Letting Off Steam

[R. S. Martin]

I wrote a letter for a fomer prof. I don't have my degree yet so I'm probably better off not sending it as is. But I have to let steam off somewhere so I'll post it here. Here goes:

 

I have a question, as always, and I am not sure how important it is. Nor do I know what your schedule and responsibilities are like now that we are heading into a new semester. I was unable to finish my comprehensive paper as planned and am now aiming at finishing by April next spring. I remember your repeated statement that faith is not logical. I grew up with that teaching. One preacher used to emphasize: Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. However, I have always thought it should make sense in one's brain and that we are supposed to derive enough understanding from the Bible to make it hang together logically even though we don't understand all the details. Just now I came across a statement by Charles Hodge. He is talking about miracles and faith. He refers to "the nature

of faith as a conviction of things not seen on adequate testimony." I never heard that faith is supposed to be a conviction based on inadequate testimony. Is that what is normally indicated?

 

Maybe I shouldn't raise the issue because that leads to the next question. Jesus said to use our talents. If we are given brains and the talent of intellect, how can we refrain from pursuing intellectual logic to its logical conclusion? I guess I just can't and that is where my problem comes in. I wonder what I am missing when so many other very intelligent people can live this way and just accept things that make no sense and don't hang together. My conviction is that if I accept something as truth on inadequate testimony then I am jumping off a cliff--and there is probably no trampoline at the bottom for me to land on.

 

That's what I have written so far. There's more where that comes from. However, I will probably be best off to scrap the entire last paragraph of what I've written and just let it hang with the question--as though I really am rather stupid and can't think things through properly. My other prof indicated that I am rather intimidating and indicate that people are stupid. He was extremely subtle about it and it took me a lot of hours to figure out that he personally felt intimidated. So I think I'd better be careful how I stir the pot at this point.

 

 

Is it ever horrible having to play politics at this level. These guys have twice the education I do--how can they be intimidated by a little girl like me? Or is that the problem--I'm a girl and they're supposed to be big tough boys? I dunno.

[Oldjew]

I think you really ought to send it. I sent a letter to Dateline lambasting Chris Hanson as a scumbag and it returned as not a the right address so I sent a nice letter at another email address at the same Dateline address and it did not return so I knew the first one also went through and it was just a cop out.

[R. S. Martin]

Maybe after I get my degree. There's quite a bit at stake so I don't want to jeopardize that.

[GraphicsGuy]

I don't see anything unreasonable in the letter and you certainly aren't following an emotional tangent...is this Prof too much of a fundie to accept logical arguing in any pretext?

[R. S. Martin]

When I was in his class I got the feeling that challenging his beliefs beyond a certain point was not okay. To tell an academic to his face that his ideas and arguments don't hang together is probably about the most insulting thing you can say. It's an attack on their scholarship and amounts to saying, "You're stupid." Even though it might be true, saying so to a person who can impact your future is not normally a good idea.

 

It's all logic and reason for us but for him it's a challenge to the very foundation of his faith. I sent the first part but not the last paragraph. Haven't heard back yet. Maybe he's busy; maybe he thinks I'm out to trip him up. Like that crazy Mr. J we had on here in the Lion's Den. J imagined all our questions were rhetorical questions that deserved no answers. This prof's church is not what is normally considered fundy but sometimes I felt his attitude was cut and dry and his thinking black and white. I never liked him much.

[Mankey]

RubySera:

Is it ever horrible having to play politics at this level. These guys have twice the education I do--how can they be intimidated by a little girl like me?

It don't matter how many degrees a person has. If they are being illogical you can catch them contradicting themselves and resorting to other logical fallacies. You don't need to know all that they might know to catch them.

 

I think you are highly intelligent and not just educated. I think that you can hold your own just fine. You are still my hero.

 

[Mongo]

These guys have twice the education I do--how can they be intimidated by a little girl like me? Or is that the problem--I'm a girl and they're supposed to be big tough boys? I dunno.

 

Ruby,

 

As a person who went to technical college but quit (never failed) and doesn't have a diploma past High School, I have found over the years that I am far more logical and able to understand how things (including people/organizations) work than many people who I work with that have degrees from university.

 

These people have their strengths that I lack and these abilities I admire but I am no longer intimidated by degrees and judge the individual's talent by what they say and produce.

 

Perhaps you should give yourself the freedom to conclude that some of your abilities/talents match or exceed that of some (many?) professors. Like Mankey, you have my respect for your tremendous ability to scour an issue and search every crevice of an argument.

 

Give yourself a pat on the back; you deserve it.

 

Maybe the prof does not have the ability to teach/guide you beyond a certain point.

 

As to your degree...

 

Don't forget that you are in a system that has some arbitrary and unfair rules. If you force an intellectual show down with a professor, you must keep in mind that on occasion they can be petty and even mean spirited.

 

If this guy suddenly determines that you need to be cut down to size and starts attacking your credibility you cannot expect that any of the other profs will break ranks to support you. The kind of "closing ranks" that happens in the OOM world happens everywhere.

 

The essence of politics is about moving social boundaries. If you don't like politics or are not skilled at it, then you need to respect where the boundaries lay. In academia, I suspect that the "don't make me look stupid" boundary is very close to the top of the list.

 

I'd hate to see you have unnecessary trouble getting your degree that you so richly deserve.

 

Just my thoughts. Good luck!

 

Mongo

[R. S. Martin]

Mankey said:

 

It don't matter how many degrees a person has. If they are being illogical you can catch them contradicting themselves and resorting to other logical fallacies. You don't need to know all that they might know to catch them.

 

I think you are highly intelligent and not just educated. I think that you can hold your own just fine.

 

Mongo said:

 

Perhaps you should give yourself the freedom to conclude that some of your abilities/talents match or exceed that of some (many?) professors. Like Mankey, you have my respect for your tremendous ability to scour an issue and search every crevice of an argument.

 

Give yourself a pat on the back; you deserve it.

 

Maybe the prof does not have the ability to teach/guide you beyond a certain point.

 

Thank you Mankey and Mongo. It's really hard to get outside my own skin to see things objectively so this kind of feedback is really helpful. Maybe you're right--that the profs have taken me about as far as they can. I should probably view them more as peers than intellectual superiors. Peers can share ideas and information with each other and critique each other's work, but they don't expect the other to "know everything."

 

Mongo, I appreciate your understanding of the politics game. I have heard from so many students and profs in junior positions the kinds of petty favours and ass-kissing and groveling that needs to be done in order to get tenure, a much-needed grade, letter of recommendation, or whatever from some jerk in a position of greater power/authority. I will NOT force an intellectual show-down with this particular person.

 

I got an email from him this morning. He was very respectful but totally unhelpful. There are other profs at this school with whom it is safe to discuss questions that include the atheistic perspective. My thesis advisor helped me understand an author I am studying by explaining the atheist perspective, even though he himself and the author I am studying are both Christians. Another prof has an atheist son of whom he is ever so proud. Actually, you might know him--William Arnal in a school in the prairie provinces somewhere, maybe in Winnipeg, Manitoba.

[Oldjew]

It does not matter rather you live in Canada or the US or even England, you have a right of opinion and perhaps you should try to have a face to face meeting with this guy and ask him if he is against the idea of atheism and if so why? Let him know you are there to get an education but at the same time you understand that education teaches one to use one's own mind as to think freely otherwise education on any level defeats its self.

 

I went to the University of California at Berkley and I had professors I did not exactly agree with either, but only one got my goat and after having a heart to heart talk with him he came around to my point of view and after that I had no more problems with him.

 

Some times we need to sit at a table and talk rather than ponder scenarios that we do not think we can work out or the other person holds power over us.

 

If this professor were to "get even" with you by giving you a bad grade when you did not deserve it he could be called on the carpet and even loose his job. I do not think he is that stupid to ruin his career over nit picking.

 

But if you are still nervous about it why not seek out the dean or their assistant and bring up the matter to them.

 

Why be stressed out over this matter when you or who ever is paying your way through college is at the same time paying this professor's wages to let him get the best of you?

 

You are in the drivers seat, he is just a passenger.

[LithaB]

These guys have twice the education I do--how can they be intimidated by a little girl like me? Or is that the problem--I'm a girl and they're supposed to be big tough boys? I dunno.

 

After graduation I worked for 5 years at a fortune 500 company before returning to work at my alma mater for another 5 years so I have some post-student perspective on professors. My take on this is that some men pursue a "big" education to compensate for being "small" elsewhere. If you challenge their scholarship you are challenging their substitute manhood. That makes you, as a "little girl" extremely intimidating. You are supposed to be in awe of their engorged education, the fact that you aren't strikes at the very heart of their insecurities.

 

In my experience you really won't get anything of value from these scholars. If you are stuck interacting with one the most successful tactic is to batt your eyelashes and show due reverence to their large, erect PhD.

 

I never honed that skill myself (I'm too much of a bitch) but I have seen other women use it successfully.

[R. S. Martin]

These guys have twice the education I do--how can they be intimidated by a little girl like me? Or is that the problem--I'm a girl and they're supposed to be big tough boys? I dunno.

 

After graduation I worked for 5 years at a fortune 500 company before returning to work at my alma mater for another 5 years so I have some post-student perspective on professors. My take on this is that some men pursue a "big" education to compensate for being "small" elsewhere. If you challenge their scholarship you are challenging their substitute manhood. That makes you, as a "little girl" extremely intimidating. You are supposed to be in awe of their engorged education, the fact that you aren't strikes at the very heart of their insecurities.

 

In my experience you really won't get anything of value from these scholars. If you are stuck interacting with one the most successful tactic is to batt your eyelashes and show due reverence to their large, erect PhD.

 

I never honed that skill myself (I'm too much of a bitch) but I have seen other women use it successfully.

 

 

 

The bolded part made me laugh. I think perhaps honouring him with the (limited) question in the first place, and then profusely thanking him for his time in the second place, may have been doing exactly that, but I'm not sure....

 

Okay, just now I looked again at the part I sent him.

 

1. He knows that I deconverted and sometimes I suspected he made special statements about faith in an effort to impresss me about the values of Christian faith. In my note I acknowledge having heard his statements and giving much thought to them. Professors love when students think about what they tried to teach. Christians love when nonreligious people give a lot of thought to their religious statements. So I think he would be very happy with my question. Maybe that is batting my eye-lashes at his very large errect Christian PhD???

 

2. He replied that faith is a very large topic, that the verse I quoted is from Heb. 11:1 (I could have told him that but I figured it's redundant because we both know that so I didn't bother), what two major parts he thinks faith is composed of (again, no news there), and that he can direct me to further reading if I am interested. I think this last point was very respectful; he is not pushing religion on a person he knows is nonreligious. Or perhaps he just didn't want to go to the trouble of looking up titles and authors before he was sure that I was going to read them. Whatever, he had the opportunity to show his wisdom and knowledge. I never know for sure how profs see their relationship and oblilgation to former students so I don't know how to read this kind of thing.

 

3. I thanked him for the information, confessed that I did not know that faith was such a big topic (was that batting my eyelashes at his large PhD???--I admitted to not knowing something he does), and that I really had to focus my energies elsewhere for now (which should make sense because I am behind schedule with my paper, as I stated). I finished off by thanking him for his time. It seems people always thank important people for their time because time is one thing money can't buy. Professors probably have all the money they need but they seldom have all the time they need. So by spending time to answer questions they give of themselves and deserve thanks. Thus, by thanking him for his time I acknowledged that he is one of these important people who has all the money he needs but not all the time he needs. Information, or intellectual property, is what professors produce. Most of the population likes to be paid for their products and professors are no exception. Thus, it seems very fitting to thank them for sharing information without charge. I did that. All of this acknowledges his PhD.

 

Thus, I think I handled the situation appropriately. But I don't know if I "batted eyelashes" at his "large errect PhD." I think mostly I'm a bitch with just enough social skills to get by without upsetting too many carts on the way.

 

Just now I looked at the second paragraph again. I'm beginning to see why some people here thought it would be decent to send it. I would have probably sent it without a second thought depending which prof I was sending it to. But not to this individual. After spending twelve months under an individual's instruction you get to know them a little bit.

[Oldjew]

I once asked a college professor friend of mine a few years ago where he got his information to teach and he replied he went to college.

Then I asked him where the college got the information and he replied the founders got it from college.

 

And I told him each professor got it from another professor on and on backward into history, but some where they surely must have made up this knowledge or heard it from unreliable or thought to be reliable sources or second hand information or by trial and error or by experiences in their own life which was all hearsay since he was not there and therefore what he was teaching might well be BS and he laughed when he replied "All of the above is probably true but it seems to work for everybody in life and that is education."

 

Well that at least gave me some relief in that I bested him as he would never have been able to refute what I implied since at one time men lived in caves and evolved to where we are today and so everything I told him he knew had to be so and therefore he was no smarter than the books that educated him and he was no more right or wrong than those books which he had to rely on for his own education which brings me to the point;

Your professor is not always right as you so stated he was a theist and there is no physical evidence that there is a god or that the universe was created by a god which puts him in the back row when it comes to intelligence since he would have had no education and therefore no intelligence without book learning or a professor or teacher teaching him when he went to school. Therefore your intelligence may have an upmanship over his.

[LithaB]

I think mostly I'm a bitch with just enough social skills to get by without upsetting too many carts on the way.

 

That's a good balance. I have upset too many carts along the way, I think, and I don't recommend it. It sounds like you handled the situation very well.

 

 

The bolded part made me laugh.

I'm glad! The next time you are faced with that kind of professor I hope you remember my comment and get a little Mona Lisa smile on your face. The "I know a secret about you" smirk

will drive them batty