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Goodbye Jesus

Assuming that there is a creator....


Guest SerenityNow

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Guest SerenityNow

For the sake of argument, please exChristians whether you believe or not, let's just say that there is a creator. My desire is to see a Christian PROVE, that said Creator is the one in the Judeo/Christian bible.

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I quite agree, thankful. Something HAD to have made all of this. The world is just too beautiful and too complex. I'm convinced. So, now that we have established that we have a creator, lets get on with the discussion to proving it to be Jehovah God, YHWH God the God of the bible..

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For the sake of argument, please exChristians whether you believe or not, let's just say that there is a creator.  My desire is to see a Christian PROVE, that said Creator is the one in the Judeo/Christian bible.

 

The Roman Catholic Church claims, that some kind of a God can be proved (cosmological arguments). According to Catholic thinking, Plato was as close to Christainity as one can get by using reason. But in order to arrive at the Christian God, one also needs revalation.

 

So when the Roman Catholic Church, having 1 billion members and the best theologians in the world, cannot prove bible God, I must say that I do not think the Christians here are able to do it either.

 

By the way: Since the Kalam Cosmological Argument has been discussed recently, I think it is worht to mention, that Kalam originally was used by Muslims to prove a God. :wicked:

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For the sake of argument, please exChristians whether you believe or not, let's just say that there is a creator.  My desire is to see a Christian PROVE, that said Creator is the one in the Judeo/Christian bible.

 

 

Good question Thankful. Christians spend all their time chipping away at the walls of science by exploiting ignorance in hopes of creating a larger god of the gaps. I look forward however to watching them try and defend their own position. Let's see if their defensive game is up to snuff now that you have taken the ball from them. There position is indefensible apart from the bible so I'll be surprised if any of them even attempt a response to this thread.

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Well, lets see if it can be proven. If it can't be proven, perhaps Invictus or some other christian can at least give some persuasive arguments. I know there is creator. But, there are just so many to choose from...

 

Invictus, care to join the discussion?

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Guest Rufus

oooh, this is tougher than the last one. I guess you would have to prove that all the other gods were false, that would mean comparing dates of manuscripts, numbers of manuscripts, age of belief, how many seperate writings there are about the god or gods etc. You'd never prove anything definitely, you never really can with historical criticism. I guess numbers of adherents could be used too. But it would have to be in a number of parts, you can't disprove one thing and conclude the whole religion is bunk.

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oooh, this is tougher than the last one. I guess you would have to prove that all the other gods were false, that would mean comparing dates of manuscripts, numbers of manuscripts, age of belief, how many seperate writings there are about the god or gods etc. You'd never prove anything definitely, you never really can with historical criticism. I guess numbers of adherents could be used too. But it would have to be in a number of parts, you can't disprove one thing and conclude the whole religion is bunk.

 

What are the differences between Greek, Roman , Egyptian & Constantine God(s)?

 

Why do all celebrate in the same manner, Dates, party's, (We can even go as far as Xmas Trees and Istar Eggs (Easter) Life and Death are the same, A god sleeping with a mortal to create a god-man for salvation. Underworld and Heaven, Good and evil are the same. Dying Half God/Man to save mankind.

 

Anubis weighed the hearts of men between good or evil to determine where you went in the afterlife. There is nothing what so ever separating these stories other then the names of god(s).

 

Even Constantine's Religion Christianity has it the same. Human sacrifice where you eat the god-man to become more like him. :crucified: It symbolizes Cannibalism, although followers don't particularly see it that way, it's what it is. They just call it a different name.

 

The gods all favor their particular followers and damn all objectors. None of these gods are different in theory. Some just have more gods then others. All these gods are controlled by earthly leaders, who because they control the gods control the people. There truly is nothing new under the sun (Son)

 

If you want to go by manuscripts and what not, you'll have to say the Egyptians who were before the Jews or the zoeatarians (sp?) were originals of good vs bad.

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I want to know what their evidence is for there being 1 God and not 300 Gods. I cannot count the number of times in conversation a Christian has said something along the lines of "and of course, it is logical to assume that monotheism is correct" without ever backing that up with anything.

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you can't disprove one thing and conclude the whole religion is bunk.

Actually, you can...

 

If it is proven that the Judeo-Christian God is NOT the Creator, then the whole religion (which is based on that very assumption) is bunk.

 

 

You don't believe me?

 

If J-C God wasn't the Creator, then the story of creation in the Bible is bunk. If the story of creation in the Bible is bunk, then the story of Adam and Eve is bunk. If Adam and Eve are bunk, then the Fall is bunk, the exile from Eden is bunk, the idea of sin is bunk, the whole "God needs to flood the world to get rid of evil" is bunk, the "let my people go" story is bunk, the exodus is bunk, the entire OT is bunk... There's no need for a saviour as everything before it is bunk, so the idea of Jesus paying for our sins is bunk, the idea of hell for not believing in Jesus is bunk, the whole NT is bunk...

 

If it can be proven that the J-C God is not the Creator, the whole religion becomes nothing more than a giant con-trick...

 

 

All that's needed is to prove that the J-C God, as described in the Bible, doesn't or cannot exist, and your religion falls apart... And the really ironic thing? it's already been done!

 

Why do you think so many Christians do their best to discredit people like us? It's so they can ignore the facts by attacking the messenger... :ugh:

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Guest Rufus

balls just lost my longer reply. I would have thought that most religions being similar would suggest they have all come from one source, so to find out which one is that source then we have to go by the historical criticism route, I feel. So no one, as far as I know, believes in the Greco-Roman gods, nor the Egyptian gods. So if we take the 3 majors Islam, Christianity and Judaism, well they all claim the same creation story and so to be the earliest. Hinduism, I believe has the oldest known manuscript but I'd have to look that up.

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oooh, this is tougher than the last one. I guess you would have to prove that all the other gods were false, that would mean comparing dates of manuscripts, numbers of manuscripts, age of belief, how many seperate writings there are about the god or gods etc. You'd never prove anything definitely, you never really can with historical criticism. I guess numbers of adherents could be used too. But it would have to be in a number of parts, you can't disprove one thing and conclude the whole religion is bunk.

 

What would "number of manuscripts" and "age of belief" have to do with whether or not a god is false? For that matter, how would "number of adherents" proove anything?

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balls just lost my longer reply.

 

 

Rufus,

 

What country are you from. You have used a couple of idioms I've never heard before today. TIA

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Guest Rufus

replied while I was dicking about, surely if you disproved creation as told in the Bible all you've done is disproved creation as told in the Bible. Nothing else. If the creation story is just that, then it doesn't mean Abram didn't exist, it just means th ecreation story is wrong. And I'm not sure that it has been disproved, abiogenesis hasn't been proved and evolution does not disclude creation. Creation in the Bible is a story, it's told in story form, God couldn't have made anything in 6 days because there weren't days.

 

OK also my computer went down (again!) so this is a bit late Soz

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yep th eBible refers to toher gods, doesn't say that they are real though does it? Or even imply they are.

Did I miss a memo about logic?

 

I'm sure it must have been changed, otherwise that doesn't make any sense...

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yep th eBible refers to toher gods, doesn't say that they are real though does it? Or even imply they are.

 

Um...didn't you read the quotes?

 

Exodus 1811 Now I know that the LORD is greater than all other gods, for he did this to those who had treated Israel arrogantly.

 

So...your God is greater then imaginary characters and this is something to boast about? Even I'm greater then imaginary gods. If it isn't implied that other gods exist, then why would this make any sense at all?

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Um...didn't you read the quotes? 

 

Exodus 1811 Now I know that the LORD is greater than all other gods, for he did this to those who had treated Israel arrogantly.

 

So...your God is greater then imaginary characters and this is something to boast about?  Even I'm greater then imaginary gods.  If it isn't implied that other gods exist, then why would this make any sense at all?

Shhhhh!

 

You're not allowed to use logic anymore... :twitch:

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To me, the question becomes, why is christianity any more valid than Greek, or Egyptian, or Persian mythology? (or about 1,000 others) Why should it be accepted as truth?

 

How do christians prove it? Without obtaining consensus that the bible is true, they cannot do anything but flounder.

 

They can't say that the miracles in the old testament prove it. All of the religions had equally incredible miracles, or better ones. They can't claim it by archaeology. If anything, archaeology disproves the bible. They can't prove it by extrabiblical historical documents. These too, disprove the bible.

 

I think most christians would answer that, well, our god isn't a myth. Jesus proved it by coming to earth and dying and resurrecting. Only thing is, there is a mountain of evidence proving that never happened.

 

Still waiting for invictus to appear.

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yep th eBible refers to toher gods, doesn't say that they are real though does it? Or even imply they are.

 

 

Sure it does. Who do you think your god is referring to in Gen. 1:26: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: ?

 

Him, Himself, and he? :lmao:

 

Not only that but I'm curious how you can consider yourself Judaeo-Christian when Christians and Jews Agree on almost nothing? Christians have a trinity god and Jews have a singular.

 

Christians focus on after life, Jews focus as Today and now. Food, Clothes, worship, forgiveness, hell, demons et al Jews and Christians have nothing in common as far as belief goes. Not even the commandments in the Torah is in agreement. Christians have 10 commandments Jews have 613, I'm all ears :dumbo:

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Shhhhh!

 

You're not allowed to use logic anymore... :twitch:

 

I just noticed your squirrel signature quote. It reminds me of the old comedy "They Call Me Bruce." The Bruce character in the Bruce Lee parody said:

 

"I am a sex object. When I ask women for sex, they object."

 

Ok, don't mean to hijack the thread here...

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If there were no other gods, then why was Jehovah so freakin jealous?

Why would a real god be jealous of imaginary ones?

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If there were no other gods, then why was Jehovah so freakin jealous?

Why would a real god be jealous of imaginary ones?

 

 

Don't also forget the Moses, Aaron & Pharos story when the greater god ate the lesser god (Staff/snakes) Ex. 7:10-12

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the only god i would somewhat choose to believe in is a god of cosmic energy. no thought or feeling, no power to decide or judge, just pure power that happened to spawn the universe (and would also leave way for evolution to run its course). that could be possible i suppose, but it would totally negate the whole sin/heaven/hell/jesus/angels/demons bs.. so yeah.. still Atheist. :shrug:

 

god would just be an almighty idiot so-to-speak.

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The Roman Catholic Church claims, that some kind of a God can be proved (cosmological arguments). According to Catholic thinking, Plato was as close to Christainity as one can get by using reason. But in order to arrive at the Christian God, one also needs revalation.

 

So when the Roman Catholic Church, having 1 billion members and the best theologians in the world, cannot prove bible God, I must say that I do not think the Christians here are able to do it either.

 

By the way: Since the Kalam Cosmological Argument has been discussed recently, I think it is worht to mention, that Kalam originally was used by Muslims to prove a God.  :wicked:

Well put. Let's become Muslims! :ugh: ... NOT!... :grin:

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oooh, this is tougher than the last one. I guess you would have to prove that all the other gods were false,

 

Hi Rufus. with regards to your statement here.

 

Not so. We do not ask that you disprove all of the other gods. We know that would be an overwhelming task, and absolutely not possible to do.

 

And we also know that you cannot prove yours.

 

How about just some rational reasoning that would make your God PROBABLE?

 

 

Is it just me, or is there a conspicuous shortage of christians diving head-first into this thread?

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