Ouroboros Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. According to this scripture a rich man died and in hell he could not only feel thirst, make a judgment call to talk to Abe, and also feel concerns for his still alive brothers and family. My question here is not if hell exists or not, or heaven, or the strange situation that they can talk to each other between those places, but that the man actually felt pity and enough love to his family that he cared for them so much that he didn’t want them to go to hell, but have a chance to go to heaven. He displayed an unselfish attitude there, shouldn't God reward him for this? So, is love an emotion even evil people can feel when they’re in hell? Isn’t God the source of all love, so how can this man feel love? The man made a decision, and some rational thought, which requires a will, so does free will exists still hell? Abe was limited in his capacities from his standpoint, but had a very uncaring attitude towards the man’s family. Can you be mean and uncaring in heaven? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotter Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 Han Solo, He displayed an unselfish attitude there, shouldn't God reward him for this? A. According to Christianity, it is too late. So, is love an emotion even evil people can feel when they’re in hell? Isn’t God the source of all love, so how can this man feel love? A. Love becomes one of the sources of torment here. The man made a decision, and some rational thought, which requires a will, so does free will exists still hell? A. Yes, free will still exists. The free will to suffer only. Abe was limited in his capacities from his standpoint, but had a very uncaring attitude towards the man’s family. Can you be mean and uncaring in heaven? A. ABSOLUTE happiness in Heaven has no room for feeling pain, thus no room for feeling pain for others. <- Han Solo, from our previous exchanges and posts, this is something unresolved for me also. 'Would be interested to see Christian responses. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 20, 2005 Author Share Posted June 20, 2005 Thanx Scotter. To clear my topic ponderings a little more... My problem with this section of the Bible is that the man was supposed to be evil, uncaring, selfish, and all bad things you can invent, and that's why he got the punishment, but yet in hell, when the personal pain is greater, which normally would call for cries of "poor me, poor me", he actually turned around to become a good person... Does that mean that God gave him that emotion, but only first after not giving him that emotion during life? So God gave him love in Hell to torment him, but couldn't give him love in life, so he had the excuse to punish him? Or could it be that the man had that emotion in life? So maybe he wasn't so bad after all? Or maybe he had love, but choose not to displayed it, and that was part of his sin? This probably sounds like the most reasonable answer... To me that passage in the Bible doesn't paint a too good picture of sins and punishment, so many questions unanswered. The Bible should have explained the theology behind this more and made it clear what happens in heaven and hell, or God shouldn't have used this verse at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 A. ABSOLUTE happiness in Heaven has no room for feeling pain, thus no room for feeling pain for others. . <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Wow - that's really thought provoking - that seems to suggest that happiness comes from a sort of detachment, and it's the love we feel for others that causes us to suffer. This just makes me think of this story about one of my college room mates that has always made me smile. She had been looking into the idea of suffering being the result of being 'too attached to things and people' - and she spent a whole weekend trying very hard to 'let go' of everything. After two days of living with this new peaceful, serene and calm individual, the spell was broken when she accidently knocked a small ceramic pot (that she loved) off the windowsill and an involuntary 'oh bugger!' slipped from her lips. Whilst this is a silly example - the reason she cried out (and infact she subsequently shed a few tears as well as the pot had sentimental value) was that she was 'attached' to the pot and it was this emotional link that caused her suffering when the pot was broken. I can see that not loving people or things can end suffering. But that's a great big price to pay. I think I'd rather love and risk the suffering. (although in the midst of 'suffering' I have sometimes said quite the opposite!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purple Rhino Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 Interesting thread Han, I'll have to think it over a bit. All I'm getting in my head is "To question gods word is to question god! .. go pray fo forgiveness!" [/flashback] PR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 20, 2005 Author Share Posted June 20, 2005 Doesn't Buddism talk about suffering and pain as part of the "sin" and the attachment to the world and our ego? Maybe there is a connection? Attachment & Love -> Loss & Pain So maybe the pain in hell is supposed to be the loss of the attachment of our lifes and loved ones... Am I confusing enough here?... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 20, 2005 Author Share Posted June 20, 2005 All I'm getting in my head is "To question gods word is to question god! .. go pray fo forgiveness!" [/flashback] Only if you know which holy book is Gods word! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotter Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 Han Solo, If I were to do Christian responses, my answer is almost like yours. I would say the man during his life was given emotion and love. He exercised his freewill to be selfish instead of loving during his life, and in hell he repented because of the torment. For me myself, your second group of questions makes me think. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 20, 2005 Author Share Posted June 20, 2005 If I were to do Christian responses, my answer is almost like yours. I would say the man during his life was given emotion and love. He exercised his freewill to be selfish instead of loving during his life, and in hell he repented because of the torment. I hope I won't confuse you guys with my jumping between both sides of the fence here. Sometimes I like to think from the other side, and play the devils advocate a bit, and then jump back, only because I'm curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 Doesn't Buddism talk about suffering and pain as part of the "sin" and the attachment to the world and our ego? Maybe there is a connection? Attachment & Love -> Loss & Pain So maybe the pain in hell is supposed to be the loss of the attachment of our lifes and loved ones... Am I confusing enough here?... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> yes - I think Buddhism teaches that pain and suffering are a consequence of our attachments. On one level I can see this - a lot of the emotional pain I have felt has been as a result of 'holding on' to things and feelings ... and where those feelings are things like anger or bitterness or such like - I can completely see the sense in letting go. I can also see that if we let go of the postive things we love, this too limits the 'suffering' we are likely to feel ... but I'm not sure that I would want to take it that far - its like the extreme of this way of thinking would be 'let go of the love you have for your children ... and then you won't suffer if anything happens to them' And if this was the thinking in this passage it would mean that the suffering in hell is caused by the concern for those you love - whilst those in heaven were 'less bothered' because they had 'let go' of these attachments ... Hey! why did I never get to do this to a passage in house group .... oh yes I remember ... to question god's word is to .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 20, 2005 Author Share Posted June 20, 2005 yes - I think Buddhism teaches that pain and suffering are a consequence of our attachments. On one level I can see this - a lot of the emotional pain I have felt has been as a result of 'holding on' to things and feelings ... and where those feelings are things like anger or bitterness or such like - I can completely see the sense in letting go. I can also see that if we let go of the postive things we love, this too limits the 'suffering' we are likely to feel ... but I'm not sure that I would want to take it that far - its like the extreme of this way of thinking would be 'let go of the love you have for your children ... and then you won't suffer if anything happens to them' And if this was the thinking in this passage it would mean that the suffering in hell is caused by the concern for those you love - whilst those in heaven were 'less bothered' because they had 'let go' of these attachments ... Hey! why did I never get to do this to a passage in house group .... oh yes I remember ... to question god's word is to .... I just thought about utilitarianism too, isn't that somewhat detached from personal concerns and emotions? Anyway, I think somehow to detach myself from the feelings I have for my family would be a great mistake... it just doesn't sound right... And yet if this is the case, this man had feelings of love in his life, but didn't show them, didn't Jesus say we were supposed to hate our father and mother? So just being being-able-to-love-but-not-loving can't be a sin, since Jesus requested that for the disciples to love him only... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 I just thought about utilitarianism too, isn't that somewhat detached from personal concerns and emotions? Anyway, I think somehow to detach myself from the feelings I have for my family would be a great mistake... it just doesn't sound right... And yet if this is the case, this man had feelings of love in his life, but didn't show them, didn't Jesus say we were supposed to hate our father and mother? So just being being-able-to-love-but-not-loving can't be a sin, since Jesus requested that for the disciples to love him only... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I guess I always understood the 'hate your father and mother' thing to be one of those comparison things - as in you should love God SO much that by compariosn it was almost as if you hated your Father and Mother ... I recall having it explained that way once anyhow ... although I had a problem with the priority thing always ... this was one of the reasons my hubs first started walking away ... being told that he should make God more of a priority than his family. I remember one glorious house group when he simply refused to say that he loved God more than me! and better still he refused to say that he was a work in progress and one day he would reach that higher path of loving God more than me and the kids. It caused quite a stir - and made my heart flutter and I swear all the other women were jealous even if they pretended to think that he was a terrible blackslider who needed some sanctifying! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 21, 2005 Author Share Posted June 21, 2005 I guess I always understood the 'hate your father and mother' thing to be one of those comparison things - as in you should love God SO much that by compariosn it was almost as if you hated your Father and Mother ... I recall having it explained that way once anyhow ... although I had a problem with the priority thing always ... this was one of the reasons my hubs first started walking away ... being told that he should make God more of a priority than his family. I remember one glorious house group when he simply refused to say that he loved God more than me! and better still he refused to say that he was a work in progress and one day he would reach that higher path of loving God more than me and the kids. I totally understand. That was the teaching I got too. And actually I thought I had it completely down before our car accident, when my family got hurt, then I realized how much I loved them, and they were more important than anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 He displayed an unselfish attitude there, shouldn't God reward him for this? No. According to the bible, it doesn't matter how good you are. You're still not good enough, even at your very best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 According to this scripture a rich man died and in hell he could not only feel thirst, make a judgment call to talk to Abe, and also feel concerns for his still alive brothers and family. My question here is not if hell exists or not, or heaven, or the strange situation that they can talk to each other between those places, but that the man actually felt pity and enough love to his family that he cared for them so much that he didn’t want them to go to hell, but have a chance to go to heaven. He displayed an unselfish attitude there, shouldn't God reward him for this? So, is love an emotion even evil people can feel when they’re in hell? Isn’t God the source of all love, so how can this man feel love? The man made a decision, and some rational thought, which requires a will, so does free will exists still hell? Abe was limited in his capacities from his standpoint, but had a very uncaring attitude towards the man’s family. Can you be mean and uncaring in heaven? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You have given some scripture of importance, I have some to explain that "feeling" in hell thing as well. Luke 6:32-38 32 "But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 "And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 "And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive back, what credit is that to you? For even sinners lend to sinners to receive as much back. 35 "But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil. 36 "Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful. 37 "Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38 "Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you."(NKJ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 21, 2005 Author Share Posted June 21, 2005 You have given some scripture of importance, I have some to explain that "feeling" in hell thing as well. Luke 6:32-38 Pretty good response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syndacit Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 Doesn't Buddism talk about suffering and pain as part of the "sin" and the attachment to the world and our ego? Maybe there is a connection? Attachment & Love -> Loss & Pain <{POST_SNAPBACK}> yeppers Buddhism believes in no attachment in this world there are even times when they loose family members and they wont ever cry or be hurt by it but, understand its the way of life and move on So maybe the pain in hell is supposed to be the loss of the attachment of our lifes and loved ones... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> maybe so, maybe hell is not eternal physical pain but mental pain of not being with loved ones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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