Drink, Drank, Drunk

[webmdave]

By Stronger Now

 

I find myself thinking of all the questions I had when I was a Xtian about the stuff I read in the Bible. One that always stuck out with me was weather or not wine was a bad thing or a good thing. It was explained to me that anything that is done in excess is bad. It was also explained that the alcohol in the wine was toxic and that made it bad. I was told that wine at small doses was okay, but one should never drink to excess. I was told a great many things but never how a Christian can even get drunk.

 

Stupid question right? Read on.

 

Now, as any good health professional and scientist knows, ethanol is a toxic substance. It is a CNS depressant that can cause decreased motor function and, in high quantities, coma and death. This seems to be the Xtian viewpoint as well as the added "spiritual toxicity" that is also present.

 

Most people that consume alcohol do so at levels well under the lethal level. It is a bone of contention between some Xtian denominations weather or not any alcohol consumption should be tolerated. Which again brings me to ask why all the fuss? A True Christian cannot get drunk anyway right?

 

Think I made that bit up? It's in there.

 

Look at Mark 16:18.

 

It only stands to reason that

 

1) Alcohol is a toxic substance.

 

2) True Christians are immune to the harmful effects of ANY toxic substance.

 

3) Inebriation at any level, is a toxic effect of alcohol consumption, therefore a True Christian cannot get drunk no matter how much wine they drink.

 

Of course this is not true. It would only take a couple of glasses of wine to show a true Christian how untrue it is. But then it would only show the true Christian that he or she isn’t really a true Christian. In other words, why the buzz? Or, she or he could go for option #2 and be a true Christian that knows that the bible isn't true.

 

So tell me Christians, do you trust your faith, your bible, or science?

 

http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2007/09...rank-drunk.html

[Mankey]

HAHAHA! hehe!

 

[Oldjew]

Actually the wine the bible speaks of is the word vine as the juice of the vine and not the fermented kind. But the fermented kind was available in those times but when Jesus turned the water into wine he turned the water into fruit juice and at the Last Supper he drank fruit juice and not the fermented kind as the bible also says not to drink strong drink which means the fermented kind as that is what they called alcoholic drinks in those times; "strong drink" as opposed to "weak drink."

[Mankey]

Actually the wine the bible speaks of is the word vine as the juice of the vine and not the fermented kind. But the fermented kind was available in those times but when Jesus turned the water into wine he turned the water into fruit juice and at the Last Supper he drank fruit juice and not the fermented kind as the bible also says not to drink strong drink which means the fermented kind as that is what they called alcoholic drinks in those times; "strong drink" as opposed to "weak drink."

There is scripture that encourages drinking....and possibly getting drunk according to my reading. hehe.

[Guest Marty]

There is scripture that encourages drinking....and possibly getting drunk according to my reading. hehe.

 

Proverbs 31:6

 

"Give strong drink to him who is perishing, and wine to those in bitter distress; let them drink and forget their poverty, and remember their misery no more."

[מה טבו]

There is scripture that encourages drinking....and possibly getting drunk according to my reading. hehe.

 

Actually, in the Tanakh (a.k.a. the "Old Testament), there's a lot of encouragement to drink. The virtues of wine are extolled repeatedly, although there is a bit of caution about taking it routinely to excess (being a "drunkard"). Basically, the attitude of the ancient Jews (and to my own knowledge, the modern ones as well) is, "Booze rocks - enjoy it - even get sloshed on occasion. Just don't make a habit out of it."

 

I really don't remember enough about Christianity to recall where the doctrine of prohibition comes in.

[Babelfish]

Here is a decent analysis from a xtian perspective.

[LithaB]

One of my favorite Bible verses on tithing (which I found on my own because it was NEVER quoted at any church I ever attended):

 

from Deuteronomy 14

 

22 Thou shalt surely tithe all the increase of thy seed, that which cometh forth from the field year by year.

 

23 And thou shalt eat before Jehovah thy God, in the place which he shall choose, to cause his name to dwell there, the tithe of thy grain, of thy new wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herd and of thy flock; that thou mayest learn to fear Jehovah thy God always.

 

24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it, because the place is too far from thee, which Jehovah thy God shall choose, to set his name there, when Jehovah thy God shall bless thee;

 

25 then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thy hand, and shalt go unto the place which Jehovah thy God shall choose:

 

26 and thou shalt bestow the money for whatsoever thy soul desireth, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul asketh of thee; and thou shalt eat there before Jehovah thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou and thy household.

 

 

Now that's tithe I can get onboard with!

[R. S. Martin]

Litha, I don't quite follow. Is that saying, take a tenth of whatever grows, take it to church (or if it's too much to carry so far, sell it and take the money and then buy food when you get there) and have a fellowship meal with your tithe when you get to church?

[woodsmoke]

That seems to be the idea, yeah. You don't actually lose your 10%, you just take it to the clubhouse and throw a party with it.

[HadouKen24]

Actually the wine the bible speaks of is the word vine as the juice of the vine and not the fermented kind. But the fermented kind was available in those times but when Jesus turned the water into wine he turned the water into fruit juice and at the Last Supper he drank fruit juice and not the fermented kind as the bible also says not to drink strong drink which means the fermented kind as that is what they called alcoholic drinks in those times; "strong drink" as opposed to "weak drink."

 

Eh? Grape juice isn't grape juice for very long at all before it starts turning into wine. Fermentation happens pretty quickly; a couple days after juicing, and you're already dealing with a (rather nasty) weak wine, depending on the quality of the yeast. You can't have "juice of the vine" that isn't wine unless it's fresh-squeezed or pasteurized. I know that they didn't drink their grape juice fresh-squeezed simply because of the sheer number of vats and jars we've found specifically for holding "grape juice," and I'm not aware of any pasteurization (and subsequent hermetic sealing, which is also necessary to prevent fermentation) of grape juice prior to Thomas Welch in the 19th century. If it wasn't fresh-squeezed, and it wasn't pasteurized, then it was wine.

 

However, wine was often drunk mixed with water. At least, that's how the Greeks and Romans did it. I don't know the practices of the ancient Hebrews, but it would be my suspicion that they did much the same. "Strong drink" would be undiluted wine, if that's the case.

[white_raven23]

Refrigeration wasn't an option either. And that part of the world more closely resembles an oven. Grape juice sure wouldn't stay grape juice for long.

[trashy]

Actually the wine the bible speaks of is the word vine as the juice of the vine and not the fermented kind. But the fermented kind was available in those times but when Jesus turned the water into wine he turned the water into fruit juice and at the Last Supper he drank fruit juice and not the fermented kind as the bible also says not to drink strong drink which means the fermented kind as that is what they called alcoholic drinks in those times; "strong drink" as opposed to "weak drink."

 

Actually, no, you are incorrect. From the example you gave, when Jesus turned the water into the wine: "Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now." So what is the difference between good and worse wine? In this example the ruler of the feast said that the typical feast begins with good wine until people get drunk, and then they are served the 'worse' wine. Exactly how do they get to the drunk stage if the 'good' wine is just fruit juice?

[upstarter]

I'm curious to know what others (RubySera for instance) were taught about drinking alcohol. What I was taught was that drinking in moderation wouldn't be a sin because obviously Jesus made wine etc. But that was a different time, and not much else was available to drink and now we have plenty of alternatives and we don't need to drink wine. That was point one. Point two, and the one that my parents took very seriously was that as xtians we needed to be above the temptations of the world because we needed to be shining examples of goodness. And even if WE weren't drinking to excess, someone might see us drinking and get the wrong impression and think that drinking was okay. And THEY might drink to excess and we would have caused someone else to sin.

 

I'm sure there was some bible verse my mother always quoted to support this... something about causing others to stumble? I honestly can't remember. Perhaps I've drowned too many brain cells in alcohol.