The Atonement:

[mick]

The Atonement: Christianity’s Greatest Flaw

 

 

The very thing that I once naively thought was the best virtue of Christianity is actually its greatest flaw. I am referring to the atonement and the "Grace" of god. There was a time I would ponder for hours and hours why God would save a wretch like me. And I would thank him endlessly for my salvation. However, now the very atonement is what disgusts me. The issue is not that God showed his grace and mercy by dying on a cross to pay for our sins and "save" us from eternal torment. At least that should not be the issue at all. The issue is and should be why in any god's name should we have derserved such a ghastly fate in the first place? He created us. We didn't ask to be created. He was omniscient. He knew what a train wreck his creation was going to be! The issue is why does God hate us so much, and think so poorly of us, that he would send us to eternal suffering and torment without mercy or hope? Regardless of whether you get "Saved" or not, that is what he thinks of you. After you are saved, he is just no longer "giving you what you deserved"? That would be like Hitler sparing some Jews during the Holocaust because they swore allegiance to him.

 

There is another really big problem with the atonement: It makes no sense whatsoever. Let's say there are three people; Tom, Dick, and Harry. Let's say that Tom owes Harry a DEBT of $50 dollars. Let's say that because Harry is SOOOO just he must receive a payment of the $50.00. Now, here comes Dick, freely offering to pay Harry the $50 on Tom's behalf. He pays Harry in full, the DEBT is paid for in FULL. (sound familiar?) Now here is the question. Can you simultaneously, based on this set of facts, state that Harry FORGAVE Tom the $50 dollar debt? Remember this exactly what Christians say. God somehow demands (because he is just), AND received FULL payment for the debt, YET he also somehow FORGAVE you the debt? The bottom line here is Harry forgave Tom NOTHING! In fact, in order for Tom to be FORGIVEN his $50 dolar debt, he would still have had to OWE it to Harry. Harry forgave him precisely NOTHING. In fact he demanded FULL payment, and took it from DICK! Frankly after Dick paid Harry, Tom could have walked away, owing Harry nothing. Christians would attempt to attack this analogy by making some kind of statement about how Harry and Dick are " one in the same being" or at least part of the same "Being-Head" (God-Head)and that somehow the atonement then makes sense. However, it actually fails to address the issue. The Christian EITHER had their debt PAID for on the cross, OR they were FORGIVEN the debt. Both can't be true. This is actually a very profound problem with the entire concept of the "Atonement" that most "current Christians" will attempt to blabber some kind of way out of it. But don't be fooled. They are screwed by this conundrum.

 

The other part of this problem is that people (in fact most people) still go to Hell. If their debts were PAID for by Christ, then why are they also paying for them in Hell? The Calvanist gets around this issue by saying that really only the "elect's" sins were paid for by Christ. (Most Christians reject this idea) Non-Calvanist Christians have no good answer for this.

 

Anyways, who is ultimately responsible for what is happening to the poor creature who ends up in eternal torment in Hell? Is it their fault? Is it Adam or Eve's fault? (trying not to laugh as I type) No! It is the one who is control of the punishment! It is the fault of the one who determines such an unfair and ghastly sentence! It is the fault of the Being who sustains the torture chamber for all eternity. It is the fault of the being who could, at any time, by just a word, end the suffering. If he were real then it would be all his fault. Thankfully he is not real. The fact that the Bible God is false can be rather easily proven to one whose mind is not shut

[Deva]

Congratulations Mick, on seeing through the flaws of the "atonement". Your last paragraph in particular just hits the nail on the head, so to speak. To cover up the problem of God actually being the one responsible, and the one giving out the punishment, the Christinans always resort to the "free-will" argument. It is just as false and immoral as all the rest of this antonement scenario.

 

There is also the notion that God did not send me to hell, I sent myself there. This is promoted by more liberal churches. Sorry, it just doesn't wash. God created it, God is responsible.

[godlessgrrl]

I suppose, then, that if Jesus paid the debt humanity owes to Yahweh, then maybe Xians no longer owe Yahweh, but they sure as shit owe Jesus now. Bigtime.

 

But, but, but, okay, see, so if Jesus and Yahweh are really the same person, then if Jesus pays the debt off to Yahweh, then he's really paying himself off, so yeah, there ya go - Yahweh/Jesus paid himself off so that's the same as forgiving the debt, cuz then Y/J would have a balance of zero, that is, a non-debt anymore, or else yeah maybe now Xians still owe a debt but it's a debt of nothing instead of a debt of... well, whatever the hell the debt was in the first place, being sinful or something.

 

Atonement theology is so fucking retarded.

[מה טבו]

You've hit on something else here that really bugs me about Christianity. It's not just the "atonement," but the sick, warped, perverse definition of love.

 

It starts with the Christian concept of G_d. G_d loves us so much, but he despises us, so he has to kill his son to cover for us so that we can approach him through his son because he loves us so much but he can't stand the sight of us.

 

What... just... what the ever loving fuck?

 

But this sick, horrible perversion of the meaning of love is not just theory. It's routinely taken into practice in Christianity. They "love" gays and lesbians - so much that refuse to treat us like human beings, and they want to eradicate us (whether through assimilation or violence) because they love us so much. They "love" the Jews, whom they have been trying to eradicate for 2000 years because of their "love" for the Jewish people. The latest trick - eradication through assimilation - more Christian "love." They "love" people of other belief systems, so much that they want to impose Christian government on all of us and deny us equality, liberty, and justice under the government we support because they "love" us so much.

 

Christian "love" means death. It's the kind of "love" that gets anyone else a restraining order and a ticket to the loony bin.

[Sexton Blake]

If god exists and he decides that good people should go to heaven and bad people go to hell, all he has to do is leave himself a note about it in his heavenly diary. (JUDGEMENT DAY. SEND EVERYONE TO HELL.) There was no need to go through all the Jesus rigmarole.

[R. S. Martin]

I have to forgive very serious offenses against me committed by people who refuse to admit having done anything wrong. Why can't God--who is supposedly all-powerful--just forgive people who do say sorry? It seems this is asking less of an almighty ruler of the universe than it is asking of me, a mortal human being.

 

There are endless problems with the atonement. That is why I deconverted. It makes no sense. I refuse to go on lying. Saying I believe something that makes no sense in my brain is a lie.

 

Ironically, refusing to lie about sacred matters makes me evil incarnate for some people. There's something seriously warped about the whole ordeal. It's great to be free of it. The truth does indeed set free.

[Japedo]

Ironically, refusing to lie about sacred matters makes me evil incarnate for some people. There's something seriously warped about the whole ordeal. It's great to be free of it. The truth does indeed set free.

 

Here Here, I'll drink to that Ruby!

 

I also could never figure out if God died for all sin so everyone can be saved, why not the "sin" of disbelief without proof?

 

 

also, Riddle me this. Why would God force believers and non-believers alike to break the law of not to murder to save mankind? Surly a great god would be able to save the human race by playing with his own created rule book? Were the murders forgiven for killing Christ because it was forced by god or were they viewed as murderers?

[Robbobrob]

OK, let me get this straight...if I can.

 

Tom owes Harry. Dick pays Harry for Tom. BUT Dick and Harry are actually the same person with multiple personalities. So, all Harry did, in reality, was pull his money from one pocket and stuck it in another.

 

No debt was paid....Tom is not off the hook, which is why we are all still on the hook (within the system of Christianity) for the whole debt, and why God is still master...because we still owe him for allowing us to be born into sin....huh?

 

Nope, can't get this straight, even if I had an iron and a level.

[Evolution_beyond]

EXACTLY. And why don't christians see this when you point it out to them?

 

In fact it's far worse than you portray. God is somehow paying off the debt himself (wtf?) - and still not forgiving most people - and as you quite rightly state it isn't even forgiveness. If God wanted to forgive us, wouldn't he simply have forgiven us? Instead, he feels that the debt must still be paid and offers to pay it himself, and even then he still doesn't let everyone off the hook anyway.

 

It is totally insane and I honestly find it hard to conceive how anyone could actually believe in such a plainly ridiculous concept. But I used to believe it myself, so I'll put it down to people not actually thinking too much about what they claim to believe.

[Evolution_beyond]

I have to forgive very serious offenses against me committed by people who refuse to admit having done anything wrong. Why can't God--who is supposedly all-powerful--just forgive people who do say sorry? It seems this is asking less of an almighty ruler of the universe than it is asking of me, a mortal human being.

 

Another extremely good point.

 

It's not forgiveness by any human definition, it's not unconditional love by any sensible definition of the word unconditional - so why do christians claim that it is these things?

 

It's not really surprising that so many christians seem to have no understanding of true forgiveness or true unconditionality of love in their personal lives either (in my experience at least)

[Evolution_beyond]

OK, let me get this straight...if I can.

 

Tom owes Harry. Dick pays Harry for Tom. BUT Dick and Harry are actually the same person with multiple personalities. So, all Harry did, in reality, was pull his money from one pocket and stuck it in another.

 

this is what I was trying to say

[Guest brookacton]

OK, let me get this straight...if I can.

 

Tom owes Harry. Dick pays Harry for Tom. BUT Dick and Harry are actually the same person with multiple personalities. So, all Harry did, in reality, was pull his money from one pocket and stuck it in another.

 

this is what I was trying to say

 

this is how i see it as well. I guess I just don't see why (hypothetically) God has to go through all this rubbish if he is so powerful. If he is really so powerful, couldn't he just forgive us all without having to kill and resurrect his son/part of himself? No, he has all these rules he is constrained by, using the argument that it is his "nature". But if he is omnipotent, he shouldn't have to be so constrained, eh? (such things are what Anselm, Aquinas, Augustine, Paley, Mavrodes, and Kretzmann all obsessed over)

When I was a fundie, I took an Apologetics class with Peter Kreeft. (http://fmwww.bc.edu/Pl/fac/kreeft.cv.html)

We had to read his book, Handbook of Christian Apologetics, which has all these philosophical arguments using logic. Reading that book made me nauseous at the time (I was in the process of deconverting), though perhaps if I read it now I might get a good laugh out of it, it is so ridiculous.

I am a religion major, but I have avoided taking logic/analytical philosophy classes because I am convinced one can "prove" anything using logic and clever language. ("Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel)

[L.B.]

The reason anyone ("god" or otherwise) would have to go through all this atonement business is simple:

 

When there's doctrine, and an atonement to be applied, there damned sure has to be a RELIGIOUS MEDIATOR of some kind dispensing the shit.

 

OOOOOHHHH (ghostie-sounding moan)... if you don't REPENT... our magical priests won't say their hocus-pocus and give you the uber-cookie at their mass! WE have the POWWWWWWER to say whether you are TRULY walking with Jay-zus or not, or at least we can glibly and arrogantly assume such when you don't talk or dress or vote like us.

 

Remember, no one wrote this stuff and compiled it in a Bahble just for the deep-seated spiritual satisfaction they got. Oh, hell no. They set it up so the privileged few could hold sway over the unwashed throngs of 'sinners' who need 'saving' that only the 'ordained clergy' can provide. Look for the power and/or the money, and that's where you'll see atonement theology, whether it's give us your money and get a free toaster or give us your soul and you'll get OUT of the free toaster... same fucking shit, different salespeople.