The Bible Is The Biggest Deterent To Christian Faith

[junkpoet]

i know you've seen it before, but i encourage you to read these verses as they are presented and in their context. taken as a whole, it can be impressive to an open-minded reader. i would love to read any reply a christian may offer to explain these verses, and i would appreciate any addtional verses others may suggest that would add to this list.

 

 

The guys who wrote the bible support slavery

However, you may purchase male or female slaves…You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

If you buy a Hebrew slave...Set him free in the seventh year.…If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

 

The guys that wrote the bible believe women should submit, shut up, and make babies.

I Timothy 2:15. “But women will be saved through childbearing-if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.†NIV

1 Corinthians 14: As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

1 Corinthians 11: But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God…but woman is the glory of man. (For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.)

1 Timothy 2: Also that women should adorn themselves modestly and sensibly in seemly apparel, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly attire but by good deeds...Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent.

Ephesians 5:22-24: "Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything."

1 Peter 3:7 we find: "Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers."

If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. (Deut. 22:28).

…if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— then he is to take his wife to the priest… The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. He shall have the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water will enter her and cause bitter suffering… If she has defiled herself and been unfaithful to her husband, then when she is made to drink the water that brings a curse, it will go into her and cause bitter suffering; her abdomen will swell and her thigh waste away, and she will become accursed among her people. If, however, the woman has not defiled herself and is free from impurity, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children… The husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing, but the woman will bear the consequences of her sin (Numbers 5:11-29).

For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands, like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her MASTER. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear (1 Peter 3:5-6).

Random weirdness by the bible writers. Kids being punished for sins their fathers commited

Deuteronomy 23:2“One of illegitimate birth shall not enter the assembly of the LORD; even to the tenth generation none of his descendants shall enter the assembly of the LORD.

ISA 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

 

This list reminds me of a Metallica album…Kill ‘em All

Witches, folks having sex with animals, and anyone worshiping a different god have to die…Exodus 22:18-20 18"You shall not allow a (A)sorceress to live.

19"(L)Whoever lies with an animal shall surely be put to death.

20"(M)He who sacrifices to any god, other than to the LORD alone, shall be utterly destroyed.

Is this about human sacrifice? Exodus 22:29-30 29"(Z)You shall not delay the offering from your harvest and your vintage (AA)The firstborn of your sons you shall give to Me. 30"(AB)You shall do the same with your oxen and with your sheep It shall be with its mother seven days; (AC)on the eighth day you shall give it to Me.

People who work on Saturday have to die-- Exodus 35:22"(A)For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a holy day, (B)a sabbath of complete rest to the LORD; ©whoever does any work on it shall be put to death.

Rebellious children have to die -- Leviticus 20:99'(A)If there is anyone who curses his father or his mother, he shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother, his bloodguiltiness is upon him.

Adulterers have to die-- Leviticus 20:1010'(A)If there is a man who commits adultery with another man's wife, one who commits adultery with his friend's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Gays have to die-- Leviticus 20:1313'(A)If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.

Zoophiles have to die -- Leviticus 20:1515'(A)If there is a man who lies with an animal, he shall surely be put to death; you shall also kill the animal.

Wizards and witches have to die-- Leviticus 20:2727'Now a man or a woman (A)who is a medium or a spiritist shall surely be put to death. They shall be stoned with stones, their bloodguiltiness is upon them.'"

Prostitute daughters of priests have to die-- Leviticus 21:99'(A)Also the daughter of any priest, if she profanes herself by harlotry, she profanes her father; she shall be burned with fire.

Blasphemers have to die-- Leviticus 24:1616'Moreover, the one who (A)blasphemes the name of the LORD shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall certainly stone him. The alien as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death.

More human sacrifice?-- Leviticus 27:2928'Nevertheless, (I)anything which a man [a]sets apart to the LORD out of all that he has, of man or animal or of the fields of his own property, shall not be sold or redeemed. Anything devoted to destruction is most holy to the LORD. 29'No one who may have been set apart among men shall be ransomed; he shall surely be put to death.

Prophets and dreamers of other gods whose predictions come true have to die -- Deuteronomy 13:1-51"(A)If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, '(B)Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,' 3you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is ©testing you to find out if (D)you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4"(E)You shall follow the LORD your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and (F)cling to Him. 5"But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be (G)put to death, because he has counseled rebellion against the LORD your God who brought you from the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery, (H)to seduce you from the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk (I)So you shall purge the evil from among you.

Atheists and agnostics have to die-- 2 Chronicles 15:1313and whoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel (A)should be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman.

 

The Old Test. discriminated against handicapped people (ironic for a designer to discriminate against those with a design flaw)…Leviticus.21:17-23

Whosoever ... hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God. For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded, Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken; No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the LORD made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God. ... Only he shall not go in unto the vail, nor come nigh unto the altar, because he hath a blemish; that he profane not my sanctuaries.

 

It (He) discriminated against illegitimate children and forbade them to attend worship services…Deuteronomy 23:2

“One of illegitimate birth shall not enter the assembly of the LORD; even to the tenth generation none of his descendants shall enter the assembly of the LORD.

 

It (He) condoned and even ordered genocide and rape…Numbers 31

Numbers 31:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying 31:2 Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people. 31:3 And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the LORD of Midian. 31:4 Of every tribe a thousand, throughout all the tribes of Israel, shall ye send to the war. 31:5 So there were delivered out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand of every tribe, twelve thousand armed for war. 31:6 And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of every tribe, them and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, to the war, with the holy instruments, and the trumpets to blow in his hand. 31:7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males 31:8 And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword. 31:9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goodsThey took the women and children captives, and burnt all their cities. 31:10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire. 31:11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts. 31:12 And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho. 31:13 And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp. 31:14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle31:15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? 31:16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him 31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. (wonder what they kept them for?)

 

"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." (I Samuel 15:2-3)

 

"And he brought forth the people that were therein, and put them under saws, and under harrows of iron, and under the axes of iron, and made them pass through the brickkiln: and thus did he unto all the cities of the children of Ammon. So David and all the people returned unto Jerusalem." (II Samuel 12:31)

 

"Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." (Numbers 31:16-18)

 

Isaiah chapter 13...the day of the lord involves the murder of children and the rape of women

 

"9 See, the day of the LORD is coming

—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—

to make the land desolate

and destroy the sinners within it.

10 The stars of heaven and their constellations

will not show their light.

The rising sun will be darkened

and the moon will not give its light.

11 I will punish the world for its evil,

the wicked for their sins.

I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty

and will humble the pride of the ruthless.

12 I will make man scarcer than pure gold,

more rare than the gold of Ophir.

13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble;

and the earth will shake from its place

at the wrath of the LORD Almighty,

in the day of his burning anger.

14 Like a hunted gazelle,

like sheep without a shepherd,

each will return to his own people,

each will flee to his native land.

15 Whoever is captured will be thrust through;

all who are caught will fall by the sword.

16 Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes;

their houses will be looted and their wives ravished.

 

 

"And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain." (Deuteronomy 2:34)

 

So the LORD smote the Ethiopians before Asa, and before Judah; and the Ethiopians fled. (II Chronicles 14:12)

 

"And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Hesbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city. But all the cattle, and the spoil of the cities we took for a prey to ourselves." (Deuteronomy 3:6-7)

 

"And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and woman: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house." (Ezekiel 9:5-6)

 

 

"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21)

 

"The righteous shall rejoice when he sees the vengeance. He shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked." (Psalms 58:10)

[Mankey]

Great post junkpoet.

 

But pointing out irrational intolerance and bigotry that is found in th bible is wasted on enablers. I mean common! Liberal religionists will 'fix' scripture so it isn't bigotry. I'm sure Liberal religionists will have no problems convincing fundies of what scripture is "really" saying. There for "militant" atheists should just shut the fuck up and get with the program. I mean calling a spade a spade instead of using illogical tactics such as "fixing" scripture is "militant". Get with the program junkpoet. You don't want to be a militant atheist do you?

 

[mwc]

I'm a little disappointed that this one is just mixed in here:

…if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— then he is to take his wife to the priest… The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. He shall have the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water will enter her and cause bitter suffering… If she has defiled herself and been unfaithful to her husband, then when she is made to drink the water that brings a curse, it will go into her and cause bitter suffering; her abdomen will swell and her thigh waste away, and she will become accursed among her people. If, however, the woman has not defiled herself and is free from impurity, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children… The husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing, but the woman will bear the consequences of her sin (Numbers 5:11-29).

This is one of the best (if not the best) examples of ordained magic use in the entirety of the bible.

 

mwc

[junkpoet]

Great post junkpoet.

 

But pointing out irrational intolerance and bigotry that is found in th bible is wasted on enablers. I mean common! Liberal religionists will 'fix' scripture so it isn't bigotry. I'm sure Liberal religionists will have no problems convincing fundies of what scripture is "really" saying. There for "militant" atheists should just shut the fuck up and get with the program. I mean calling a spade a spade instead of using illogical tactics such as "fixing" scripture is "militant". Get with the program junkpoet. You don't want to be a militant atheist do you?

 

 

i hear you. on the "militant" stuff. but i just keep wanting to put this stuff out there hoping that if somone hasnt seen this crap, they will have an epiphany and wake up.

[1_individual]

Great post junkpoet.

 

But pointing out irrational intolerance and bigotry that is found in th bible is wasted on enablers. I mean common! Liberal religionists will 'fix' scripture so it isn't bigotry. I'm sure Liberal religionists will have no problems convincing fundies of what scripture is "really" saying. There for "militant" atheists should just shut the fuck up and get with the program. I mean calling a spade a spade instead of using illogical tactics such as "fixing" scripture is "militant". Get with the program junkpoet. You don't want to be a militant atheist do you?

 

 

i hear you. on the "militant" stuff. but i just keep wanting to put this stuff out there hoping that if somone hasnt seen this crap, they will have an epiphany and wake up.

 

Amen Junkpoet. (Paradoxical Pun Intended)

 

I can't believe I never read this excrement when I was a zombie. I guess it's because the rvil one made me fall fast asleep long before that page. Did somebody say NyQuil.

 

Thanks for posting that one.

 

-F

[texmex2003]

As for one former "zombie", it was reading this crap and other crap throughout the so called "true word of god", that lead me out of the faith.

Rape the little girls and if they bleed, they live as your sexual slave. If they don't bleed, they get ripped apart by the sword. All ordained and mandated by "God". They call Islam an evil religion, but really do not know what their own holy scripture says.

[Robbobrob]

I just read a post over on beliefnet about this kind of stuff, and how Christians blow it off as not counting. Either it only applies to Jews, or, in the case of slavery, it actually means "indentured servants" not slaves. Like that makes it so much better.

 

The Old Testament is not to be followed beyond the doctrine of Original Sin (which Jews don't even believe in, and it was there book first), the Ten Commandments (the other 603 are more like requests or no longer needed), or those phophesies that they can make fit into the New Testament legend.

 

Everyything else, they blow off as not necessary.

[mwc]

I just read a post over on beliefnet about this kind of stuff, and how Christians blow it off as not counting.

If you'd have read the article I posted it might help understand why this is.

 

You really can't successfully fight myths this way and there's over 2000 years of history to prove this point (not just talking about xianity now).

 

mwc

[Mankey]

I just read a post over on beliefnet about this kind of stuff, and how Christians blow it off as not counting. Either it only applies to Jews, or, in the case of slavery, it actually means "indentured servants" not slaves. Like that makes it so much better.

 

The Old Testament is not to be followed beyond the doctrine of Original Sin (which Jews don't even believe in, and it was there book first), the Ten Commandments (the other 603 are more like requests or no longer needed), or those phophesies that they can make fit into the New Testament legend.

 

Everyything else, they blow off as not necessary.

Not all fundies. Dominionists. The bible is shit and I am all to happy to point it out.

[Mankey]

I just read a post over on beliefnet about this kind of stuff, and how Christians blow it off as not counting.

If you'd have read the article I posted it might help understand why this is.

 

You really can't successfully fight myths this way and there's over 2000 years of history to prove this point (not just talking about xianity now).

 

mwc

Then how do you account for apostates?

 

Here is another thing that is worth while.....inoculating the non religious. Lota fence setters too that can be inoculated....Christians in name only. Just getting a large minority who rejects religious bullshit could do a lot of good.

[mwc]

Then how do you account for apostates?

From personal experience, and what I've read of others, it seems the process wasn't begun by having someone countering the myth directly (ie. a counter-missionary approach). However, education that simply lays out the correct information, while not bothering with the myth itself, is useful. So a geology class in and of itself can be useful while a geology class that also explained why Noah is implausible would be less effective. The reference to Noah reinforces the belief in Noah but the added knowledge of geology doesn't dispel the problems with the myth.

 

Like anything psychological, or otherwise, there will be exceptions. The article I posted should not be expected to be a 100% solution. Some people will be convinced by different means. But how many xians are convinced in the face of straight-forward evidence? Few. The myth persists as it has for a long, long time. Urban legends continue in the same fashion despite how ridiculous most of them truly are upon very little examination. The same article sheds some light onto a possible reason why and a possible way to deal with those who tend to gravitate towards this type of thinking (notice I am not saying this is an all encompassing solution but a way to deal with a specific mindset...but an unfortunately large one).

 

Here is another thing that is worth while.....inoculating the non religious. Lota fence setters too that can be inoculated....Christians in name only. Just getting a large minority who rejects religious bullshit could do a lot of good.

Indeed. As I stated above the article addresses a specific point. Look back at the Catholic church. The replaced one myth with another in many locals. That's why they have such a strange set of holidays and beliefs rolled into their religion now. They really just usurped what was beneficial to them. The fence sitters will move onto something else if that something else is within their mindset. You can't simply force them into a different mindset so you need to present them with something they might like equally well. Small steps for those who are already into a specific pattern of thinking. Ween them off. So, even if it's still silly to you or I, it is plausible to them.

 

An example of this might be that there wasn't literally 6 days of creation but that there was a "big bang" and the 6 days were a metaphor. The metaphor then describes evolution. Since it's not to be taken literal the mistakes in the bible are because people made copy errors. So now you've moved people from seeing the bible as literal. You've gotten them to see that it can contain errors. You've gotten them to embrace science and finally to embrace evolution as a valid methodology. That is a lot.

 

The primary problem with xianity in this culture is that it is everywhere. It's on many street corners (churches). It's on the TV/movies. It's around a lot of necks (jewelry). It's on cars. It's in music. It's in two major holidays (that last months thanks to marketing). It's even in swearing. So to teach facts you need to counter a lot of subtle (and not so subtle) influence.

 

This is why I actually welcome the influx of religion for now. I welcome Scientology and Islam and Uncle Joe's Chicken Fucking Religion. It will serve to water the whole thing down. I want people to see that religion is something that can be invented and not something special so Scientology is the first great step in that process. We just need more. Many more. I want to see new religions popping up like fast food. I think people will quickly tire of this and burn out. I think they'll be much more open to the idea that religion, and god(s), are simply man-made at that point unlike now where they think the one xian religion is something special handed down by baby god himself. It needs to get just a little worse before it gets better.

 

mwc

[Mankey]

Okay man. Thanks.

 

However...I have had some successes with Christians through showing them the horrible stuff in scripture first and then logical problems. It doesn't always work, but sometimes it does. I think it is worth while and will continue to do so. Plus it certainly shuts some Christians mouths right the hell up. Which is good.

[mwc]

Okay man. Thanks.

 

However...I have had some successes with Christians through showing them the horrible stuff in scripture first and then logical problems. It doesn't always work, but sometimes it does. I think it is worth while and will continue to do so. Plus it certainly shuts some Christians mouths right the hell up. Which is good.

Hey if that works then more power to you.

 

And I've definitely quoted the horrible crap to just shut mouths so I can't say I have a problem with that either.

 

I'm just interested in a more permanent solution to the problem and this non-stop "debate" for the last 2000 years hasn't seemed to gotten anyone anywhere (except where we are obviously). So unless we want to deconvert by the sword (as they converted most people and which would make them martyrs anyway) we need to deconvert using some other methods. I just liked that article since it showed that since the myth got here first it has a huge advantage and we need to use our heads when dealing with it.

 

mwc

[Mankey]

Okay man. Thanks.

 

However...I have had some successes with Christians through showing them the horrible stuff in scripture first and then logical problems. It doesn't always work, but sometimes it does. I think it is worth while and will continue to do so. Plus it certainly shuts some Christians mouths right the hell up. Which is good.

Hey if that works then more power to you.

 

And I've definitely quoted the horrible crap to just shut mouths so I can't say I have a problem with that either.

 

I'm just interested in a more permanent solution to the problem and this non-stop "debate" for the last 2000 years hasn't seemed to gotten anyone anywhere (except where we are obviously). So unless we want to deconvert by the sword (as they converted most people and which would make them martyrs anyway) we need to deconvert using some other methods. I just liked that article since it showed that since the myth got here first it has a huge advantage and we need to use our heads when dealing with it.

 

mwc

Yea.

 

This is Mankey and I aprove of this message.

[Dhampir]

How do you answer those people who justify the verses on slavery by comparing biblical 'slaves' to butlers or maids?

[Mankey]

How do you answer those people who justify the verses on slavery by comparing biblical 'slaves' to butlers or maids?

Why its real easy! Ya just have a seance and conjure up the prophets for an in depth interview so that they can apologize how things were different back then and that they were just mythin' us as a way to explain moral values.

 

 

Oh wait my bad, thats some some other heathens do. Not junkpoet.

[Legion]

Then how do you account for apostates?

From personal experience, and what I've read of others, it seems the process wasn't begun by having someone countering the myth directly (ie. a counter-missionary approach). However, education that simply lays out the correct information, while not bothering with the myth itself, is useful. So a geology class in and of itself can be useful while a geology class that also explained why Noah is implausible would be less effective. The reference to Noah reinforces the belief in Noah but the added knowledge of geology doesn't dispel the problems with the myth.

 

I welcome Scientology and Islam and Uncle Joe's Chicken Fucking Religion. It will serve to water the whole thing down. I want people to see that religion is something that can be invented and not something special, so Scientology is the first great step in that process. We just need more. Many more. I want to see new religions popping up like fast food. I think people will quickly tire of this and burn out. I think they'll be much more open to the idea that religion, and god(s), are simply man-made at that point unlike now where they think the one xian religion is something special handed down by baby god himself. It needs to get just a little worse before it gets better.

MWC you are the man! When you lay it out like this I can almost see it. I get the impression that to rid ourselves of religion we need two things to happen simultaneously. A growth of our understanding, based essentially in science, needs to occur. And a growth of a bunch of adhoc religions needs to occur. People will flee the one and embrace the other.

 

I wonder if this is exactly what is happening.

[mwc]

How do you answer those people who justify the verses on slavery by comparing biblical 'slaves' to butlers or maids?

I don't know about where you live but where I live butlers and maids can quit whenever they like. I also cannot strike them for any reason (except self-defense). So perhaps they are indentured servants. Alright, but even then I own their children. Forever.

Exodus 21

 

1 Now these are the laws which you are to put before them. 2 If you get a Hebrew servant for money, he is to be your servant for six years, and in the seventh year you are to let him go free without payment. 3 If he comes to you by himself, let him go away by himself: if he is married, let his wife go away with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife, and he gets sons or daughters by her, the wife and her children will be the property of the master, and the servant is to go away by himself. 5 But if the servant says clearly, My master and my wife and children are dear to me; I have no desire to be free: 6 Then his master is to take him to the gods of the house, and at the door, or at its framework, he is to make a hole in his ear with a sharp-pointed instrument; and he will be his servant for ever.

Notice this is also the rule for a Hebrew servant. Not for foreign ones. Anyhow, as you can see. Buy him and he goes free in the 7th year (with his wife if he came with one). If you gave him one then the wife is the still your property as are any children but he still has to go away. If he decides to stay with his family he is to be marked in front of the GODS (plural...showing a mistake in the copy job) of the house and is yours forever.

 

So YHWH approves of using a wife and kids as leverage to keep a man your slave forever but admittedly he is lax when it comes to treatment of single Hebrew men. Now, I couldn't say how many people actually obeyed this rule. Like the Sabbath planting law that never worked it seems it may have been overlooked or altered elsewhere in the bible (I don't know but most likely it was there to encourage taking foreign slaves).

 

mwc

[mwc]

MWC you are the man! When you lay it out like this I can almost see it. I get the impression that to rid ourselves of religion we need two things to happen simultaneously. A growth of our understanding, based essentially in science, needs to occur. And a growth of a bunch of adhoc religions needs to occur. People will flee the one and embrace the other.

That's the basic gist of it.

 

I wonder if this is exactly what is happening.

I think it may be. It just needs time to grow.

 

mwc

[mwc]

To add to the OP I think this is an absurd bit of godly justice:

 

1 Kings

20:35

And a certain man of the sons of the prophets said unto his neighbour in the word of the LORD, Smite me, I pray thee. And the man refused to smite him.

 

20:36

Then said he unto him, Because thou hast not obeyed the voice of the LORD, behold, as soon as thou art departed from me, a lion shall slay thee. And as soon as he was departed from him, a lion found him, and slew him.

 

Your neighbor comes to you and asks you to hit/beat/kill him and you refuse (not knowing he's full of the "word") so by doing the "right" thing you get eaten by a lion?!?!? That YHWH is one class act in the justice/mercy department. All the propaganda is right. Their god is a loving and intelligent god. Can't let assholes that won't beat you on demand run around free.

 

mwc

[Kirangel]

mwc, that seems pretty twisted to me. But I tell that to Christians and they just say I'm blind without offering an explanation of their own. Apparently we can't always understand God's ways so lets just ignore all the nasty little details of the bible and say that the book is good and full of positive morals that should be our guide (I'm still a little frustrated by the conversation I got into with Christians earlier). They just don't make any sense.

[mwc]

mwc, that seems pretty twisted to me. But I tell that to Christians and they just say I'm blind without offering an explanation of their own. Apparently we can't always understand God's ways so lets just ignore all the nasty little details of the bible and say that the book is good and full of positive morals that should be our guide (I'm still a little frustrated by the conversation I got into with Christians earlier). They just don't make any sense.

Yeah, I just saw that over in the other section. I think this speaks nicely to the article I referenced earlier in this thread. Like it or not pointing this type of thing out to people usually just ends up going nowhere otherwise simply dropping these lists of atrocities where xians congregate would be all that we'd need to do to cause massive deconversions. These lists are helpful once the person is already ready to accept that the bible god may not be everything they thought it was (of course, as I've said before, this may not be the case for everyone but for the general case I'm making here).

 

The term "blind" goes both ways. We are "blind" to their version of things but they are likewise "blind" to ours. The difference is we once "saw" as they did even though they cannot understand or accept that we did (as a xian we wouldn't/couldn't understand an unbelievers view much less the apostate's view...hell, where I came from I couldn't fathom that anyone could ever go apostate...that would be like spotting some thought to be extinct animal in person...unimaginable...so the person must not have believed to begin with since apostates don't exist in the wild).

 

mwc

[Mankey]

This is why I actually welcome the influx of religion for now. I welcome Scientology and Islam and Uncle Joe's Chicken Fucking Religion. It will serve to water the whole thing down. I want people to see that religion is something that can be invented and not something special so Scientology is the first great step in that process. We just need more. Many more. I want to see new religions popping up like fast food. I think people will quickly tire of this and burn out. I think they'll be much more open to the idea that religion, and god(s), are simply man-made at that point unlike now where they think the one xian religion is something special handed down by baby god himself. It needs to get just a little worse before it gets better.

 

mwc

I reread this thread.

 

This is a hard pill to swallow mwc....I fucking hate this bullshit.

 

My mind was closed to what you were saying. Still, I have had some successes with some Christians. Maybe they were gonna lose faith anyways and I just helped them along faster. It is still worthwhile I think. I also think that it does good to openly criticize religion as it encourages people in the closet. We need to be a larger minority.

 

LOL. I never really read your whole article.

 

I can make donkey noises if you'd like. hehe.

[mwc]

I reread this thread.

 

This is a hard pill to swallow mwc....I fucking hate this bullshit.

I'm glad you took the time to reread things. I also hate how things are and I also hate bashing my head against the same wall over and over again. I have to admit that it pisses me off when I really get into with some knucklehead xian but that's what hitting your head will do to you. Since we're supposedly reasonable it's time to use those extra smarts and apply them somehow. Since we can't seem to force people to get smarter and get out of the water because someone pissed in it, it seems we need to dilute the pool with even more piss until they get out themselves (of course some will just sit in piss no matter what). So more, and different, religions are the answer for this type of people. Not in a vacuum of course, science (or if you prefer "logic") would be taught, but not as an alternative, but simply as the status quo. Science (logic, reason, etc.) should stop being presented as the alternative to religion but simply the status quo. Religion should be presented as the thing that is slightly askew (nothing more than "slightly" since that would cause people to put up their defenses but "slightly" puts a little taint on it like an aftertaste that people can't quite identify but want to get rid of).

 

My mind was closed to what you were saying. Still, I have had some successes with some Christians. Maybe they were gonna lose faith anyways and I just helped them along faster. It is still worthwhile I think. I also think that it does good to openly criticize religion as it encourages people in the closet. We need to be a larger minority.

Perhaps I wasn't presenting my ideas well enough for you to want to open your mind? I'm not saying my way is the only way. Different people need different approaches. My way is really just a variation on what religion has been doing to science but reversed. Religions point out how academics/scientists argue and can't come to conclusions when that's how it really is supposed to work. If religions were allowed to truly flourish, well, you can only imagine how they'd attack one another and never, ever, agree on anything (the xian sects can barely tolerate one another today). Science would suddenly be the stable force by comparison and I think people are ultimately seeking stability in their lives more than anything "supernatural" or the like it's just that religion and the "supernatural" are the ones providing stability at the moment so they buy the whole package.

 

LOL. I never really read your whole article.

I had a feeling...

 

It IS a good article with some good suggestions for dealing with a certain type of person though.

 

I can make donkey noises if you'd like. hehe.

Whatever makes you happy.

 

mwc

[Mankey]

I can make donkey noises if you'd like. hehe.

Whatever makes you happy.

 

mwc