perianwalsh Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 Sorry for troubling but recently i got some disagreement with my non xtn best friend..i have been in the closet for a long time and now i decide to break it to her.she is a non xtn who attend a xtn camp once at her youth,and she thinks every religion is good but misused by believers-I agree with her with an extent--it seems like she keeps feeling that i am prejudiced,and she has ALMOST no idea i got a long time tortured regarding on hell issue-UNLIKE her i could not get reasoned to myself so immediately--she ask me to give an example why i leave and i told her about the different messianic concept between jews and xtn but i could not explain further for she does not knew much about the bible.She kept asking me how i felt about xtianity--I think she thought me prejudiced --ARRGH..in short i want to tell her i am not against ANY xtian but i could not accept their doctrine--such as hell,original sin---and if i answer this how should i answer her might be questions ???Or i just put in a perfect but not exact to truth answer?-she does not even knew some xtn community thinks that if you dont believe you end up in hell ,regardless of who you are !!!In short i think she's lack of the experience .............what should i do to resolve it..??????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mankey Posted August 11, 2007 Share Posted August 11, 2007 Sorry for troubling but recently i got some disagreement with my non xtn best friend..i have been in the closet for a long time and now i decide to break it to her.she is a non xtn who attend a xtn camp once at her youth,and she thinks every religion is good but misused by believers-I agree with her with an extent--it seems like she keeps feeling that i am prejudiced,and she has ALMOST no idea i got a long time tortured regarding on hell issue-UNLIKE her i could not get reasoned to myself so immediately--she ask me to give an example why i leave and i told her about the different messianic concept between jews and xtn but i could not explain further for she does not knew much about the bible.She kept asking me how i felt about xtianity--I think she thought me prejudiced --ARRGH..in short i want to tell her i am not against ANY xtian but i could not accept their doctrine--such as hell,original sin---and if i answer this how should i answer her might be questions ???Or i just put in a perfect but not exact to truth answer?-she does not even knew some xtn community thinks that if you dont believe you end up in hell ,regardless of who you are !!!In short i think she's lack of the experience .............what should i do to resolve it..??????? I don't know man....show her scripture from the New Testament and what you think is wrong with it. Religion is faulty equipment and so, with some religions people get hurt from time to time.... Want a job done right use equipment that you know isn't faulty. Christianity aint it. The bible is a mixed bag and says what it says. Theology is a mixed bag and does not always allow the bible to say what it actually says. Neither are rational as strictly reason based methods are rational. Both are a mixed bag Rationally both should be rejected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftofpunk Posted August 11, 2007 Share Posted August 11, 2007 Wow, wish i could help but I'm against most of them myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mankey Posted August 11, 2007 Share Posted August 11, 2007 Wow, wish i could help but I'm against most of them myself. If something is worth doing at all it deserves the right tools and equipment. The bible is faulty, theology is faulty.. and so should never be treated as a legitimate means of discrimination. The best way to fix the bible is to just admit that our ancestors were not in any way the epitome of reason, let alone inspired by any God. No one is. All we can do is keep making adjustments until things work better than before. Real methods. If you base your life on magical thinking some where down the line something will go wrong. Its not fair. Its not reasonable. That is the way I see things. But I try not to be a hardass because I have indulged in magical thinking myself. Just sayin' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted August 11, 2007 Share Posted August 11, 2007 Maybe take a few select items from some place like evilbible.com to show her that on the surface the religion appears to be nice and friendly but once you dig beneath that friendly exterior it can become dark and sinister. Once you realized this it no longer appealed to you. She, like so many believers (even though she isn't one), never truly "dig" beneath that surface and so they never know this side of things which is why you don't so much want to place blame on the believers for their beliefs but maybe for not doing proper research beyond what is fed to them by their priests. If xianity were to ever truly live up to what is in the book it wouldn't be as pretty as they try to make it out to be. Hopefully this wasn't too much at once. It seems to be what you want to do to make your point without overwhelming her and without requiring her to actually become intimately knowledgeable with the bible and theology herself. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mankey Posted August 11, 2007 Share Posted August 11, 2007 Maybe take a few select items from some place like evilbible.com to show her that on the surface the religion appears to be nice and friendly but once you dig beneath that friendly exterior it can become dark and sinister. Once you realized this it no longer appealed to you. She, like so many believers (even though she isn't one), never truly "dig" beneath that surface and so they never know this side of things which is why you don't so much want to place blame on the believers for their beliefs but maybe for not doing proper research beyond what is fed to them by their priests. If xianity were to ever truly live up to what is in the book it wouldn't be as pretty as they try to make it out to be. Hopefully this wasn't too much at once. It seems to be what you want to do to make your point without overwhelming her and without requiring her to actually become intimately knowledgeable with the bible and theology herself. mwc OOps. Yea... EvilBible Skeptics Annotated Bible Sorry perianwalsh. Use what really disturbs you the most from the bible. Your right though, hell is bad enough. It is insulting to ones intelligence because it is so unjust. It is abusive because of all the worry some believers might have cause some one you love who is a good person will fry if they never believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godlessgrrl Posted August 11, 2007 Share Posted August 11, 2007 Maybe I'm not understanding this, but something seems weird to me: if she's not a Xian herself, why is she interrogating you about your nonbelief? Why is it any of her business, really, or why would she be bothered by your deconversion, if she herself isn't a Xian? I'm not sure what the problem is, exactly - is it a frustration with her questions, or a frustration with not being able to explain, or is she so inexperienced about the realities of Xianity that she just doesn't know why people might leave it? I'm not trying to give you the third degree here either, I just need a little clarification, if you're willing to indulge me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mankey Posted August 12, 2007 Share Posted August 12, 2007 Maybe I'm not understanding this, but something seems weird to me: if she's not a Xian herself, why is she interrogating you about your nonbelief? Why is it any of her business, really, or why would she be bothered by your deconversion, if she herself isn't a Xian? I'm not sure what the problem is, exactly - is it a frustration with her questions, or a frustration with not being able to explain, or is she so inexperienced about the realities of Xianity that she just doesn't know why people might leave it? I'm not trying to give you the third degree here either, I just need a little clarification, if you're willing to indulge me. Guess what? There are a lot of fence setters and non-believers who think that all religions are basically good. They don't know shit about the bible or about the different theologies of different churches. They just assume that religion is purely a positive thing. I really never waste my time on close minded superstitionists. Its some atheists as well as open minded theists who need to give these things some thought in my opinion. The minority ( fundies) should not get a free pass in their discriminations. The more open minded people there are the better things will get. Convos like these are a very good thing. It seems his friend feels that we should all just leave each other alone. That doesn't work be'ins that there is a powerful minority who will not leave folks alone. GJ perianwalsh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perianwalsh Posted August 12, 2007 Author Share Posted August 12, 2007 Maybe I'm not understanding this, but something seems weird to me: if she's not a Xian herself, why is she interrogating you about your nonbelief? Why is it any of her business, really, or why would she be bothered by your deconversion, if she herself isn't a Xian? I'm not sure what the problem is, exactly - is it a frustration with her questions, or a frustration with not being able to explain, or is she so inexperienced about the realities of Xianity that she just doesn't know why people might leave it? I'm not trying to give you the third degree here either, I just need a little clarification, if you're willing to indulge me. last year i was very pro of xtianity.but now i deconverted,and i think i ought to tell her the truth why i left.the result?she point to me my examples such as my christian friends-some are our common best/old friends-i think she thought me thinking them as bad,My frustration is all you listed.I told her frankly that this deconversion has changed my viewpoint of life,and she does not knew why my viewpoint will change-maybe it's the same argument for atheist is frequently angry? just that she goes on -and yes she heard the hell doctrine and she even explain to me why she reject it(this part of my conversation here is strange here,and i do wonder what she think of the hell doctrine originated from).she cant see how long i have to do to reject the doctrine.and when i told my research indicates otherwise,she asked-what if you are wrong? i dont deny there's real good christian.I think good people exist in every catagory,and one of my most respected person is a christian pastor-but i found their god is really more loving,and much more of a deist. It seems his friend feels that we should all just leave each other alone. That doesn't work be'ins that there is a powerful minority who will not leave folks alone. yes,there's .I dont think people will do much harm if xtn think xtianity is part of human creation[[eg the sea of faith]/just writtings of old wise people and should not take literally-but the fundies work really harm even the other non-believers of other religion.And that's my point of research. Hopefully this wasn't too much at once. smile.gif It seems to be what you want to do to make your point without overwhelming her and without requiring her to actually become intimately knowledgeable with the bible and theology herself. yes-i dont want her to overwhelmed her . [sighs!] we both sides,i think want to resolve our disagreement(as this is the fiirst major disasgreement).I hope i can make her understand.guess i have to solve it myself.And thanks for all of your help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godlessgrrl Posted August 14, 2007 Share Posted August 14, 2007 Yeah, that makes sense... I have no advice other than to be willing to explain your POV, patiently, as best you can. It will become easier over time. Good luck, in any case, and keep us posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftofpunk Posted August 15, 2007 Share Posted August 15, 2007 It sounds like the friend is one of those people to as Dennett describes "believe in belief". You did say that you THINK she thinks you're prejudiced. Outright ask her to clarify. This is like one of those dramas you see on TV at night where there's a confusion that occurs and it could simply be fixed if only the first person asked the right question. Of course they never do because that would SOLVE THE CONFLICT and then the TV show would have to be over SO ASK THE RIGHT QUESTIONS TO HER! Instead of her asking you questions which is only confusing her more or mis-interpreting you, YOU need to ask her what she needs to know. Maybe if you explained that good people can, and do exist in Christianity IN SPITE OF IT and not because of it she'll understand better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perianwalsh Posted August 20, 2007 Author Share Posted August 20, 2007 Maybe if you explained that good people can, and do exist in Christianity IN SPITE OF IT and not because of it she'll understand better? well written-and i agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mankey Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 Maybe if you explained that good people can, and do exist in Christianity IN SPITE OF IT and not because of it she'll understand better? well written-and i agree Agreed. Criticizing religion is not the same as saying Christians can't be good people....nor is it saying that there is nothing of value in the bible... People can do evil things and People will do good things without religion, but it takes Christianity to get good people to do evil things....not all good people, but in some cases many. Think of wars that have been justified through religion. The crusades. The treatment of native Americans. Slavery. Religion has helped government in justifying these things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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