run in to anyone who's had such a hard time w/ this concept - other than the zealots, of course... Thus I find myself back licking my wounds & roaming the ex-tian boards looking for comfort from the only people who can ever truly understand. Damn... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llwellyn Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 I'm trying to understand your situation... Does your boyfriend think of himself as a Christian? Does he believe in the Divinity of Christ? Does he believe in the Biblical teaching about God's wrath? The problem with even mild, benign Christianity, is that it is a Trojan Horse for all of the toxic aspects. Liberal Christians sometimes "become serious about their faith" and come to believe the other aspects of the religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NearlyInsane Posted July 26, 2007 Author Share Posted July 26, 2007 I'm trying to understand your situation... Does your boyfriend think of himself as a Christian? Does he believe in the Divinity of Christ? Does he believe in the Biblical teaching about God's wrath? Yes, no, & no. He really doesn't believe there's anything "holy" about the bible, but that's why he doesn't understand how it can be used to hurt people. His reaction is simply, "Anyone who believes that is a moron." Well, yeah, but it's what most xtian churches in the US teach/preach. Liberal Christians sometimes "become serious about their faith" and come to believe the other aspects of the religion. Believe me, I know. My EX-husband went from completely non-religious to raving fundy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llwellyn Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 Certain Christians grow up never hearing from their parents that they are "sinners" and that "God's wrath" is real. They are never explained the theory that Jesus suffered an execution that God metes out as a retribution for human crime. In other words, they never hear the kinds of grim doctrines that cause grief to us. Other Christians have heard these things, but they just don't have our sensitive natures and aren't very affected by ideas. Thus, they can be very comfortable and have a sense of well-being even as they believe the things that drive us to misery and anxiety. My father, for example, is like composed with a psychology of steel because he can hold ideas in his head, that would tear my mind to shreds. There are Christians that are disturbed by aspects of Christian theology, but, as long as they still self-identify as Christians and believe in Christ's divinity, this is kind of like a minor nagging problem and not a severe trouble. They don't like the theology, but still, they draw some comfort from the idea that, however cruel the Christian God is, they will not suffer his vengeance. They may not even believe in the full Biblical doctrine of God's "justice," but still, it is nice for them to know that, in case it is true, the Christian God will forgive them. It is not until a person swears off Christianity and gets out from its umbrella that the full horror of the religion comes home to the person. Now, unlike before, we are the ones who are spoken to by the Biblical promises of God's hatred and curses. Before as Christians, the idea of hell was somewhat bothersome, it was an academic issue because we thought that it would be experienced by other people and not us. Now, the Christian thought system turns on us. So, I think there are a lot of reasons why you find yourself more threatened and harmed by the religion than he does. I have a real problem with influencing someone to leave their religion, but have you ever asked him why he gives himself the label "Christian" if he believes none of the particulars of the religion? Wouldn't you prefer it if he weren't a Christian? Yet, I would personally feel unhappy about "deconverting" my special someone (if I had one). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NearlyInsane Posted July 26, 2007 Author Share Posted July 26, 2007 So, I think there are a lot of reasons why you find yourself more threatened and harmed by the religion than he does. Yeah, like perhaps the years of being suicidal but being afraid to kill myself because I was convinced I was going to hell, yet I had very nearly come to the conclusion that hell couldn't possibly be WORSE than what I was experiencing at the time. Ya think? I know very well why I'm more threatened by religion than him or almost anyone else for that matter. My logical mind took their self-contradicting religion & came to the logical conclusion that there was absolutely no way for me to get into heaven, because I had been told you had to be certain about your faith & I was too terrified by that time to be certain of anything. I was only a child then, and am much older & wiser now, but still found myself being taken back to that terrifying child that's still hidden not deeply enough in my psyche. I have a real problem with influencing someone to leave their religion I don't particularly have a problem anymore with influencing someone to leave their religion, but mostly can't be bothered to try because 99.999% of the time it's impossible anyway. It's like trying to get an alcoholic to quit drinking - the desire has to start with them. But no, I wouldn't want to change my bf's beliefs because they make him happy & are some integral part of his personality. And they are so vague that I don't particularly see them as harmful. He doesn't believe in hell as a place of eternal suffering, either. He views the soul as something that becomes positive or negative energy upon the body's death, depending on the emotional state of a person when they die. At least that's the closest I've gotten to an explanation so far... This was one of the things we talked about in that last conversation about religion - he wasn't even aware that the bible actually refers to hell as a pit of fire, and when I insisted that it did, he just said it was an allegory. The whole book is allegory to him, to be interpreted however you want, basically. Wouldn't you prefer it if he weren't a Christian? Yet, I would personally feel unhappy about "deconverting" my special someone (if I had one). The thing is, I don't consider him to be a christian, even though he does (though I'm careful not to make that distinction to or around him). The thing is, I don't think there's enough there that he believes in specifically that he could percievably give it up. He'll take something a xtian says & either agree or disagree with it, but it would never trouble him in any way. What bothers me is his inability to understand that there are times when it's just best to drop it, because it's like... well to use the only analogy that comes to mind, it's like having sex with someone who was raped many years ago. She may be fine with it most of the time, but if she is for whatever reason having a problem with it right now & it's bringing back the feelings of that experience, the decent thing to do would be to just back the hell off. I've never been raped, but that's just how I feel about it - if it's too much, just have a little respect for what I went through & back off if I ask you to. But he doesn't understand that what I went through was abuse. It's more like, "I know you have this 'thing', but..." Physical abuse is so much easier to explain. but have you ever asked him why he gives himself the label "Christian" if he believes none of the particulars of the religion? According to him this is the religion he was taught by his "christian" church (episcopal). He says he was taught to question. He questioned; he threw out the parts that didn't make sense. Which, apparently, was most of it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 Bishop Spong is piscy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 BTW - Ladies... soon as your husband starts going on about 1 Tim 2 - RUN... TAKE ANY CHILDREN AND RUN.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NearlyInsane Posted July 26, 2007 Author Share Posted July 26, 2007 Bishop Spong is piscy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llwellyn Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 Maybe you could get your BF a book that would help him to understand how you feel and how Christianity could have contributed to those feelings? The best book that I know of like this is "Leaving the Fold" by Marlene Winnell: Seems like he would understand better after he read this. You guys could read it together and talk about it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NearlyInsane Posted July 26, 2007 Author Share Posted July 26, 2007 Seriously doubt I could get him to read it. An article online would be better... I just have to find something that talks about the toxic effect of hellfire/brimstone religion on young children in 3 pages or less, LOL. BTW, thanks for the comments & suggestions Llwellyn. It's been nice talking to you. I don't have any ex-christian friends IRL anymore. Well, I have one friend, but haven't heard from him in years... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 Bishop Spong is piscy... Epsicopalian Bishop doesn't believe in the Trinity, the divinity of Christ or the Virgin birth... I'm always amazed how this group hasn't heard of him... I'm a great fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llwellyn Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 I know who Spong is, but who is piscy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 piscy - episcopalian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhampir Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 I've heard of Spong. It was actually a book by him, left out for family to see accidentally, that revealed my lack of belief, simply by having the term atheist in it. 3 times. It was true of course that I was an ex-christian by that point, but while the book itself proved nothing, I still was threatened with "eviction" over it. Glad I don't live there anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtdude Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 ...What bothers me is his inability to understand that there are times when it's just best to drop it ...But he doesn't understand that what I went through was abuse. It's more like, "I know you have this 'thing', but..." .... Hi NI, It's most frustrating to be misunderstood, particularly by someone you care for, and whose opinions you care for. Sounds like his response "hey, your thing is just irrational and you need to get over it" is the problem. So he doesn't have the backstory, like you and me and many others on this site, of actually taking the christian dogma seriously and to heart. So be it. However, at least from what you've expressed, it sounds like he's trivializing your feelings and experiences. Most annoying, and also very alienating to a relationship. I hope you are able to tell him, and that he will actually listen, to what you are saying. Perhaps he can go beyond his own experience and attempt to understand yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShackledNoMore Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 I don't think your BF will EVER really understand. He hasn't had the misfortune of being burned. The question is, can he accept that your experiences were real and that you got burned by a much more rigid and cruel version of the cult than what his parents raised him with in his mellow environment, and can respect your position and even manage some level of supportiveness on these matters after you've gone through the deconversion process and dealt with the religious abuse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godlessgrrl Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 Yeah, it doesn't sound to me as if religion is really the core issue - he probably will never really understand why you feel about religion the way you do. That, in and of itself, is fine - the problem seems to me to be that he needs to learn to respect your feelings about it, even if he doesn't quite understand them. I mean, really. "I know you have this thing..." How fucking condescending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbobrob Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 Just trying to underrstand his point of view. Would he understand if you were scared of driving too fast if you had been in an accident when you were young, even if he had never experienced being in one himself? I just find his lack of empathy disturbing for someone who you say is willing to have discussions about anything and everything else. I have not had many things happen to me, but I can still understand and believe others have had these experiences. I had no relatives in the Holocaust, but I have empathy and believe the stories of the survivors. Just sounds strange to me his attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NearlyInsane Posted July 27, 2007 Author Share Posted July 27, 2007 it sounds like he's trivializing your feelings and experiences. Most annoying, and also very alienating to a relationship. In a nutshell, yep. Yeah, it doesn't sound to me as if religion is really the core issue - he probably will never really understand why you feel about religion the way you do. That, in and of itself, is fine - the problem seems to me to be that he needs to learn to respect your feelings about it, even if he doesn't quite understand them. Yeah... The more I think about it, though, I guess this has been building for the last year & a half - ever since my best friend died. He was the only person I could talk to about religion - he understood the hell I went through & could empathize. Since then, I suppose I've just been bottling it all up. It wasn't obvious to me because I'd gotten so much better at dealing w/ religion. But I don't think I can deal with it over the long term if I'm surrounded by nothing but christians. I need a lifeline - someone to remind me that I'm not the only person in the world who feels the way I do about it. Which is why I went looking for ex-christian forums. What a breath of fresh air!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
מה טבו Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 Perhaps you could try reframing the discussion in terms of a concept that he does understand. If you two like discussing psychology, he almost certainly understands the concept of psychological abuse. Why not use that as a route? Tell him that this discussion stirs up memories of psychological abuse that you endured. No, it doesn't describe the whole of your experience - but framing the discussion with a more familiar concept may better help him get the idea - and he may be more likely to change his behavior as a result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 Hi NI, I didn't realize you were new to the board as well...I assumed you were an old hand. Anyway, just thought I'd comment: He gets very emotional when the subject comes up, and it hurts me because I'M the one with this sticky black stuff inside me because of what I went through as a child. But HE's upset about what I'm saying about religion. I find this very weird if he is as liberal as you imply. Especially if he doesn't believe the Bible is the infallible word and the typical rigamoral we're all used to. It just doesn't make any sense that he responds like a typical fundy. I can understand your confusion... Believe me, I know. My EX-husband went from completely non-religious to raving fundy. Ouch! That must have been your worst nightmare come true! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NearlyInsane Posted August 1, 2007 Author Share Posted August 1, 2007 Hi NI, I didn't realize you were new to the board as well...I assumed you were an old hand. I was on an ex-tian mailing list many years ago. Had been doing well until recently, when I realized that since the death of my best friend a year & a half ago I haven't had anyone to talk to who understands what I went through w/ religion. Basically I came here for a booster shot, LOL. He gets very emotional when the subject comes up, and it hurts me because I'M the one with this sticky black stuff inside me because of what I went through as a child. But HE's upset about what I'm saying about religion. I find this very weird if he is as liberal as you imply. Especially if he doesn't believe the Bible is the infallible word and the typical rigamoral we're all used to. It just doesn't make any sense that he responds like a typical fundy. I can understand your confusion... Yeah, well he doesn't respond to many things in the way a "normal" person would... He tends to look at things from a unique perspective, & sometimes it's completely baffling. The religion thing is no exception. His beliefs resemble spirituality, & have little to do with xianity, but he believes that his beliefs ARE xianity. It's bizarre. The problem is that even though his beliefs don't remotely resemble xianity, he gets upset at any attacks on xianity as a religion. He sees it as an attack on HIS beliefs, not as an attack on the psycho things xians really believe. I dunno. It's hard to comprehend. Believe me, I know. My EX-husband went from completely non-religious to raving fundy. Ouch! That must have been your worst nightmare come true! You are so right. *shudder* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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