Human History And Natural Evil

[Guest Geese Aplenty]

Please help me with this. I feel like I'm going NUTS.

 

If the Bible is true, then Eden had to occur when language was in existence, correct? All four characters spoke to each other, and hence language would have to have been in existence.

 

When did language arise? Wasn't it 10,000 or so years ago when civilization began to take root? Doesn't that mean the Fall happened around that time?

 

So if the Bible began as oral history 10,000 or so years ago, presumably shorty after Eden, but we see species of human beings like Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon TENS OF THOUSANDS OF YEARS prior to the existence of language, isn't that a huge biblical problem? Calamity and predation existed at that time, which can only mean one thing: human beings died from such things back then. So where does this idea that man introduced death come from??? The evidence clearly shows that man existed back then and died in natural disasters and from predation!

 

I'm seriously going nuts because it seems so obviously to me. Please tell me where I am erring! I want to hammer these pro-lifers on the "God hates baby suffering" canard. If god hates the idea of suffering babies, how come they died so early? How come they were allowed to be sabre-tooth tiger food prior to the Fall? Moreover, if the Fall did occur prior to early man, how does that make sense? Early man had a primitive brain and was merely concerned about one thing: survival. Just to remain living was a daily chore. Morality needs intelligence to exist, no?

 

HELP!

[Dhampir]

When did language arise? Wasn't it 10,000 or so years ago when civilization began to take root? Doesn't that mean the Fall happened around that time?

I would assume it began much earlier than that, like 30k or so.

 

I would also assume that the bible as oral tradition probably started closer to 3000 or so b.c., but I wager mwc has more accurate numbers. I'm just saying mine are way closer than yours. Anyway, the framers of the creation/garden of Eden story had no idea just how far back human existence stretched. They were probably incapable of remembering more than 5 or six generations, and were at best aware of maybe 20 or so. The GOE story, contrary to what anyone nowadays says about it, was probably to be taken as literally as any other such story, from any other religion, therefore, its just a bunch of crap designed for people who needed answers NOW.

 

Think about it: What does the GOE story do? It answers the questions 1. Where do we come from? 2. How did we get here? 3. Why is there killing and death in the world?

And, it wraps these answers in a neat little moral fairytale. Because even though snakes talked in it, it's still what really happened.

 

If god hates baby suffering, then why did he drown millions of them in the flood? Don't let them get away with saying he spirited them away, the bible is very clear when describing the personality, desires and actions of god; if god cared, it would be so noted. What about the stories of biblical genocide where god orders his people to slaughter children and pregnant women?

 

Hey, if god hates baby suffering, then why do 2/3 of all pregnancies end in spontaneous (automatic) abortion? Throw that one at the pro-life crowd.

[Guest Geese Aplenty]

Please help me with this. I feel like I'm going NUTS.

 

If the Bible is true, then Eden had to occur when language was in existence, correct? All four characters spoke to each other, and hence language would have to have been in existence.

 

When did language arise? Wasn't it 10,000 or so years ago when civilization began to take root? Doesn't that mean the Fall happened around that time?

 

So if the Bible began as oral history 10,000 or so years ago, presumably shorty after Eden, but we see species of human beings like Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon TENS OF THOUSANDS OF YEARS prior to the existence of language, isn't that a huge biblical problem? Calamity and predation existed at that time, which can only mean one thing: human beings died from such things back then. So where does this idea that man introduced death come from??? The evidence clearly shows that man existed back then and died in natural disasters and from predation!

 

I'm seriously going nuts because it seems so obviously to me. Please tell me where I am erring! I want to hammer these pro-lifers on the "God hates baby suffering" canard. If god hates the idea of suffering babies, how come they died so early? How come they were allowed to be sabre-tooth tiger food prior to the Fall? Moreover, if the Fall did occur prior to early man, how does that make sense? Early man had a primitive brain and was merely concerned about one thing: survival. Just to remain living was a daily chore. Morality needs intelligence to exist, no?

 

HELP!

 

 

Thank you. What's more compelling to me is the suffering that preceded some imagined Fall. That's what I want to explore. If I can hammer them on this obvious fact, then I can really create some cognitive dissonance in them. They have all kinds of rationalizations for post Fall suffering. Let's see them defend pre-Fall suffering! I feel like this might be their Achille's heel, but I want to make sure there are no holes in my argument.

 

Let's say I'm talking to a reasonable Christian who believes in evolution, but they also believe in the Fall. Knowing what I said about primitive man having limited intelligence and being concerned merely with survival, can I demonstrate the complete absurdity of their beliefs on the origins of sin and evil? Babies would have to have suffered and died prior to any Fall, because language hadn't arisen until, as you say, 30,000 years ago.

[Dhampir]

What I don't quite get is exactly how a person can believe both in evolution, and that the garden of eden story is literal. Those two beliefs seem rather incompatible. At best, one could believe that god had a hand in evolution, but that man began to act in ways distasteful to him, necessitating the eventual intervention by way of Jesus. If you could clarify what you mean, that would be great.

[junkpoet]

Please help me with this. I feel like I'm going NUTS.

 

If the Bible is true, then Eden had to occur when language was in existence, correct? All four characters spoke to each other, and hence language would have to have been in existence.

 

When did language arise? Wasn't it 10,000 or so years ago when civilization began to take root? Doesn't that mean the Fall happened around that time?

 

So if the Bible began as oral history 10,000 or so years ago, presumably shorty after Eden, but we see species of human beings like Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon TENS OF THOUSANDS OF YEARS prior to the existence of language, isn't that a huge biblical problem? Calamity and predation existed at that time, which can only mean one thing: human beings died from such things back then. So where does this idea that man introduced death come from??? The evidence clearly shows that man existed back then and died in natural disasters and from predation!

 

I'm seriously going nuts because it seems so obviously to me. Please tell me where I am erring! I want to hammer these pro-lifers on the "God hates baby suffering" canard. If god hates the idea of suffering babies, how come they died so early? How come they were allowed to be sabre-tooth tiger food prior to the Fall? Moreover, if the Fall did occur prior to early man, how does that make sense? Early man had a primitive brain and was merely concerned about one thing: survival. Just to remain living was a daily chore. Morality needs intelligence to exist, no?

 

HELP!

Anatomically modern humans first appear in the fossil record 200,000 years ago in Ethiopia. However, though modern in anatomy, these humans continued to behave just as the hominids who existed before. They used the same crude stones and hunted inefficiently. However, starting at about 100,000 years ago, evidence of more sophisticated behaviour begins to emerge, and by 50,000 years ago fully modern behaviour is noted in various parts of Africa[14]. Stone tools now show regular patterns that are reproduced or duplicated with more precision. Tools made of bone and antler appear for the first time. After 50,000 years Klein notes that he could easily sort the human artifacts into many different categories, such as projectile points, engraving tools, knife blades, and drilling and piercing tools. These new stone tool types have been described as being distinctly differentiated from each other, as if each tool had a specific name. Teaching offspring how to manufacture such detailed tools would have required complex language. (wik)

 

so...are you trying to discuss this with a fundy or a more liberal christian?

[Deva]

They have all kinds of rationalizations for post Fall suffering. Let's see them defend pre-Fall suffering! I feel like this might be their Achille's heel, but I want to make sure there are no holes in my argument.

 

Geese Aplenty: I think you are on the right track here. The problem of evil, (hence suffering) is the true Achille's heel of Chrisianity. The simply cannot make it work.