cmotdibbler Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 A bit ago there was talk about a gene (VMAT2) expressed in the brain that may predispose one to spirituality. Whether this pans out is beside the point and let's assume science will someday accurately determine whether a persons is spiritually-inclined or an atheist by genetic analysis. I am curious if believers out there would reconsider their faith if it could be shown that their basis for belief is based on the expression of gene X. Would atheists consider the theist view if it were shown they don't have the gene? As a fundamentalist you visit the prenatal clinic where it revealed that your unborn child will in fact be an atheist. Do you abort? What if you are an atheist and the child has the god gene? What say you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandora Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 I have read a lot about this and related topics. I think the only thing that will be discovered is that a gene or genes will predispose you to being spiritual and belief in God. I think it will be discoverd that the correlation is there, but that people without it can still be religious, but for other reasons-- like need for structure, political, etc... Just like certain genes predispose some to depression due to poor seratonin regulation, but not all develop it. Christians will turn the findings around and say that it is just another trial that God has given people, and that he didn't give it to those that couldnt handle it, so they are still responsible even if they don't have those genes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotdibbler Posted June 22, 2005 Author Share Posted June 22, 2005 Agreed, like most things involving something as squishy as human behavior there is almost always both a genetic and environmental component. I was just wondering how a christian would view their faith if it turned out to be due to an increase in dopamine receptors (or such). I do feel there is a certain genetic component for belief that may be related to some aspect of socialization and recognizing an authority figure. If you think about it, there must have been pretty strong selective pressure *against* an individual who fails to recognise an authority figure of early hominids. Once hominds were not fighting for their very existance this hominid-authority figure may have been eclipsed by some version of a deity, while the 98 pound weakling hominids view this as a golden opportunity to install themselves as speakers for the deity. Since another feature of many religions is to be prolific and start pumping out the kids this gene could spread rapidly through the population. I do think we will eventually get to the point of making some behavioral predictions based on genetics (with huge error bars!) and can only expect the fundamentalist to be outraged. I'd like to point out that all this talk about genes and god makes no statement about whether such a god exists let alone the flavor, just the belief in said god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 A bit ago there was talk about a gene (VMAT2) expressed in the brain that may predispose one to spirituality. Whether this pans out is beside the point and let's assume science will someday accurately determine whether a persons is spiritually-inclined or an atheist by genetic analysis. I am curious if believers out there would reconsider their faith if it could be shown that their basis for belief is based on the expression of gene X. Would atheists consider the theist view if it were shown they don't have the gene? As a fundamentalist you visit the prenatal clinic where it revealed that your unborn child will in fact be an atheist. Do you abort? What if you are an atheist and the child has the god gene? What say you? I believe it is so. The gene exists, and my problem is that it’s still active in my brain, so I’m a religious person without a religion. I wish I could believe in a God, and I can’t anymore, but I want to, but there’s nothing to believe in that makes sense. I’ve heard about this a while ago, and that’s the reason why I think a lot of people need religion to survive. If there only could be some religion that doesn’t kill everyone else in the name of the Lard! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 Madam, I think you're on the right path. My take on how evolution developed religion is that religion is in its essence a political tool. It binds people together in a group. It gives them common goals and ideas. It makes them follow common law and adhere to social structures. Why was this necessary in evolution? Because before the Police force and the Court system was invented, there was no way of making sure people would follow the rules that would help the group to survive. The only way to make people follow the social law, was by a higher entity (divine) was watching over you and you would look over your shoulder everytime you did something. That's just one of the explanations. I have a couple more. But I'll let the thread spin on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 Madam, maybe you don't have as strong "god module", so your built-in need is not that strong to have a faith. And then you shouldn't try to get one either. This is why I think everyone should find what they believe from within themselves. I've met people that have no need, what-so-ever, to have a belief, and then I've met people that can't live without one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSpooky Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 I think it'd be very very funny if fundies put forward that the genetic basis of supernaturalism makes them "right" but at the same time rejects the genetic basis for homosexuality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 I think it'd be very very funny if fundies put forward that the genetic basis of supernaturalism makes them "right" but at the same time rejects the genetic basis for homosexuality. Everything is possible for Gawd our Lard! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotdibbler Posted June 23, 2005 Author Share Posted June 23, 2005 I believe it is so. The gene exists, and my problem is that it’s still active in my brain, so I’m a religious person without a religion. I wish I could believe in a God, and I can’t anymore, but I want to, but there’s nothing to believe in that makes sense. I’ve heard about this a while ago, and that’s the reason why I think a lot of people need religion to survive. If there only could be some religion that doesn’t kill everyone else in the name of the Lard! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Sounds like you need an antidote! I think you are on the right track here, such a gene might exist that gives you the hankering for a god, however the existance of such a gene does not validate the existance of god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotdibbler Posted June 23, 2005 Author Share Posted June 23, 2005 I am glad this has been brought up, as I have actually been pondering this for the past week (coincidence?) but didn't know how to word or bring up the subject. Last year, during a bought of Christianity on my part, someone threw an article link at me on the "god module" discovered in the brain, which I tucked away in my memory for later use. Which got me thinking recently about genetic components to spiritual belief. Ironic that evolutionary theory can be applied to spiritual belief and religion popularity. Since religions tend to take hold of the population, it is highly likely that those who were not believers, may have been weeded out- either by being killed or being ostracized. They may not have been seen as suitable mates to those who had a religious belief- which is similar to today- so might not have had the same opportunities to reproduce offspring. Also, those with the strongest belief are often those who move up in their religions the quickest, and thus gain the most control. If the way in which many small cults (which are really nothing more than new religions) operate is any indication of how new religions operated from the beginning of religious development in humans, then it is very likely that the spiritual leaders had the most opportunities to mate or might have had exclusive mating rights with a large majority of the females in the population. Let's also not forget that religions tend to push large family sizes. For instance, Catholics who have a no-birth control belief (gaining popularity among other fundy denoms too) will procreate roughly 2-4 times the amount an average family will produce. Look at Utah, the Mormon population there has not grown on conversions alone. Mormons have large family sizes and as the proportion of Mormons grow, the more likely it will be for Mormon singles to find mates and less likely for non-Mormon singles. Then again, religion is strongly environmental, often being ingrained from the time of birth. And even those who say their families were not religious, are constantly bombarded with messages pertaining to their regions most prevalant religious belief- which is why they will automatically associate "god" to the popular ideology of God in their given community. So it is very likely that if there is a "god gene" and let's say it is found in the majority of the population, it is still likely that those without will join a religion for traditional/community/family purposes or from high stress/fear factors. It is also probable that those with the god gene who have no formal religion, will make up a kind of spirituality for themselves- new age conglomeration. Leaving a very small porition of the population to be atheistic by both genes and environment. Wow, I guess I had alot of musings on that subject. Probably someone with a much, much better scientific, historic and statistical background could do a better job. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I posted this question/scenario about a god gene in response to a post on another board where a theist claimed that science does not dabble in spirituality. At one point this may have been true but science is now squeezing god into a smaller and smaller box. However scientific research that claims genetic factors for behavior or traits will face a difficult challenge. Any kind of research that claims a genetic relationship to intelligence, deviant behavior, mental illness, etc will eventually result in someone lumping the data into racial groups and then the knives come out. But I do think a god gene exists that gives an individual a predisposition to belief in the local deity. I might get flamed for this but for fun I used to point out male fundamentalist christians based soley on appearance or a quick greeting and was correct perhaps 70% of the time. There just seemed to be something in the facial features and hair that triggered it (no, it wasn't a bible tucked under the arm!). Was not as accurate detecting fundy wimmin. I better leave it at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 25, 2005 Share Posted June 25, 2005 Sounds like you need an antidote! I think you are on the right track here, such a gene might exist that gives you the hankering for a god, however the existance of such a gene does not validate the existance of god. Most definitely. Philosophy is my new religion, and Ex-C is my new church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spamandham Posted June 26, 2005 Share Posted June 26, 2005 I am highly skeptical of a 'god' gene or genes. I suspect that religion (and politics) are taking advantage of some traits that have nothing to do with either per se. Humans clearly have a heard instinct. This likely evolved during the tribal phase of humanity (basically, the entire history of humanity except for the last small percent) I'd guess. We also have an instinct to assume causal relationships where correlation is observed. Most of us are gullible as hell and will believe almost anything we are told as long it does not contradict what we already know. This may be a subfeature of the tribal instinct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 26, 2005 Share Posted June 26, 2005 I am highly skeptical of a 'god' gene or genes. I suspect that religion (and politics) are taking advantage of some traits that have nothing to do with either per se. Humans clearly have a heard instinct. This likely evolved during the tribal phase of humanity (basically, the entire history of humanity except for the last small percent) I'd guess. We also have an instinct to assume causal relationships where correlation is observed. Most of us are gullible as hell and will believe almost anything we are told as long it does not contradict what we already know. This may be a subfeature of the tribal instinct. I’m not arguing against you, but just adding a little piece of info. If there is a part that requires the belief is definitely not established. But there is a part of the brain that gives you the feeling of “the presence of God”. There have been a couple of experiments where they trigger this part and people get the feeling of having the holy spook or god being there. Maybe if we can trigger that part without having a religion, we could get closer to a solution? It can be done with drugs… Aaah! I know… the Anti-Religion Drug! We can call it ARx… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted June 26, 2005 Share Posted June 26, 2005 Maybe if we can trigger that part without having a religion, we could get closer to a solution? It can be done with drugs… Aaah! I know… the Anti-Religion Drug! We can through meditation. It's called an altered state of consciousness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest samurai_cowboy Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 Research on out-of-body experiences (which can be induced by electric or electromagnetic stimulation of the right temporal lobe, or by anaesthetic drugs such as Ketamine[known as Special K on the street]) seem to demonstrate that feelings of intense spirituality, as well as auditory and visual hallucinations (of the voice- and visions-of-god types) are a function of a very specific portion of the brain. Epilepsy of the temporal lobe has been historically marked by the excessive religiousity of its sufferers. The hardware for religion/spirituality is there. But that's all it is. A bunch of neurons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 Epilepsy of the temporal lobe has been historically marked by the excessive religiousity of its sufferers. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Epilepsy of the temporal lobe? No shit? I wonder if that can also cause the person to see a flash of light and hear voices? hmm. Be funny wouldn't it, if the whole world was wrapped up in a religion started by a bout with temporal lobe epilepsy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TruthWarrior Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 Epilepsy of the temporal lobe has been historically marked by the excessive religiousity of its sufferers. Wow! My fundy friend who converted me and my friends to christianity had epilepsy. He is very religious, supposedly saw visions too, and did the whole speaking in tongues thing and other "godly" gifts. He said he used to get siezures as a child but after medication hasnt had any since then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 Epilepsy of the temporal lobe? No shit? I wonder if that can also cause the person to see a flash of light and hear voices? hmm. Be funny wouldn't it, if the whole world was wrapped up in a religion started by a bout with temporal lobe epilepsy. I read that somewhere recently. Pauls description of the light etc, was epileptic episode. Same thing with Mohammed, he was falling to the ground, twisting and mumbling, that's why he never wrote anything himself, because people around him picked up leafs, stones, wood pieces to write on what he said during his episodes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spamandham Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 That's fascinating. I just did some light reading on the topic, and found not only do the visions of heaven a lot of people claim to have had sound dead on like the symptoms of this, but there is a version of it that is genetic as well, meaning it runs in some families. Alien vistitations, demon posession, psychic powers, etc. often run in families. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TruthWarrior Posted July 16, 2005 Share Posted July 16, 2005 That's fascinating. I just did some light reading on the topic, and found not only do the visions of heaven a lot of people claim to have had sound dead on like the symptoms of this, but there is a version of it that is genetic as well, meaning it runs in some families. Alien vistitations, demon posession, psychic powers, etc. often run in families. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Haha! The mother of my fundy friend who has epilisy claimed to have had alien visitations too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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