fallenleaf Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 I am putting this in Ex-Christian Life because it relates to religion after being a Christian. It is not a theological issue of any concern to anyone here. Feel free to respond, laughing, mocking, rebutting, disagreeing, agreeing, about donuts, etc. This is not a topic really... although you may feel like responding to something said. Recently I was talking with someone about my rather eclectic beliefs when he mentioned that he always thought I was an atheist. To which I responded that I was... which only confused the subject further because I was just talking of a deity as a real being just a few sentences above. It is going to take some rather long explanation and everyone should hold on to their seat and keep their hands and arms inside the vehicle. I typically talk of my "beliefs" in terms of Buddhist expression. This is because my beliefs most closely model those found in Buddhism and what I practice is often officially recognized as a form of Buddhism. The first thing to mention is that technically I consider myself Erisian. That is, my beliefs extend as a subset of the beliefs expressed in the Principia Discordia. Does this mean that my views represent the views of any others? Not at all, one of the firm beliefs of Erisianism states, "It is an Old Erisian Tradition to never agree with each other about Saints." And it is well known that it is just as old a tradition to never agree about any doctrinal issue at all. This is in accordance with the fifth commandment: A Discordian is Prohibited of Believing what he reads. Note that in many ways the term Discordian is interchangeable with Erisian except for where it is not. In my view, Discordians tend toward the more paganistic view preached in the Principia Discordia while Erisians tend to the more Buddhist one. And the kooks just use whatever they feel like at the moment. In accordance with tradition, our holy book does not even agree with itself on several key points. Okay, so what's the deal with Eris? The patron goddess of this religion... is she real or is she fake? Yes... to both. You see she is real when she is but not when she isn't. More often than not, she is non-real but no good Erisian will rule out the possibility that she'll be real just in time to really screw them over royally. The real nature of Eris is almost always taken for granted, at least as a literary device, by the more pagan Discordians and the fake nature of her is more often taken for granted by the more Buddhist leaning Erisians. In accordance with our beliefs, we excommunicate all those who happen to disagree with us at any point in time -- not excluding ourselves -- and they excommunicate us in turn. But I am getting off topic here, do I believe in Eris or not? Am I an atheist or, at the very least agnostic? Now, I need to turn towards Buddhism to help explain. In Buddhism there is what is known as the eightfold path. These are the eight things needed to help reduce and eliminate suffering. What must be understood is that a person does not fail or succeed at these. They practice them with a certain amount of "skill." Think of it like this... imagine a triathalon. A person must run, swim, and bike to complete it. I am fully able to participate in a triatholon. I can run, swim, and bike. But I promise that I would not be a contender for any placement -- unless I competed alone. I will perform each of those actions but not with the same level of skill as a trained athlete. The eightfold path is like this. Everyone is behaving in some manner according to the path but they may be acting very unskilled at it. A person who drank and beat others would be acting with very poor skill. But they are not off the path as long as they are working on it. Well, that's a bad example but the point should be clear. According to my understanding, which I believe to be most correct, the path of "Right Understanding" includes the understanding that there is no god. So, as a flat value I assert that atheism is right understanding. But sometimes the mind is confronted with something which is very hard to comprehend because a person lacks the skill to fully understand how it came about without divine intervention. In these cases, god does exist... simply in the mind of the person to permit them to move beyond the problem and not get caught up in it. This quite literally is the god of the gaps because when a gap is confronted which makes a person uncomfortable they can imagine this god to solve the problem and move on... leaving the gap and the god behind as they both are useless outside that one unskilled area of right understanding. The act of using this god-understanding is an unskilled one but prevents what might be an unsurmountable hinderance. The general idea is that this concept is to be used less and less as one get better skilled at right understanding until one becomes fully aware of how things happen without needing god. The next question is, does that matter to Buddhism... does it weaken and hurt it. Not only has the last paragraph dealt with that there is the story of the poisoned arrow: He asked Malunkyaputta to imagine a man who had been wounded by a poisoned arrow. His friends and relatives send for a surgeon but when the surgeon arrives, the wounded man says: 'I will not let the surgeon pull out this arrow until I know whether the man who wounded me was a noble or a brahmin (priest), or a merchant or a worker...tall, short, or middle height...brown or golden-skinned...whether he lives in such a village or town or city...whether the bow that wounded me was a long bow or a cross bow...' and so on. The Buddha then explains that before all the wounded man's questions would have been answered he would have died. The Buddha's point is that whilst we speculate on questions such as those above we are missing the main point of his teachings. These are encapsulated in the four noble truths: 'This is suffering', 'this is the origin of suffering', 'this is the cessation of suffering' and 'this is the way that leads to the cessation of suffering'. He declares that to speculate on such questions is a distraction from what is essential to lead a holy life - it does not lead 'to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana'. The point is explained by the page I quote but let me reinforce it. The idea of god is a meaningless point. A person does not need to understand that one does not exist to find greater peace and for many people the idea that one does not exist will actually cause them to suffer. In those cases, it becomes important to remember that the existence of god is a worthless question. It doesn't matter in Buddhism if god exists or not. The Buddha spoke of gods and told men to not be bothered by their existence or non-existence because the gods were unable to help them. The gods have no ability to help a person be more skilled at the eightfold path nor the ability to snap their fingers and have people reach the goal. The gods are actually in a worse place than humans in regards to nibbana. You should note that all Erisians disagree with each other. I am currently working on a book which will detail all the Buddhist allusions and meanings in the most common holy work as well as discuss why it is clear the authors intended the book to be a Buddhist guide. Others will insist that there is no Buddhism there... and still others will point out, "You know that's just supposed to be a joke right?" Yeah, we're all right and that feels good. 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Fweethawt Posted July 8, 2005 Share Posted July 8, 2005 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fallenleaf Posted July 9, 2005 Author Share Posted July 9, 2005 Not really sure if you're confused, have a question, or just wanted to reply to this. Probably a little of each. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 Not really sure if you're confused, have a question, or just wanted to reply to this. Probably a little of each. Don't worry... After I read that, I wasn't sure if I was confused, had a question, or just wanted to reply to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 my head hurts now after trying to figure that all out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islington Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 Excuse me, where is the Question? I am not so firm with the buddistic way and even my knowledge of the traditional view of Eris is not big. But if you confused someone, it would be in the way of Eris, wouldn't it? Islington Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 Thanx Ericf, I think that is very good view, and I agree, which means I'm not a true follower of Erisian... I know way to little about Buddhism, so when your book is out, I want to get a copy, and I promise to not believe it when I read it, like a good Erisian , and of course you won't believe I will, when you read this message! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fallenleaf Posted July 10, 2005 Author Share Posted July 10, 2005 Excuse me, where is the Question? I am not so firm with the buddistic way and even my knowledge of the traditional view of Eris is not big. But if you confused someone, it would be in the way of Eris, wouldn't it? lol, there is no question. I was just expounding on my view of the "god" question. Yes, confusion is the gift of Eris as is chaos. So it looks like I did much to please her. I know way to little about Buddhism, so when your book is out, I want to get a copy, and I promise to not believe it when I read it... It's going to be a little bit. You see, I have tons of secondary sources but a dearth or primary ones. And as much as I like empty rambling, I have enough college under my belt to appreciate a fair inclusion of primary sources. My problem then becomes finding a variety of translations of primary sources and determining which ones best reflect the meaning of the original. And it's bad enough that I'm working on picking up some Sanscrit and Pali to help me along. Who knows, I may give up my quest for well supported opinions and just fall prey to the ease of supporting them with just the opinions of others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purple Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 Interesting, after I left xiananity I went into SGI Buddism, that form has some of the same problems to me that xianity has, but after being a fundy for so long just the lack of a sin concept was freeing. I read all the freakin time at that time in my life and found discordia, and it helped me find a sense of humor about spirituality, faith and all religious thought, which was even more freeing. Back then though I cared, I wanted to know the truth etc. Now, I just don't care. I care so little about if there is a god, or if there is not and all of it, sometimes I don't think I can call myself an atheist, cuz... most atheists seem to care more about there not being a god then I do. ::: shrug :: I do like watching Eris on the Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fallenleaf Posted July 11, 2005 Author Share Posted July 11, 2005 ... at that time in my life and found discordia, and it helped me find a sense of humor about spirituality, faith and all religious thought, which was even more freeing. Back then though I cared, I wanted to know the truth etc. Now, I just don't care. I care so little about if there is a god, or if there is not and all of it, sometimes I don't think I can call myself an atheist, cuz... most atheists seem to care more about there not being a god then I do. ::: shrug :: lol, that's the best thing about discordia... the fact that it teaches you to laugh about religion and spirituality again. Before I found it, I believed religion was a deadly serious issue and I should dedicate my life to finding out which one was right. After, it was just like... whatever, I'll figure out what I believe as I go along. And I agree that there are people on both sides of the fence that take themselves too seriously. Greyface has them in his foul clutches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 lol, that's the best thing about discordia... the fact that it teaches you to laugh about religion and spirituality again. I've never read Discordia, but Terry Pratchett puts religion in a humorous light in the Discworld series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted June 3, 2007 Share Posted June 3, 2007 Fallenleaf I really enjoyed reading this opening post. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jun Posted June 3, 2007 Share Posted June 3, 2007 These are encapsulated in the four noble truths: 'This is suffering', 'this is the origin of suffering', 'this is the cessation of suffering' and 'this is the way that leads to the cessation of suffering'. If I may, I'd like to re-word that in accordance with the original text in Pali that has been the cause of much confusion. It should read - there is suffering (or suffering exists); we should understand the cause or origin of suffering; there is an end to suffering; and there is a path to be followed to help end suffering. The key words - there is - play an important part in understanding the Buddha's teaching. He didn't say life is suffering. It is just a simple recogniton that there is suffering. Something to be mindful of. The first Noble Truth is not I am suffering, or life is suffering. That's not it at all. It's not a metaphysical statement saying that everything is suffering. Non-Buddhists often have this idea, believing that Buddhism is negative. The second Noble Truth is that suffering should (and can) be understood. Suffering is something to understand. The third Noble Truth is that there is an end to suffering. The fourth Noble Truth is that there is a path which one can follow to help end/control suffering. The fourth Noble truth is the way to follow to end suffering - the eightfold path. A path that requires an ongoing attitude of vigilance, mindfulness. A lifetimes reflection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fallenleaf Posted June 3, 2007 Author Share Posted June 3, 2007 Wow, this is an old thread. It's been almost two years since I posted that. I think I cut and pasted that version of the 4 Noble Truths because that doesn't seem like how I would state them (ah, yes it was from a quote)... and, looking back much later, I have to agree the wording is misleading. And I forget what inspired that rant but I think it obviously inspired quite the rambling mess. I still believe, possibly incorrectly, that the eightfold path is a matter of practice and degrees. And that, with time, one becomes more skillful at following the path. I think I have and I have left much of the Erisian nonsense behind except those things which amuse me. I think it was always mostly about enjoying it because it amused me. Eris taught me to laugh at my own seriousness in regards to belief. That was an important lesson for me. Laugh at your foolishness and accept it, watch it arise, and watch it go. I can often be foolish and other times I am wise. But in the end... I'm neither. I was almost embarrassed when this thread came back... thinking, "Oh man... what was I on to post something like that!?!" But that was just a moment in time and it's no worse than any other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jun Posted June 3, 2007 Share Posted June 3, 2007 I still believe, possibly incorrectly, that the eightfold path is a matter of practice and degrees. And that, with time, one becomes more skillful at following the path. That would be a correct assumption. It teaches one to reflect upon the importance of taking responsibility for what we say and do in our lives. There is nothing to be followed in a fixed orthodox way, we try it out and practice in different ways as we progress. I think I have and I have left much of the Erisian nonsense behind except those things which amuse me. I think it was always mostly about enjoying it because it amused me. I don't think it was ever intended to be followed as a serious "religion" or "philosophy." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fallenleaf Posted June 3, 2007 Author Share Posted June 3, 2007 If someone takes it seriously, they missed the point. And there is nothing wrong with being silly sometimes. I think humor is a good teaching tool because it often goes right past walls that people build up to protect their "self" from being threatened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purple Posted June 3, 2007 Share Posted June 3, 2007 K, but really the real question is who is the better representation of the Goddess? Bubbles, Blossom or Buttercup, or should we go with her representation on Billy and Mandy? Personally I think Billy and Mandy is too obvious a choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fallenleaf Posted June 4, 2007 Author Share Posted June 4, 2007 Oh that's easy... Bubbles, Blossom, and Buttercup are the Erisian trinity... representing the goddess in three parts. Bubbles represents the innocence and purity that was betrayed when Eris wasn't invited to the feast, Buttercup represents her desire to act -- and damn the consequences, but out of the Trinity... Blossom is the Goddess-head. She represents the mean and bitter streak of a woman scorned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 I still believe, possibly incorrectly, that the eightfold path is a matter of practice and degrees. And that, with time, one becomes more skillful at following the path. That would be a correct assumption. It teaches one to reflect upon the importance of taking responsibility for what we say and do in our lives. There is nothing to be followed in a fixed orthodox way, we try it out and practice in different ways as we progress. I also agree. My own acceptance and application of Buddhism basically boils down to the Eightfold Path, and I think that's really all you need. I think you're doing well Heh - your first post about your mostly former Erisian beliefs made my head hurt also, but if it just muddles up your life, toss it out. Doesn't sound terribly useful to me, anyhoo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HadouKen24 Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 I don't think it was ever intended to be followed as a serious "religion" or "philosophy." Some have said that it is a gigantic joke disguised as a religion. Some others have said that it is a religion disguised as a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolution_beyond Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 I think it is a religion disguised as a joke disguised as a religion disguised as a joke personally (and possibly ad infinitum) If there was a god worth having, it would be Eris. But even Eris is not a god (she's a goddess). Eris is chaos, pure and simple - and chaos means humour, irreverence, freedom and an absence of design in the Universe. I love the Principia Discordia! Free love and debauched sex for all! Evolution_beyond (beyond what? beyond what was before - towards who knows what) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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