Will This Make Sense To Fundies?

[R. S. Martin]

You will of course be dealing with the fundamentalist atheists as well?

Thus spake some fundy. I took it as an opportunity to explain what atheism is as follows:

 

Yes of course. When fundamentalist atheists start killing in the name of their deity we will deal with them, too.

 

Apparently you think atheism is a religion. You might find

this

helpful to see how atheists answer Christian arguments.

 

False: Atheists say there is no God.

True: Atheists say I see no evidence for God.

 

Theist

: I believe in God.

Atheist

: I have no belief in God.

 

Religious Person

: Arranges life according to rules of religion. Also focuses on making a living, enjoying friends and family, and being happy.

Atheist

: No religion. Focuses on making a living, enjoying friends and family, and being happy.

 

Conclusion

: Fundamentalist atheists do not kill in the name of their deity because they do not have a deity. Atheism is not a religion because it is not a belief system.

 

Freethought and humanism are life philosophies that some atheists hold. Not all atheists hold these philosophies.

 

This thread is about sociology and anthropology of religion. It is impossible to talk about the sociology and anthropology of the religion of people who have no religion.

 

If you disagree that atheism is not a religion, please provide the evidence for your argument, and the names of the authors or websites where you found your information. Thank you.

 

Will that even make sense to a fundy? Could it be explained better?

[Rev R]

I don't think you could have explained it any clearer. With that said I don't think that a fundie will understand. In my experience, fundies simply cannot grasp the concept of atheism. They just can't look at the world without the lens of faith.

 

I've seen some of the arguments for "atheism is a religion", all I can say is good luck to you.

[R. S. Martin]

Thanks. In real life a lot of people just give up talking to me because I won't be yelled down. I will just wait until they're done yelling and resume the discussion. Then they walk away with the attitude that it's not worth their energy to try and talk to me.

 

It's as though they think all of life is a power-struggle. I wish they would just calm down and discuss things objectively.

[Mankey]

You rock RubySera.

 

They would have to be close minded to not see what you have clearly demonstrated.

 

[Jun]

In my experience, fundies simply cannot grasp the concept of atheism.

 

It's not just Christians that are convinced that atheism is a belief system or a religion.

 

According to Gudõ Rõshi of the Dõgen Sangha atheism is indeed a religion. In his words, "Someone who expresses a lack of belief in any religion, is in fact, a person who has faith in an ideology of 'no religion.' If we were to place such a belief among the various categories [of religion], it would fall squarely into the category of a materialist religion."

 

According to Gudõ Rõshi, there are three types of religion:

 

1) Those that set high store on the ideal.

2) Those that venerate the material.

3) Those that emphasize action.

 

He places the Abrahamic cults in the first type, atheism, science and even Marxism in the second and Buddhism in the third. His thoughts on atheism are also reflected by his successor Brad Warner.

 

I've met many Buddhists that clearly have just as much a misunderstanding about what atheism means as Christians do.

[Mankey]

Someone who expresses a lack of belief in any religion, is in fact, a person who has faith in an ideology of 'no religion.'

Its a lack of confidence vis a vis religious faith. Gullibility plays no part in a lack of confidence. Thats the difference.

 

 

Jun.....some Buddhist reject the real teachings of the Buddha in cases right? If so thats why. They don't want to feel silly by comparison.

[Jun]

Someone who expresses a lack of belief in any religion, is in fact, a person who has faith in an ideology of 'no religion.'

Its a lack of confidence vis a vis religious faith. Gullibility plays no part in a lack of confidence. Thats the difference.

 

Jun.....some Buddhist reject the real teachings of the Buddha in cases right? If so thats why. They don't want to feel silly by comparison.

 

Yes, they do. Some have elevated the Buddha to the status of god. Some even claim that he taught secret stuff that is only found within their schools! Some have taken a past teacher as their only true guide and elevated him to god status too.

 

I found the following interesting: -

 

"What is atheism?" Atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the existence of gods. This absence of belief generally comes about either through deliberate choice, or from an inherent inability to believe religious teachings which seem literally incredible. It is not a lack of belief born out of simple ignorance of religious teachings.

 

Some atheists go beyond a mere absence of belief in gods: they actively believe that particular gods, or all gods, do not exist. Just lacking belief in Gods is often referred to as the "weak atheist" position; whereas believing that gods do not (or cannot) exist is known as "strong atheism."

 

Regarding people who have never been exposed to the concept of 'god': Whether they are 'atheists' or not is a matter of debate. Since you're unlikely to meet anyone who has never encountered religion, it's not a very important debate...

 

It is important, however, to note the difference between the strong and weak atheist positions. "Weak atheism" is simple scepticism; disbelief in the existence of God. "Strong atheism" is an explicitly held belief that God does not exist. Please do not fall into the trap of assuming that all atheists are "strong atheists." There is a qualitative difference in the "strong" and "weak" positions; it's not just a matter of degree.

 

 

 

Some atheists believe in the nonexistence of all Gods; others limit their atheism to specific Gods, such as the Christian God, rather than making flat-out denials.

 

From here: - http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/intro.html

[Rev R]

Thanks. In real life a lot of people just give up talking to me because I won't be yelled down. I will just wait until they're done yelling and resume the discussion. Then they walk away with the attitude that it's not worth their energy to try and talk to me.

 

It's as though they think all of life is a power-struggle. I wish they would just calm down and discuss things objectively.

 

Anytime.

 

The problem I see is that discussion is not the goal for most who would be your opponents, conversion is the agenda. You could say that their frustration is caused by a feeling of futility when their weapons have no effect. In their minds it isn't worth the energy to talk to you. To them you are lost.

 

 

In my experience, fundies simply cannot grasp the concept of atheism.

 

It's not just Christians that are convinced that atheism is a belief system or a religion.

 

According to Gudõ Rõshi of the Dõgen Sangha atheism is indeed a religion. In his words, "Someone who expresses a lack of belief in any religion, is in fact, a person who has faith in an ideology of 'no religion.' If we were to place such a belief among the various categories [of religion], it would fall squarely into the category of a materialist religion."

 

According to Gudõ Rõshi, there are three types of religion:

 

1) Those that set high store on the ideal.

2) Those that venerate the material.

3) Those that emphasize action.

 

He places the Abrahamic cults in the first type, atheism, science and even Marxism in the second and Buddhism in the third. His thoughts on atheism are also reflected by his successor Brad Warner.

 

I've met many Buddhists that clearly have just as much a misunderstanding about what atheism means as Christians do.

 

You have the advantage over me there Jun my friend. I spent most of the last 10 years being the only Buddhist I know.

 

From what I can tell by reading Nishijima Roshi's blog, he is a bit of a fundie. He's hoping that Brad's media popularity and cult following will spread the True Buddhism (I can only assume that this is the Dharma as presented by DSI) here in America. It really doesn't surprise me that he lumps everything together as "religion". Personally while I find Brad to be entertaining, I do take him with a grain of salt.

 

Be it a cross or saffron, a fundie is a fundie. One of the traits that both the DSI leadership and the Christian fundies that Sera faces is that the search is over, the doctrine is solid, and opposing thought is just misguided or plain wrong.

[R. S. Martin]

I don't know how common this is but I think there is a difference in how honest we are with our feelings. For example, I asked a person how she felt about an email I sent and she said, "I did take offense." It was as though she looked at the situation and decided that I had no right sending her the email so she chose to take offense.

 

I don't understand that kind of thing. Feelings are something that happen to me, the same as feeling hot or cold because of the environment I'm in. Like standing on the street corner without a jacket on a cold day. Of course, some people look at the calendar to know whether or not they are going to be cold on the street corner. Again, I don't understand that.

 

Back to the person who took offense at my email. I have also noticed that she is at the mercy of her unconscious when it comes to excitement or anxiety. I am thinking that a person who is so far removed from her own feelings, or what causes/motivates her feelings, probably has no idea how to know whether or not God exists. I suppose the best bet for such a person is to accept the voice of authorty and hope for the best.

 

In that case, I guess atheism would be just one more religion because such a brain MUST have an object to be accountable to, to direct worship to, etc.

[Jun]

From what I can tell by reading Nishijima Roshi's blog, he is a bit of a fundie. He's hoping that Brad's media popularity and cult following will spread the True Buddhism (I can only assume that this is the Dharma as presented by DSI) here in America. It really doesn't surprise me that he lumps everything together as "religion". Personally while I find Brad to be entertaining, I do take him with a grain of salt.

 

Power struggles, insecurities, delusions of grandeur - the Sõtõ sect hasn't grasped the teachings it seems, and it hasn't changed for the last 800 years either.

 

Be it a cross or saffron, a fundie is a fundie.

 

Apparently yes, and that is a shame.

 

One of the traits that both the DSI leadership and the Christian fundies that Sera faces is that the search is over, the doctrine is solid, and opposing thought is just misguided or plain wrong.

 

Ruby was concise and straight to the point. If there is still any doubt as to what atheist means to these fundies then there can be no hope in having an intelligent conversation with them. As Richard Dawkins said, "Fundamentalists know they are right because they have read the truth in a holy book and they know, in advance, that nothing will budge them from their belief."

 

Disbelieving in gods has the religious baffled. They equat it with a belief that gods don't exist. I think this explains it well, see here - Disbelief in a proposition means that one does not believe it to be true.

[R. S. Martin]

Thanks. In real life a lot of people just give up talking to me because I won't be yelled down. I will just wait until they're done yelling and resume the discussion. Then they walk away with the attitude that it's not worth their energy to try and talk to me.

 

It's as though they think all of life is a power-struggle. I wish they would just calm down and discuss things objectively.

 

Anytime.

 

The problem I see is that discussion is not the goal for most who would be your opponents, conversion is the agenda. You could say that their frustration is caused by a feeling of futility when their weapons have no effect. In their minds it isn't worth the energy to talk to you. To them you are lost.

 

 

You must have posted while I was writing.

 

Maybe you're right. They certainly act like this were their goal but they don't say so. I try to speak and act in consonance with my true feelings. One wastes less energy that way. If they wanted to actually accomplish something of value, they should come out and say what it is they want, rather than try to trick me into conversion. Tricks don't work with me. The opening statement was posted on my forums and on the craziest thread possible. Way off-topic if you ask me. It was as though the person joined for the specific purpose to "make me think" about the "evils of my ways" in fighting fundamentalist religion.

 

And, well, yeah, the "weapon" didn't work because that isn't the way I fight. I have nothing to be afraid or ashamed of, nothing to hide or feel guilty about. Thus vieled threats, insinuated deficiencies, and/or guilt trips have little effect. I can see that this would be frustrating for people who know no other way of getting what they want from others.

 

There's a vivid description in the NT about how we should approach the enemy with self-confidence--it's commonly called the Armor of the Lord. Apparently, it also works when approaching the army of the lord.

[R. S. Martin]

I am reminded of some conversations I had with various biological family members some time ago. I treated their questions and grilling like genuine questions worth their face value. In retrospect I realized they were anything but. They were asking me how the universe could have come into being if there is no God. I explained that I don't know but that I can find out for them if they really want to know--I can tell them what books to read. They kept pushing the issue and I kept repeating my answer. It got kind of tiresome and finally I asked if they wanted me to get authors and titles for them.

 

"No! I am not in the least interested," was the response.

 

I guess the question was meant to trip me up. Kind of a weird way to go about things in my opinion. She could have said, "In my opinion, the existence of the universe is proof of God's existence. Do you disagree? If so, please explain your reasons."

 

That way she would not have set herself up for such frustration and futile exchange of words.

 

When I ask questions about the faith I am told we need not know everything. When they ask me about the origins of the universe and I say I feel I don't need to know, they won't let me off the hook. It's as though how the universe came into existence eons before I existed is of more importance to this life than committing my Self to an unknown entity for time and eternity.

 

I'm not sure if that is worded correctly. I'll try again. I consider it rather dangerous or risky to commit my Self to an unknown entity, i.e. God, for time and eternity. How the universe came into existence does not seem to be of any importance to my well-being so far as I can see. The universe is here. I am here. How to live in the universe for the duration of my lifespan seems to be somewhat important. Being a positive presence and leaving a positive legacy seems decent. Beyond that, if there is a God or karma or whatever, I think that is the best I can do and the consequences that follow will be what they will be.

[Mankey]

To them we can be nothing but lairs. It has to be that way for them. They cant possibly be wrong.

[R. S. Martin]

Thanks Mankey. That seems to be it in a nutshell.

[Mankey]

Thanks Mankey. That seems to be it in a nutshell.

I'm very blunt. People don't always like it.

 

[pandora]

I think some Christians will have an emotional reaction and not be able to understand it, even though I think it was very well-written. You will have at least planted a seed (so to speak) in every Christian who reads it carefully, whether they really understand us and respect us or not.

 

By the way, Ruby Sera, that was awesome! I look forward to reading the stuff you're going to write for that magazine.

[R. S. Martin]

Thanks Pandora. I never thought about "emotional reactions." I just think about wanting to understand because that is what I so desperately want. I put a lot of time into it because I really wanted to get a message across and I sensed that elaborate intellectualizing would miss the boat entirely. The person hasn't signed in since.

 

About the magazine. I will have to wait to see how much of it they print. I doubt that I am allowed to publish it here. Haven't asked but it just seems that would violate copyright for them. Here's the website if you want to subscribe.

 

I'm using my pen name R. S. Martin. It felt like quite a decision going into the print media under that name but eventually I made that decision so I guess that's the way it is.

 

Basically it's a philosophical piece about my deconversion about how the plan of salvation failed. Christianity doesn't explain how heaven's gates opened when Jesus died and there is no logical explanation for it so I cannot believe it. Basically the same story I've told on various occasions here. I do mention exC. As stated, I don't know what or how much they will publish.

[Kirangel]

You will of course be dealing with the fundamentalist atheists as well?

Thus spake some fundy. I took it as an opportunity to explain what atheism is as follows:

 

Yes of course. When fundamentalist atheists start killing in the name of their deity we will deal with them, too.

 

Apparently you think atheism is a religion. You might find

this

helpful to see how atheists answer Christian arguments.

 

False: Atheists say there is no God.

True: Atheists say I see no evidence for God.

 

Theist

: I believe in God.

Atheist

: I have no belief in God.

 

Religious Person

: Arranges life according to rules of religion. Also focuses on making a living, enjoying friends and family, and being happy.

Atheist

: No religion. Focuses on making a living, enjoying friends and family, and being happy.

 

Conclusion

: Fundamentalist atheists do not kill in the name of their deity because they do not have a deity. Atheism is not a religion because it is not a belief system.

 

Freethought and humanism are life philosophies that some atheists hold. Not all atheists hold these philosophies.

 

This thread is about sociology and anthropology of religion. It is impossible to talk about the sociology and anthropology of the religion of people who have no religion.

 

If you disagree that atheism is not a religion, please provide the evidence for your argument, and the names of the authors or websites where you found your information. Thank you.

 

Will that even make sense to a fundy? Could it be explained better?

 

 

I haven't read all of the responses, but...well stated. What was the context surrounding the original statement that you were responding to? If you already said it then just ignore that question, I plan on reading the other responses.

 

What you wrote was pretty clear and concise, so if it doesn't make sense to them then I don't know what will.

[R. S. Martin]

Here is where it was originally posted. That's my own forums. If you click on my sig here on this post, it will take you to the website, which has a link to the forums. But this link will take you there directly.

 

It's pretty lonely over there. I spend most of my time here. This is where my home and my friends are. But I lay a foundation and structure over there so something can grow.

 

I've been study pretty hard and heavy the past several days so I didn't get so much posted. I'm not sure how to manage everything. But anyway, that's the answer to your question. The context for the original post was at the link above.

 

It was a newbie running through the place. Spent four seconds short of four minutes on the forums and posted two one-liners. In bboth cases the person used the terms "fundamentalist atheist." That's the only times that term is used on the entire forums so far as I know. Must have something sticking in his/her craw.

[Kirangel]

Cool thanks for letting me know. That site is an awesome idea, when did you start it?

[R. S. Martin]

Thanks! I started it about May 9 this year. It's been through a lot of phases and ups and downs. This thread is a record of sorts or history of how it came to be and the various calamities that beset it over the months and how we recovered from each set-back. Feel free to browse at your liesure. You might find some other valuable ideas and resources. Sources of info can be found at: The Index of Sources on the website, and on the forums at Lab Tools and Religious Studies. It's not so much a support group as to education and disseminate information.

[Rev R]

Maybe you're right.

Don't let that spread around.

 

 

They certainly act like this were their goal but they don't say so. I try to speak and act in consonance with my true feelings. One wastes less energy that way.

An admirable trait.

 

If they wanted to actually accomplish something of value, they should come out and say what it is they want, rather than try to trick me into conversion. Tricks don't work with me. The opening statement was posted on my forums and on the craziest thread possible. Way off-topic if you ask me. It was as though the person joined for the specific purpose to "make me think" about the "evils of my ways" in fighting fundamentalist religion.

To be honest I am beginning to think that there is a Fundie Guide to World Domination. I keep seeing the same tactics and arguments used in the same order. Thankfully most of my dealings with fundies are online so I can just shut off the browser. I admire the strength it takes to deal with this shit day in and day out in the "real world". It keeps me visiting even though I'm not an Ex-Christian.

 

It bothers me that some people consider existence in the here and now to be a disease.

 

There's a vivid description in the NT about how we should approach the enemy with self-confidence--it's commonly called the Armor of the Lord. Apparently, it also works when approaching the army of the lord.

Personally I prefer Musashi's "striking out the heart".

 

Power struggles, insecurities, delusions of grandeur - the Sõtõ sect hasn't grasped the teachings it seems, and it hasn't changed for the last 800 years either.

Maybe one day someone will figure it out and try to set it right. In the meantime I'll absorb what is useful and discard the rest.

 

Ruby was concise and straight to the point. If there is still any doubt as to what atheist means to these fundies then there can be no hope in having an intelligent conversation with them.

Agreed Sensei. I'm beginning to think that they can't stomach the concept of people being happy without their particular magic bullet, so they strive to create unhappiness and conflict.

[R. S. Martin]

If they wanted to actually accomplish something of value, they should come out and say what it is they want, rather than try to trick me into conversion. Tricks don't work with me. The opening statement was posted on my forums and on the craziest thread possible. Way off-topic if you ask me. It was as though the person joined for the specific purpose to "make me think" about the "evils of my ways" in fighting fundamentalist religion.

To be honest I am beginning to think that there is a Fundie Guide to World Domination. I keep seeing the same tactics and arguments used in the same order. Thankfully most of my dealings with fundies are online so I can just shut off the browser. I admire the strength it takes to deal with this shit day in and day out in the "real world". It keeps me visiting even though I'm not an Ex-Christian.

 

I can't handle it, either, in real life. I steer clear of fundies where possible and avoid talking religion when with fundies if possible. This seems to be working fairly well. There's not too much open evangelization in the area where I live. For this I am very grateful. It was feel very unsafe going out if things were otherwise.

 

Ruby was concise and straight to the point. If there is still any doubt as to what atheist means to these fundies then there can be no hope in having an intelligent conversation with them.

Agreed Sensei.

 

I think there is no hope and that other ways have to be found. These "other ways" is what I am looking for and seeking both with my studies and with my forums and website and whatever means occur to me.

 

 

It bothers me that some people consider existence in the here and now to be a disease.

 

Hey, nice way of putting it. Might be new ammunition for my next argument with these folks. When/if the opportunity arrises I might ask: Just why all this worry about the afterlife; what's wrong with living now? Only problem is I know the answer ahead of time. There is a genuine fear of landing in hell if one does not profess to believe the right things while living in this life. It is unutterably sad.

 

Yesterday I didn't even sign in here. Was busy working on my thesis. I'm studying fundamentalist leaders. Right now I'm doing an author of the 1800s. I chose to present his reality sympathetically. It's so sad it nearly breaks my heart. He's a thorough-going Calvinist. You can read his concept of God here. This is the homepage. You'll have to go into the links. Cookie Cutter Christians is what occurred to me after summarizing his first volume. There's three of them to go through. They're all online but you probably don't want to read them. If you do, let me know and I can give you the link.

 

I'm beginning to think that they can't stomach the concept of people being happy without their particular magic bullet, so they strive to create unhappiness and conflict.

 

There is wisdom in your words. The only religion with which I have any level of familiarity is Christianity. And when they have created enough unhappiness and conflict the time is ripe to apply the all-time, time-tested and proven remedy: Jesus Christ and him crucified. Only in and through him can we find the peace we so much covet. So the line goes. But first, we must create the need and niche so that we can appreciate the help he can give. Makes me want to scream.

[Oldjew]

Some atheists believe in the nonexistence of all Gods; others limit their atheism to specific Gods, such as the Christian God, rather than making flat-out denials.

 

Thats the most ridiculous statement I ever heard. Atheist means you do not believe in any god, PERIOD! Not one god, not two gods or goddesses or supernatural beings but NO GODS!

[Jun]

Some atheists believe in the nonexistence of all Gods; others limit their atheism to specific Gods, such as the Christian God, rather than making flat-out denials.

 

Thats the most ridiculous statement I ever heard. Atheist means you do not believe in any god, PERIOD! Not one god, not two gods or goddesses or supernatural beings but NO GODS!

 

 

 

That's why I spaced it apart from the quote above it. It started off on the right track.