A Very Important Thread

[Guest Geese Aplenty]

Hey folks. I got a really important thing to run by you.

 

I’ve been an ex-C for about a full year now. But over the course of this year, for whatever reason, I was a regular poster at apologetics.org. I guess I wanted to vent while also confirming what I have left. Sure enough, the nonsensical answers were ever-flowing, and this helped me decide to leave for good.

 

Now I want to say farewell to the forum. In this thread, I would like to sum up the three big issues that helped me take notice of the fragility of my faith. I wanted to get your feedback on all of them to make sure I’m not sounding “out there” and/or had for apologetic breakfast. They are as follows:

Homosexuality/Gender Blurring

 

This disturbed me when I was a Christian, and now in examining the evidence as a ex-C, it’s even more so. I was watching a documentary called Middle Sexes narrated by Gore Vidal. In it, they profiled a little boy who was very effeminate, to the point of it being an obvious social issue. He had church-going parents and lived in an environment where homosexuality or effeminate behavior was not something encouraged or taught—he simply was born obviously GAY. The implications of this are enormous, and many evangelicals see this. This contributed greatly to my finally confronting the cognitive dissonance head-on.

Evolution/Earth Age/Problem of Evil

 

Simply put, evolution and the history of cataclysm on planet earth make the Problem of Evil very REAL. We know why evolution is a problem—and so do the anti-evolution evangelicals. Cataclysm being evident since the beginning of “creation” is also a bugger. How could God say man introduced all that was bad in the world when we obviously see that cataclysm was woven into the design? If there was a design, how could anyone argue that cataclysm was not built into it? I struggled with this so long until I realized it was an impossible thing to be asked to believe that which makes ZERO sense. It’s like asking me to believe that ghosts exist, ya know? One does not WILL belief. It is not an on/off switch. The implications of this are obvious, but I would be very much appreciative if anyone elaborated on them.

Marriage

 

Since leaving the church, my relationship with my wife has improved to a SIGNIFICANT extent. We are more honest, less insecure and jealous, more trusting, more communicative, and more libidinous with each other. The implications of this seem obvious. How could a marriage improve once adherence to a biblical worldview has ceased? That made no sense to me. And it improved in a really beautiful and spiritual way. The kind of way that makes you think spiritual thoughts like “Man if there is a god, he’s doing something very cool by helping my wife and I communicate more and vastly improving my sex life!” You know? It made no sense that God would reward my apostasy with a good dose of one-on-one therapy in which my wife and I bonded like we never have before.

 

Anyway, that was three significant factors, but there were many more. What do you suppose some of these smarmy evangelical pricks (SEPs) will say? There’s a handful of SEPs at this forum.

 

By the way, if anyone’s interested, my username over at apologetics.org is Ophir. I started some pretty interesting threads, some a little premature and misguided and some that really threw them for a loop and attack. My PoE-type threads really stumped them and so down the SEP trail many of them went. It was a good run over there. I really learned a lot about Christianity. It’s surprising how liberal a turn it has taken. I did not realize that inerrancy was no longer in Christian vogue, for example. I was protected from that information when I was in the cult. LOL

 

Thanks!

[מה טבו]

I really learned a lot about Christianity. It’s surprising how liberal a turn it has taken.

 

Christians tend to become very theologically liberal when they think it will help win an argument. In Christianity, the answers tend to change to get the desired results. Remember that Paul himself was deceptive in missionizing (he admits it several times in the NT), and that tradition has continued since then.

 

Homosexuality/Gender Blurring

 

They're going to cite studies, usually from Paul Cameron, Focus on the Family, or some other agenda-based group. The studies have been roundly debunked, but they usually argue that mainstream science has an atheistic agenda - a problem that you're also going to encounter when discussing evolution.

 

They love to compare us (gays and lesbians) to pedophiles, zoophiles, and the like. They will point out (correctly) that these people do not have a choice in their attraction either. Your pointing out that homosexuality involves 2 consenting adults whereas pedophilia and zoophilia do not usually doesn't fase them. If you bring up the topic of gay marriage, they bring up polygamy and incest, and sometimes even prostitution.

 

You could try pointing out the existence of intersexed people among the population - don't know how far it will get you though.

[Luke Wolf]

Homosexuality/Gender Blurring

There is actually alot of studies on genetics that have proven genetics plays a large role in determining ones sexual orientation. While human tests have yet to be conducted, scientist can produce gay lab rats, fruit flies, and other test subjects almost every time.

Also, homosexual behavior has been observed many, many times in nature, which proves it is indeed a natural thing. Although many fundies will not hear it, and will ignore articles from even the most credible of news sources.

 

As far as transsexualism goes, there are no concrete theories on why, but genetics is one guess, and the most common theory is that during fetal development, the fetus has been developing as one gender, but the brain is soaked in hormones of the other gender. However, it is medically agreed upon that it is an actual disorder that (so far) cannot be cure

d at all. Transitioning has shown to have greatly elevated effects of gender identity dysphoria (such as depression) for most patients, but it is very, very rare that anyone feels fully content after a complete and successful physical transition of the other gender.

 

Cross dressing and other form of gender blending I am not very educated in.

 

Evolution/Earth Age/Problem of Evil

Simply put, there are human artifacts that have been dated, and are alittle over 70,000 years old. Hard evidence against a 6-10 thousand year old earth. Also, many, many other things, such as fossil records, natural gas and oil deposits, and many cosmic bodies disprove a young earth theory.

 

While evolution lines and happenings are not fully understood, it is confirmed that mutations occur at the genetic level, which over time, can produce a new species. Most christians simply do not understand what evolution is. They even do not realize that some evolution ancestry charts do not even put man as a direct descendant from apes, but rather a shared common ancestry. But, in the science world, creationism and ID are laughed at, as they should be. Especially ID's claims of "since we don't understand it, it means it is God's doing." If we had this mentality throughout time, lightning would still be gods anger, and illnesses being a hex, rather than bacteria and viruses.

 

Evil is a term that is both abstract and relative. The Nazi regime did not perceive Hitler as evil. Some see capitol punishment as evil, while other's don't. I do not think it's evil to smoke marijuana, but some people do. Evil, as is good, is in the eye of the beholder.

 

Marriage

Marriage under the church is more of an obligation than a contracted commitment between two people. A couple can be happy without marriage, which is just for show. Under the church, people are expected to get married, and only after marriage can they have sex, and which sex is too be used for having kids. Some churches allow sex for fun, but some do not. But in it's simplest form, all marriage is is a contract signed between the minister, the two people being married, and I think two witnesses (I'll have to check on that.) And along with any contract, there are rules that regulate who can enter into that contract. And if celebrities will marry someone and divorce someone within the same week, and someone like myself who claims to be Satan's Son can wed people (I myself have been an ordained minister for about a year, and can legally wed people), does it really sound like a sacred pact?

Outside of Christianity, marriage is not an obligation, and simply not needed, unless it is desired. Two people do not have to be married just to live together and be happy.

[מה טבו]

Simply put, there are human artifacts that have been dated, and are alittle over 70,000 years old. Hard evidence against a 6-10 thousand year old earth. Also, many, many other things, such as fossil records, natural gas and oil deposits, and many cosmic bodies disprove a young earth theory.

 

If you cite any of these studies, expect attempts to discredit the various forms of chemical dating. Some of the arguments are pretty decent, but others are such genius as "if you carbon date a ball point pen, it will show to be millions of years old." I remember my father quoting that one to me from Kent Hovind when I was in 10th grade. 1 semester of 10th grade biology, and I was able to rip that one to shreds.

[NearlyInsane]

It's hard for me to approach this post w/ what the apologists are likely to say, because there is literally no end to what they will say to try to "prove" that they are correct in their beliefs. I'm just giving you a quick rundown on what I determined about these issues in my years of deconverting & later arguing w/ believers as an atheist. My views evolved over those years into what seems to me a pretty simple yet obvious death blow to xianity. Obviously believers don't tend to see it that way, but I no longer have any difficulty at all in causing them to flee my arguments in terror, LOL.

 

 

Homosexuality/Gender Blurring -

I'd lump this issue in w/ everything else in my approach to the problem of evil (below).

 

 

Evolution/Earth Age/Problem of Evil -

 

Evolution & really shouldn't be a problem to xians; the sane ones simply reason that evolution is part of the design god set up when he created the world. Of course, that doesn't play well w/ inerrancy , but then nothing does. Literal interpretation of the bible is self-defeating. You don't need ANYTHING outside of the bible to argue that one. It's so full of contradictions you can turn the apologist on their head in no time flat w/ all of that. Similarly, earth age is a problem only to believers of inerrancy. And again, you really don't need to go there to make mince-meat of inerrancy. If you're interested, there's a really good book clearly outlines many of the problems of literal translation. It's called The Encyclopedia of Biblical Errancy by C. Dennis McKinsey. I had lots of fun w/ apologists using that book as a reference. Things like evolution & earth age will get you embroiled in arguments about science, & those arguments lead NOWHERE. Why? In the end the literal translation freaks don't believe anything a non-fundy scientist says. They can always find a complete moron w/ absolutely no credibility who will say what they want to hear, & they will always believe the moron over the thousands of qualified scientists in the world. The way to attack inerrancy is with the bible. Trust me, it's much easier & more effective.

 

The problem of evil is a theoretical problem w/ the idea of a god who is omnipotent, omnicient, and loving, yet who creates people knowing they will spend an eternity in hell, with the excuse that he wanted us to have "free will." Simply put, what makes people "choose" to do something that will require such a punishment? Are they just born evil? If so, why did god create an evil person knowing he would then banish them to hell for eternity? If you believe one's environment can cause a person to become 'bad', then again, why did god create this person knowing his/her enviroment would cause them to do whatever it is that merits that eternal punishment? Also there is a serious problem of infinite punishment for finite crimes - and even more incredible, according to xianty, the sin most deserving of infinite punishment is the inability to believe something that sounds like a fairy tale. And again, why would this "loving" god create someone knowing that the very brain he has given them will cause them to reject xianity & therefore doom them to an eternity of punishment? The only possible answer to all of this is that xianity is horribly flawed. These beliefs are simply not compatible. If the xian god exists, and is omnipotent, omnicient, and the whole hell thing is true, then this god is definitely not loving. "Free will" is a ridiculous excuse for these contradictions. A nice way of breaking down this problem is with an example. Say I knew I was going to have 10 kids, and that 1 of them (and I know which on it would be) would, after a lifetime of "free will", would spend eternity in hell. Would I be a good person to choose to bring all 10 children into this world, knowing what I know? If I personally was faced w/ such a dilemma, I wouldn't even have to consider it - I would not bring the damned child into this world. In fact, I'd never have sex again if I knew the next child I would have would be damned for all eternity. This all-loving xian god has no such qualms, tho.

 

 

Marriage - this is something I've never argued w/ fundies about, so these are just comments off the top of my head:

 

As to marriage being easier w/ out xianity; for myself EVERYTHING is easier w/out xianity. Xianity complicates everything because many of its rules make no sense & aren't healthy. Sex is a big problem for xians, because the religion is riddled w/ guilt complexes, especially where one's body is concerned. We're taught to be ashamed of our bodies, basically. When one lets go of all that guilt & shame & begins to accept their own body, life gets a lot easier & less stressful. Of course it's going to be stressful on a relationship if one or both approaches sex w/ feelings of guilt and/or shame.

[NearlyInsane]

BTW, there is a verse in the bible that says god created evil.

[NearlyInsane]

Cool, just found the new e-home of an old friend. I met James Buckner on an extiain email list years ago, & the stuff on his website is some of the best reading I've found on questions about the bible & xianity. This guy had an awesome dialogue thru email w/ his friends, family, & church officials about his deconversion. Well, his part of the conversation was awesome, anyway. The responses were pretty much gibberish, but I love reading James' writings on the subject.

 

Here's the main page, where you can find links to letters & essays from the various stages of his deconversion experience:

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/buckner/no.html

 

This is an excellent page w/ plenty of tough questions for xians, complete w/ bible references for every point made:

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/buckner/tough.html