Hurt By Friends

[4truth]

Three months ago I left Christianity after spending my entire 49 years in it. I didn't expect my friends to like it or understand it, but I guess I thought they would still be my friends. Instead, they are acting like I am disgusting and evil. Some of them have been friends for 20 years and we have been through a lot together. It really hurts to have them desert me. I am ashamed to have been part of such a judgmental, shallow religion for so long.

[perianwalsh]

start a new life.i mean you cant change the way what they think,unless they do..i know-49 years is long-but maybe you can get some money,and start it over your life again.if you want -the only way they knew you are not evil is by they seeing your actions and deeds.

[twincats]

I'm sorry to hear about your bad experience! I encourage you to take solace here as much as you need to and to try to move on in your personal relationships. Perhaps time will mellow the attitudes of your old friends, that sometimes happens. In the meantime, perhaps you could find some freethinkers to associate with.

 

I didn't tell my family of my deconversion because I live so far from most of them and don't want to carry on pointless long-distance arguments where they try to get me "back in the fold." I look at it sort of the same way I look at why I don't talk politics with my right-wing relatives; it keeps correspondence and visits amiable and stress-free. We all love each other and have plenty of other things to talk about.

 

I was lucky in that most of my friends were pagans when I deconverted. I did the pagan thing for a while, but now I consider myself an agnostic pagan. My husband and friends know this and we all respect each other's views. Granted, it's a lot easier with pagans since they believe everyone goes to the same afterlife anyway, no matter what you believe.

 

Good luck to you, 4Truth!

[michie_s]

I'm sorry to hear of your experience but not surprised. It's the way of fundie xians to turn their back on people they know and love because it's what they believe god and the buybull tells them. But it still hurts!

 

I lost many close friends when I left the fundie church behind. Unfortunately, it's par for the course. Some don't want to be influenced by you or have your challenge their beliefs, some think that non belief is a disease that will spread so they avoid you. Whatever the case may be, you have to let them be. You won't change their mind so easily if at all.

 

I tried to remain friends with people after I left that church, but I was banging my head against a wall, and the discomfort when I was around them or tried to talk to them was too much. It became too one sided, with me doing all the work to maintain the friendship. Eventually we just drifted apart.

 

I'd suggest you try to find others with similar views as yourself now, perhaps join a group, volunteer or get to know people here and elsewhere who can support you and like you for who you are, not for which god you do/don't worship.

[Deva]

I'd suggest you try to find others with similar views as yourself now, perhaps join a group, volunteer or get to know people here and elsewhere who can support you and like you for who you are, not for which god you do/don't worship.

 

 

Good advice here. I was in and out of several churches and 7 years later only have one friend who attended church with me. This person is really a pagan at heart and reads the Bible only as a metaphor, never literally. I think my friend only continues to attend church for the aesthetic and limited social value. I can feel free to discuss all philosophical and religious matters with her and that is truly valuable.

 

It is very sad but not at all surprising to me that all your friends have turned against you. It does hurt, but try to look at this as a new beginning and a newfound freedom. Try not to feel ashamed of your past involvement in this religion, but instead look at the present, and a new future ahead of you.

[Amethyst]

*Hugs*

 

Such people are not real friends. Your real friends are those who like and accept you for who you are, no matter what the state of your religious beliefs are.

[angel.white]

That sucks, but I guess they have their beliefs as you have yours.

 

I've been fortunate enough to have alot of friends who are pretty accepting, and don't typically give me much crap about it, though I also try to generally not give them crap about their beliefs either.

 

I did accidentally offend them one time when I dropped my cigarette and said "jesus fucking christ" before I thought about it :/ But thats life, keep your eye to the future, living in the past will only depress you.

[4truth]

*Hugs*

 

Such people are not real friends. Your real friends are those who like and accept you for who you are, no matter what the state of your religious beliefs are.

 

That's true; it's just a hard thing to find out. After 20+ years of friendship, being there for each other through infertility, births of our children, illnesses, job losses, the death of a child, raising teenagers.... you'd think I would be a little more valued. Very sad. I appreciate the support here. It's also sad that a group of people I have never met would be better friends to me.

 

Thankfully I am meeting new people and am starting to develop new relationships. I'm just grieving the loss of people I care about who I thought cared about me.

[Godless Wonder]

*Hugs*

 

Such people are not real friends. Your real friends are those who like and accept you for who you are, no matter what the state of your religious beliefs are.

I disagree. They most likely _were_ real friends, and that is what makes it all the more a tragedy. Religion is just so powerful it can destroy real friendships, even love, and we all know from too many examples, marriages. Saying "ah, well, they weren't real friends" underestimates the power of religion and denigrates people unnecessarily. It is as obnoxious as those who say, "ah, well, you were never a real Christian." They were likely real friends under the thrall of a religion more powerful than the friendship. Just because you (and I) think religion is stupid is no reason to think that anyone who values it above friendship wasn't a real friend -- they may have been a real -- but not smart-(or-educated)-enough-to-escape-from-religion-(just yet) friend. The tragedy is twofold. The abandoning friend almost certainly didn't enjoy the abandoning, just as the abandoned friend didn't enjoy being abandoned. The abandoner most likely simply thought that this is what was required of them by their religion, by which they were too cowed to contemplate rebellion.

[NearlyInsane]

The abandoning friend almost certainly didn't enjoy the abandoning, just as the abandoned friend didn't enjoy being abandoned. The abandoner most likely simply thought that this is what was required of them by their religion, by which they were too cowed to contemplate rebellion.

I think it's more likely this happens because of fear. Most of the hard-core believers are scared shitless of going to hell - that's why they're so hard core. My mom is like that. She's afraid of her own thoughts, & raised me to be the same way. Didn't work out real well, since I was a born philosopher - I want to know everything; I question everything. That fear-of-thought didn't keep me from thinking, it just gave me a ridiculous amount of anxiety (I was lots of fun at parties - watch the geek hyperventilate, everyone.). Anyhoo... point is, the one thing she's most terrified of in the world is having some "outside influence" convince her of some "evil" & "turn her away from god." She believes this so rigidly, that she's convinced that anyone who stops believing what SHE believes was led down some evil path (naturally anyone who stops believing something else in order to START believing her way has "seen the light" ). And she fully believes that this could happen to her if she let down her guard for one second. I found out just how rigid this belief was when I dared to tell her my Spanish teacher at school said he didn't believe people went to hell for having the wrong religion - that really set her off. She freaked out & ranted about how people like that would "lead me astray". So instead of wondering why a friend suddenly changed their beliefs after so many years, I'm quite sure she would be terrified of "being led down the same road" or some such crap & run for the hills. And the more fervent a believer you were, the more it would terrify her, because if it could happen to you it could happen to her.

 

In fact, I think that's why she's dealt with my apostacy as well as she had. I was never the model christian - although I was certainly more true to myself. I fully believed in everything my mom told me (at one time), but I was never fond of going to church, except maybe when I was very young. I had no problem being "good", but I always had problems with the dogma - it didn't make sense & I needed it to make sense. I needed those conflicts resolved, & no one seemed to understand that. So once I was on my own, I ditched the church scene, & that couldn't have been a surprise to anyone. And after years of refusing to attend church, my announcement of disbelief wouldn't have had quite the same effect as someone who'd been there regularly for 20 years or so.

[Robbobrob]

It is awful when you think you have a strong bond with people, but it was not a real freindship, it was just a friendship of convenience (like most people have at work or school).

 

Hope you find a better sort of people to hang out with, people with more in common with.

[white_raven23]

It's frequently shocking to me that friends (or what you thought were friends) could so easily turn their backs on years of "friendship". I know real friendship sure doesn't work that way.....makes you sad to realize you may have had 20 or so years of mere "association" with people you thought valued you as much as you valued them.

 

It's sad, but it sure emphasizes just how much of your time has been wasted on smoke and mirrors belief. Not even the friends are real!

[Sparrow]

Three months ago I left Christianity after spending my entire 49 years in it. I didn't expect my friends to like it or understand it, but I guess I thought they would still be my friends. Instead, they are acting like I am disgusting and evil. Some of them have been friends for 20 years and we have been through a lot together. It really hurts to have them desert me. I am ashamed to have been part of such a judgmental, shallow religion for so long.

 

Wow 4truth!

 

That’s really horrible. I’m really sorry this happened to you and I think that it was dastardly and downright shameful that they did this to you.

 

I’ve heard of this before and experienced something similar, but it nevertheless, always makes me sick to the stomach when I see of it or hear of it again and again and again.

 

In my mind this hints at one of the very basic problems of the abrahamic religions themselves.

 

I believe these people ended the friendships because of what went on in their heads. I’m sure it went something like -> they were frightened of “what god would think of them mixing with an atheist” –> then they thought that “god would not like them for mixing with an atheist” -> then they thought “god will not give me my reward of everlasting life if I mix with and atheist, which he doesn’t like”- then “end the friendship!”

 

Essentially, since their most basic existential fears (i.e. fear of discontinuity of life) are threatened by your very presence, you were made outcast. Sadly, this illustrates the basic cowardice of the belief itself, and its’ ability to corrupt even the most steadfast friendship.

 

“Belief” plays on that human weakness called “cowardice”. I’m sorry you had to experience this. You as a human being deserve better and more.

 

All the best for the future.

 

Spatz

[Guest _mike]

I'm sorry to hear about the way your friends reacted to you no longer believing as they do. But this is typical of Christians in general, and not just your friends. It's a shame that Christianity prevents them from behaving otherwise. I mean think about Christian dogma. It commands them to behave as such to those who have recanted from the Faith. Paul, for example, writes, "We command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us" (2 Thessalonians 3:6)! Now that you are out of Christianity, you can understand how abhorrent the religion truly is. You can think on your own now and you can disagree with such absurd dogma. Your friends may be good people, and they may truly appreciate and care for you, yet I believe that their goodness may be overshadowed by the disgusting teachings of their religion. Even though I believe that a true friendship should last regardless of your personal beliefs, being based on personal interactions rather than statements of faith, I also believe that such a strong brainwashing mechanism as Christianity could prevent these friendships from being complete and proper. Christianity is in part to blame here. Just enjoy the fact that you can see the true evils of this religion now. And from experience, I've noticed that Christian friends often need some time to adjust to your changed state, so give them the time, and if they don't adjust, it usually means that they are not who you thought they were. But even then, there is no need to get too down. You can still have a good life and meet new people, who like you for you.

[Godless Wonder]

The abandoning friend almost certainly didn't enjoy the abandoning, just as the abandoned friend didn't enjoy being abandoned. The abandoner most likely simply thought that this is what was required of them by their religion, by which they were too cowed to contemplate rebellion.

I think it's more likely this happens because of fear.

Not to be obnoxiously pedantic, but I thought that's _what "cowed" means_.

 

(rest of this post not specifically aimed at NearlyInsane)

 

Which is more terrible: That religion can turn real friends against you, or that religion makes fake friends seem like real friedns, until the religion is tested?

 

Which is more true?

 

I still maintain these people were real friends, far more real than Jesus, for instance. They at least have the decency of actually existing. In what way is this different than friends parting ways over other differences, say, a love triangle, or political differences which are too unreconcilable (e.g. your best friend slowly transforms into say, a Nazi... and you abandon him. Were you "never really his friend."? I think that's revisionist. You were his friend -- really -- and ceased to be. It happens.)

 

So I say, far more likely, these Christians really were friends, but ceased to be, for reasons of their own, good or bad -- most likely bad -- same as the bad reasons they claim to be the cause of their Christianity. The "they were never real friends" line to me just _reeks_ of the no true scotsman fallacy, Of course they were real friends. They exist. They were your friends, but no longer are. Had you remained a Christian, they'd be your friends still. The reasons for cease-of-friendship, be they good, bad, or completely insane, in no way negate the existence of prior friendship. By the logic which says they were not "real" friends, people with beliefs you find hateful or absurd are incapable of having "real" friends, in that any person who, once considered a "real friend" may be declared "never was a real friend" the moment they change their opiinions about whatever is the sensitive topic (Christianity in this case). You really want to argue that Christians are incapable of having real friends? Not an argument I'd like to have to try to back up.

 

The "they were never real friends" line also implies that these people were deceitful, that they were merely pretending to be friends, when really they weren't. I don't think there's evidence for this. I think these people are, in the majority of cases, sincere, in their friendships, and their beliefs, and in their withdrawal of friendships. They think they are doing the right thing. Their idea of the "right thing" is warped by their religion, and makes them behave rather badly.

 

I simply argue that in many cases, religion is simply stronger than friendship, even family. Religion is thicker than blood.

[4truth]

Godless Wonder, I appreciate your perspective. I hadn't thought of it like that, but it actually does make me feel better to think that our friendships were genuine. It makes sense to me that their religion overpowered the friendship, after all, God has to be #1 and I'm denying his very existence. It is also true that according to the Bible this is how they are told to treat me, sad as that is. Even though I still feel hurt by their reaction, I like feeling that those years of friendship were not a waste.

 

I think too that from their perspective I betrayed them. Jesus was the center of our lives, I was part of the family, and then I abandoned the whole thing. My actions invalidate their core beliefs. By leaving I was basically saying that their whole reason for existence was a joke.

[Godless Wonder]

Hmm, synthesizing a few ideas....

 

If, as I said above, "religion is stronger than blood"...

 

This is a remarkable thing. "blood" is "strong" -- meaning one 'likes" (protects, has an affinity for, helps out) ones kin -- due to evolutionary pressure, "blood" by definition being shorthand for heredity. The remarkable part is that a non-heritable trait should be preferred over a heritable one in any sort of general way. And it occurs to me of course that religion, while not heritable in the usual way (via DNA) very much is heritable via another way -- via culture. The child is almost invariably indoctrinated into the relgion of his or her parents. For most practical purposes, religion may as well be inherited via DNA, for all the difference it would make. And religion being a "practically inherited" trait, I expect it's subject to the usual evolutionary pressures, strange as those may be (mate selection, getting wrapped around the axle of sex, etc.) Hmm, I have Pascal Boyer's book, I probably should read it one of these days.

 

Hmm, sorry for the digression, I thought I was having a bit of a profound thought, but reading what I wrote, eh, rather pedestrian, usual stuff, nothing much new I expect.

[angel.white]

Don't hate the puppet, hate the puppeteer!

[NearlyInsane]

The abandoning friend almost certainly didn't enjoy the abandoning, just as the abandoned friend didn't enjoy being abandoned. The abandoner most likely simply thought that this is what was required of them by their religion, by which they were too cowed to contemplate rebellion.

I think it's more likely this happens because of fear.

Not to be obnoxiously pedantic, but I thought that's _what "cowed" means_.

It's what they're afraid of that I'm taking issue with. In my religion, if someone left the faith, they weren't to be abandoned. We were supposed to keep loving them & being friends with the hope of somehow getting them back into the faith. Especially if it's a group of xians & one has left. The only 'rule' we had about hanging out w/ non-believers was to not be alone in a group of them. As long as the numbers were even or favored believers, all was cool.

 

If someone left the faith who had been there for years, & everyone ran from them like the plague, I'd say it was because they were afraid of whatever made that person lose faith. If it could happen to THAT person, it could happen to me!! Like it's contagious.

 

Of course it depends on your specific cult, church, teachings, etc. I've never heard of anyone being told to abandon a church friend because they stopped believing (in my church years), so I was throwing what I know from my experiences into the mix.

[4truth]

I looked up the official statement from the constitution of my old church on "Discipline of Members." It says "If any member of the church is found to be living or teaching contrary to the Word of God and the Statement of Faith of this church, he shall be counseled in love by the Pastor and the Elders. If efforts to bring repentance and restoration fail, then the elders will follow the procedures outlined in the following passages of Scripture...". The passages include "If he refuses to listen to the church, treat him like a pagan or tax collector. (which is really pretty funny)" and "hand this man over to Satan so that the sinful nature will be destroyed and his spirit saved in the name of the Lord."

 

When I left the church I formally withdrew my membership so that I wouldn't be subject to church discipline. It really is pretty nasty. There is a special meeting where your sins and lack of repentance are told to the congregation. They are then told that they should minimize contact with the offending member, really only talking about repentance. One of the passages they use to justify it is 2 Thess. 3:13- "If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of him. Do not associate with him, in order that he may feel ashamed." I guess Paul never studied psychology. Being shunned doesn't make me feel ashamed and want to crawl back on my knees; it makes me want to run away screaming at the idiocy.

 

Anyway, long explanation but I was naive to think I could avoid the whole ugly mess by withdrawing my membership. Even though I managed to avoid a formal, public order to be shunned,I guess they feel they still need to treat me the same. I should have realized that the archaic teaching of that church would still be followed.

[NearlyInsane]

Can you choose between pagan & tax collector?

 

 

Yeah, I never knew what a dick Paul was till my then-hubby started going to an apostolic church. He had more rules than the IRS...

[Deva]

Wow 4truth, I had no idea that you were subject to a formal shunning meeting. I have heard of such churches but never encountered anyone who belonged to one. Surely no one would blame you for trying to avoid such a thing. No need to think you were naive. I would run like hell if I had belonged to something like that! No wonder you are having such a time with former friends. Look, there is a whole world out there that will value you for the person you are.

 

What really gets me is the phrase "counselled in love by the Pastor, etc." Yeah, sure, just try to browbeat the person into coming back. Who needs it?

 

I am sure it is not easy, but just get out. This is all just so sad, but it is a new life for you now.

[angel.white]

I looked up the official statement from the constitution of my old church on "Discipline of Members." It says "If any member of the church is found to be living or teaching contrary to the Word of God and the Statement of Faith of this church, he shall be counseled in love by the Pastor and the Elders. If efforts to bring repentance and restoration fail, then the elders will follow the procedures outlined in the following passages of Scripture...". The passages include "If he refuses to listen to the church, treat him like a pagan or tax collector. (which is really pretty funny)" and "hand this man over to Satan so that the sinful nature will be destroyed and his spirit saved in the name of the Lord."

Taken from:

Matthew 18:15-17 "If your brother sins against you,[a] go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

[Curtdude]

There's not much I can add intellectually to this topic (mike said it pretty well), but I'll add that it continues to be a painful part of my life to have lost good friends who are so brainwashed in a religion that they will wilfully abandon those they love in the name of obedience to their god.

 

Once in awhile one of my old buds from my God Days will call, but more often than not, it's me who initiates contact. I think that they are conflicted about the "no association" scriptures, but they obey them nonetheless. We chat. That's it. They make no effort to be friends.

 

Sorry, 4truth, that you are going through this. I can emphathize completely and can only offer my support via this website. I hope you can make equally strong connections with those who share a more humane outlook on life, rather than slavishly following a "holy" book that commands them to abandon their friends when their friends become apostates.

 

I guess that verse in John 15:13: "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends" only applies if those friends are in agreement about the deity of christ and all the rest of the stupid dogma.