Guest end3 Posted September 21, 2007 Share Posted September 21, 2007 A few ideas here.....1) Does the force of the wind on let's say a tree leaf or branch play a role, a mechanism by the plant to use the flexing, twisting, etc.? Not bringing CO2 to the plant, but the force aspect....can you build a better wind harvester than a big propeller? 2) We live near a wind farm, and the turbines are very large. I am asking if would be better to array many small ones in different orientations (like leaves on a tree branch perhaps), to catch small updrafts, downdrafts, etc. I will assume the math or cost/return says no. 3) Leaf shapes and the wind force relationship, is there one? Does the shape of the leaves dictate some three dimension pattern in its movement, or is it random, and how would test that? and 4) The wind relationship to Chritianity, (I don't really want to go there if at all possible). I read through the whoooole thread the other day, and yes, it was very "young" on my part ..... Just thought I would ask here as I was impressed with the knowledge base. KF, I know it is not quite the description of the forum, so whatever you decide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted September 21, 2007 Share Posted September 21, 2007 End3, I am in no way an engineer type person... having said that, I don't see leaves having any benefit to harness wind. Evolution would not lend itself to refine leaves to be efficient and effective at catching the wind, because it is of no use to it. As you said, it is not even needed for transpiration. I think wind may actually contribute to problems for the tree, therefore leaves are generally flexible and nonresistant to wind, so that wind has as little effect on them as possible. Here in Florida, a very scary aspect in a hurricane is falling trees and branches. We hate that when that happens, and it's not too much benefit for the tree either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piprus Posted September 22, 2007 Share Posted September 22, 2007 A few ideas here.....1) Does the force of the wind on let's say a tree leaf or branch play a role, a mechanism by the plant to use the flexing, twisting, etc.? Not bringing CO2 to the plant, but the force aspect....can you build a better wind harvester than a big propeller? 2) We live near a wind farm, and the turbines are very large. I am asking if would be better to array many small ones in different orientations (like leaves on a tree branch perhaps), to catch small updrafts, downdrafts, etc. I will assume the math or cost/return says no. 3) Leaf shapes and the wind force relationship, is there one? Does the shape of the leaves dictate some three dimension pattern in its movement, or is it random, and how would test that? and 4) The wind relationship to Chritianity, (I don't really want to go there if at all possible). I read through the whoooole thread the other day, and yes, it was very "young" on my part ..... Just thought I would ask here as I was impressed with the knowledge base. KF, I know it is not quite the description of the forum, so whatever you decide. Not sure where you're going with this...are you attempting to discuss how best to use wind to generate electricity, perhaps? Or are you trying to tie wind somehow with christianity? If the latter is where you are trying to launch this thread, I would respond with something along the lines of how so many christians are self-inflating windbags. Does that help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jun Posted September 22, 2007 Share Posted September 22, 2007 I would respond with something along the lines of how so many christians are self-inflating windbags. Does that help? ha aha ahhahahahahahaa! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted September 22, 2007 Share Posted September 22, 2007 the first one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Structural Engineer Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 A few ideas here.....1) Does the force of the wind on let's say a tree leaf or branch play a role, a mechanism by the plant to use the flexing, twisting, etc.? Not bringing CO2 to the plant, but the force aspect....can you build a better wind harvester than a big propeller? 2) We live near a wind farm, and the turbines are very large. I am asking if would be better to array many small ones in different orientations (like leaves on a tree branch perhaps), to catch small updrafts, downdrafts, etc. I will assume the math or cost/return says no. 3) Leaf shapes and the wind force relationship, is there one? Does the shape of the leaves dictate some three dimension pattern in its movement, or is it random, and how would test that? and 4) The wind relationship to Chritianity, (I don't really want to go there if at all possible). I read through the whoooole thread the other day, and yes, it was very "young" on my part ..... Just thought I would ask here as I was impressed with the knowledge base. KF, I know it is not quite the description of the forum, so whatever you decide. Well, first off I'm having trouble understanding your English and your writing style so there is a big probability I will misunderstand something. Nonetheless I'll try and give it a go. 1) Does the force of the wind on let's say a tree leaf or branch play a role, a mechanism by the plant to use the flexing, twisting, etc.? Not bringing CO2 to the plant, but the force aspect....can you build a better wind harvester than a big propeller? The force of the wind plays no particular role in a tree unless it is the winds purpose to bring it down(which of course is ridiculous as it implies that the wind is smart). Branches and leaves twist and turn as a reaction to the wind's pressure. They do not break because they are flexible. On the other hand the branch is rigid. It will not twist and turn but its reaction to the wind is transmitted to its roots in the ground. If the wind pressure exceeds the bending moment capacity of the tree and the bearing strength of the soil, the tree will fall (The bearing strength of the soil affects the tree through friction between the soil and the roots. This gives the tree greater moment capacity if the soil is strong and less moment capacity if the soil is weak. What differs a weak soil from a strong one is another topic so i wont get into it). As mentioned before by yourself and Amanda, wind does not affect transpiration. So, can you build a better wind harvester than a big propeller? Right now, I don't think so. Whatever you use to catch the winds pressure it cant be flexible. If not the medium will absorb the energy. it has to be rigid in order to transmit and not absorb the energy(the way the branch transmitts to the roots and soil). if you know of a better design (at least a more efficient one) of making a rigid structure transmit energy other than a propeller, please let us know about it. 2) We live near a wind farm, and the turbines are very large. I am asking if would be better to array many small ones in different orientations (like leaves on a tree branch perhaps), to catch small updrafts, downdrafts, etc. I will assume the math or cost/return says no. Good Assumption. Mathematically it can be modeled especially with the computers we have today but interpreting those results into a final efficient design is the brain cracker here. Wind travels in currents and usually comes from one direction. A gust can come from here or there but its not feaseable to design a system that catches every little gust that does not follow the general direction of the current. Its too costly for the benefit obtained. Unless of course you have Bill Gates fortune and would like to try it for the hell of it 3) Leaf shapes and the wind force relationship, is there one? Does the shape of the leaves dictate some three dimension pattern in its movement, or is it random, and how would test that? Hmm Go back to question 1 I guess. My answer is no. Its all random. Its as random as when the wind blows your hair. Theres no real pattern there, at least none that has any effect on our lives I guess 4) The wind relationship to Chritianity, (I don't really want to go there if at all possible). Well I will if you don't mind. Anyone here remembers the new testament parable where Jesus says anyone who builds his life around him is like the man who built his house on the rock then winds and the storm came and the house was still there? Well thats like building your house on ignorance. The winds of science and reason have come and blown hard yet the church remains. Ignorance is a powerful tool for those who want to avoid reality or are to lazy to do some research. It takes a lot of time (years) to understand science and arts but they say "im so lazy i will accept everything was created in six days and that the bible is the word of god. i have better things to do like watch tv and keep my pastor fat and happy with my money" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 Taking the question as semi serious. Turbines work most efficiently simply because we have most experience in their design and deployment. In terms of the concept that one could harness shear, skew and compression... it's possible, but the concept that I know that could generate electromotive force would be a vaned piezo-electric matrix... The vanes could transfer the wind force to the crystals in a pretty efficient way, but then you're looking at storing a lot of shot duration high voltage low current 'jolts'... Unlike a turbine, the output profile would be spike, not curve, anf the Grid is designed to take fluctuations, not spikes (remember the NY black out?) So, IMO, it's possible, but off the top of my head I don't know how efficient it would be, nor how it could be linked to the grid... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Structural Engineer Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 Taking the question as semi serious. Turbines work most efficiently simply because we have most experience in their design and deployment. In terms of the concept that one could harness shear, skew and compression... it's possible, but the concept that I know that could generate electromotive force would be a vaned piezo-electric matrix... The vanes could transfer the wind force to the crystals in a pretty efficient way, but then you're looking at storing a lot of shot duration high voltage low current 'jolts'... Unlike a turbine, the output profile would be spike, not curve, anf the Grid is designed to take fluctuations, not spikes (remember the NY black out?) So, IMO, it's possible, but off the top of my head I don't know how efficient it would be, nor how it could be linked to the grid... hey grandpa, whats your field of work/research Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 It was the following 1) General blue Chip ICT 2) Trouble shooting... basically doing the projects no one would touch as too tough, too career dangerous, or ones that other people had fucked up 3) Convergent and Emerging technologies I'm now the 'general dogsbody' at a local Holistic Health Centre a friend of mine owns. I look after the PCs, come up with ideas for doing things on no budget and am generally a 'walking Google' for the therapists there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted September 26, 2007 Share Posted September 26, 2007 I contacted two piezoelectric device manufacturing companies....one has a patent on piezo fiber composites that they form into strands, similar in size to spaghetti. I thought that would work, but both companies suggested "nano" wind harvesting by this method would not generate enough energy for reasonable home applications. I still thought the strand idea was cool. Back to the drawing board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted September 26, 2007 Share Posted September 26, 2007 It's high voltage and vanishingly low ampage and since Power in Watts = voltage x current a low current means low power output. It would need a lot of work and some pretty fancy wiring to get anything much and as I said, it would be highly discontinuous... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 you had any more thoughts on this one GH? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 Not really... I'm up to my neck in writing marketing copy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mongo Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 Leaf shapes and the wind force relationship, is there one? Does the shape of the leaves dictate some three dimension pattern in its movement, or is it random, and how would test that? I have little doubt that there is a relationship between the shape of a leaf, wind and the lifecycle of the tree just as there is one between the texture and thickness of leaves in hot and cold climates. Setting aside tree evolution, the only other mechanism I can theorize on, might be related to providing the tree a form of exercise or stretching. Different leaf shapes might provide a different kind of push and pull that the tree may require. If people need stretching why not trees? As an offbeat comment, science has a myriad of discoveries made from accidents. It just occured to me that perhaps many theories/ideas were probably developed from accidents of grammar. (The ambiguity of end3's question inspired me to consider what I'd never thought of before.) Mongo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparrow Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 A few ideas here.....1) Does the force of the wind on let's say a tree leaf or branch play a role, a mechanism by the plant to use the flexing, twisting, etc.? Not bringing CO2 to the plant, but the force aspect....can you build a better wind harvester than a big propeller? 2) We live near a wind farm, and the turbines are very large. I am asking if would be better to array many small ones in different orientations (like leaves on a tree branch perhaps), to catch small updrafts, downdrafts, etc. I will assume the math or cost/return says no. 3) Leaf shapes and the wind force relationship, is there one? Does the shape of the leaves dictate some three dimension pattern in its movement, or is it random, and how would test that? and 4) The wind relationship to Chritianity, (I don't really want to go there if at all possible). I read through the whoooole thread the other day, and yes, it was very "young" on my part ..... Just thought I would ask here as I was impressed with the knowledge base. KF, I know it is not quite the description of the forum, so whatever you decide. If you question is one of the obscure ways to "prove" leaves were made by god - i.e. designed - because they "catch" the wind perfectly, then you're a conceited shit for trying weasel something in in a very transparent manner. If, on the other hand, you are gnuinely interested in an engineering question, then the answer stunningly simple - some leaves are well shape to take advantage of the wind, some are not. Would a leaf shaped blade be more efficient at generating electricty? Would many smaller wind turbines be more efficient than a big one? Well I think you have the answer to this already. The wind turbines you see are the way they are because thousands upon thousands upon thousands of hours of research inot blade shape has been spent on the very topic. The result of that research is the size and shape of the wind turbines you see. On top of this, whilst I am not 100% sure, since this thousands upon thousands upon thousands of hours of research has occured, I think it is safe to say that something like "leaf" shaped blades has been investigated for everything from wind turbines to aircraft propellors, to jet turbine impeller blades, etc. Ultimately, if this is an "evolution is all wrong" attempt, then I can pretty well guarantee that the issue is that you don't understand the theory of evolution rather evolution being wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 Naturally, I am an ass for an abstract thought about leaf shapes and harvesting small amounts of wind current, and naturally, there are others that are supremely smarter, for if it exists via humanity, then of couse it is of perfect design. But, if you would really like to talk about the wind with respect to Christianity, please. Did you not read my first post that said I did not want to discuss that????? You yourself said you weren't sure if leaf shapes had been investigated, but yet you have the answers. Thanks, I was having a good day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 I thought it was an engineering question. Leaves have to have sufficient surface area to get sufficient sunlight for photosynthesis, and aspiration CO2 to O2 metabolism with sunshine O2 to CO2 at night), coupled with a small enough surface area not to get ripped off easily by winds or cause the tree to dehydrate... The shear/skew effects on a tree is caused more by the tree branches and the trunk than its leaves. The question 'Could a tree like structure be used to efficiently produce energy from the wind?' and I think the answer is 'not in a usable sense'... a lot of high voltage, low ampage D.C. spikes is really not useful, with in constraints of current technologies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparrow Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 Naturally, I am an ass for an abstract thought about leaf shapes and harvesting small amounts of wind current, and naturally, there are others that are supremely smarter, for if it exists via humanity, then of couse it is of perfect design. But, if you would really like to talk about the wind with respect to Christianity, please. Did you not read my first post that said I did not want to discuss that????? You yourself said you weren't sure if leaf shapes had been investigated, but yet you have the answers. Thanks, I was having a good day. Actually I am sure that leaf shapes were investigated. They were investigated in 1911, 1936, 1957 and 1977 - these are the research items that are in my database of research items that hs been done on a certain topic. Yes, I'm a bitch .. it was a loaded question. Now I know your aim was to critisize evolution and you are not interested in engineering ... because if you were, you would have know about these famous experiments from previous readings of scientific papers. You are a troll - you are here to convert and you think that we are all idiots. Now here's something for you "Fuck Off troll!!" - I know what you are. Moron!!!!!!!!!!!! Spatz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 I am asking you to accept my post as honest. I am currently patent pending on an idea, so invention/abstract thought is something I try to practice. For example, the Moses Glowing Face thread....that was some of my strange "connect the dots" thinking, as I enjoy the Bible and also work in an analytical lab. If you read it, surely you will ask yourself, "How can anyone be that persistently dumb" other than pure niavite'(sp?) I was trying to solicit a few "nano" wind harvesting opinions as I am sure someday I will get rich for one of my revolutionary inventions. After my first experience/post, there seem to be many knowledgeable people here, so that is why I asked. Then I read the updated wind mech question and your post just hit me wrong. I am sorry, my response was a bad choice on my part. I assure you, I have never viewed Christianity through ex-Christians eyes. I have just changed occupations after working for an engineering firm for the last 15 years. I have no knowledge of the evolution experiments you mentioned. I tried to "unload" the post before it ever got put into the gun. Again, Christian, ex-Christian, Catholic, purple people eater, I don't care. I try to care on a human level. Christianity may have happened to me by geography, but you are right, it is natural for people (and me) to want to know "why" and "what happened" and "maybe you don't understand". Again, I am sorry for my response and misunderstanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted September 29, 2007 Share Posted September 29, 2007 Naturally, I am an ass for an abstract thought about leaf shapes and harvesting small amounts of wind current, and naturally, there are others that are supremely smarter, for if it exists via humanity, then of couse it is of perfect design. But, if you would really like to talk about the wind with respect to Christianity, please. Did you not read my first post that said I did not want to discuss that????? You yourself said you weren't sure if leaf shapes had been investigated, but yet you have the answers. Thanks, I was having a good day. Actually I am sure that leaf shapes were investigated. They were investigated in 1911, 1936, 1957 and 1977 - these are the research items that are in my database of research items that hs been done on a certain topic. Yes, I'm a bitch .. it was a loaded question. Now I know your aim was to critisize evolution and you are not interested in engineering ... because if you were, you would have know about these famous experiments from previous readings of scientific papers. You are a troll - you are here to convert and you think that we are all idiots. Now here's something for you "Fuck Off troll!!" - I know what you are. Moron!!!!!!!!!!!! Spatz Has anyone told you that you're magnificent when you're angry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 There is a gentleman that developed a micro generator using resonance of stretched mylar film to vibrate a button magnet inbetween two coils. Small wind current energy. You can search Windbelt and see the video. Extremely cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 An array of smaller ones is the superior method (look at wind farms). The reason is because of the many directions and updrafts etc etc you already mentioned. Now, a leaf is shaped to best gather sun in the environment it is in. A broad leaf, requires lots of mositure, and a lot less sun, so that is why elephant ears are so big (the plant not the animal doh). The leaves of some bushes are tiny, as they stand in direct sun with little moisture. Wind plays a role on leaves, but a small one. Wind blowing on leaves causes the plant to bend, causing micro "wounds" in the trunk, which scar over giving the plant greater strength, thus greater defense against storms and strong winds. They really are not intended to be "blades" to a fan, in fact, being cupped, they take a beating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 There is a gentleman that developed a micro generator using resonance of stretched mylar film to vibrate a button magnet inbetween two coils. Small wind current energy. You can search Windbelt and see the video. Extremely cool. Interesting take... I'll look it uplater... I got wrapped inthe gross movements of trees and the mechanical stresses being harnessed in some way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Druid Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 Taking the question as semi serious. Turbines work most efficiently simply because we have most experience in their design and deployment. In terms of the concept that one could harness shear, skew and compression... it's possible, but the concept that I know that could generate electromotive force would be a vaned piezo-electric matrix... The vanes could transfer the wind force to the crystals in a pretty efficient way, but then you're looking at storing a lot of shot duration high voltage low current 'jolts'... Unlike a turbine, the output profile would be spike, not curve, anf the Grid is designed to take fluctuations, not spikes (remember the NY black out?) So, IMO, it's possible, but off the top of my head I don't know how efficient it would be, nor how it could be linked to the grid... The "efficiency" (or the amount of energy we could get from them) of wind farms would be improved many times over not by redesign of the turbines to catch more energy but finding an efficient method to store vast amounts of energy. ATM the best way of storaging energy that we have is pumping water up a hill. It really doesn't matter at this time the amount of energy a turbine can extract from the wind other than the amount of turbines that you'd need. The fact of the matter is that we won't be able to make use of the potential energy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 21, 2007 Share Posted October 21, 2007 Mylar band windgenerator... impressive! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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