My Thoughts On Consciousness

[Guest Inch]

I decided to write down a few of my thoughts about consciousness. I'm sure subjective experience is something everyone spends a lot of time thinking about. As a christian I could only take my thinking so far before it would conflict with christian beliefs. Having freedom to think feels wonderful!

 

Here are some of the things I think now:

1. Memories are what make you think you are you, nothing else.
   
2. Without being able to record and recall memories it is impossible to be any more conscious than a rock.
   
3. Consciousness is a instantaneous or short term effect. The feeling of having the same consciousness/soul over time is an illusion.
   
4. There is no threshold above which something becomes conscious and below becomes unconscious but rather a continuum.
   
5. Consciousness is a fundamental part of our universe it is not limited to biological systems and wont be explained as simply an effect of other fundamental forces.
   

 

And here are some of my thought experiments:

 

Here is the set up

Have someone create a copy of your brain while you are unconscious, preferably simulated on a computer then it can be started and stopped. If done properly it will be your brain that is simulated but the effect of consciousness should be real and not simulated.

 

A few experiments to run.

1. Have the simulation started first and you woken second. Who will "you" be?
   
2. Run the simulation at half speed indefinitely, will it still be conscious? Keep halving the speed, will it stop being conscious?
   
3. Run the simulation for an hour, will it be conscious over that time? Restart it once during that how and run it again, keep doubling the restarts during its hour of running time. When will it stop being conscious?
   

Nothing really way out or original, but still fun to think about.

[Guest Inch]

If humans (or any other current era specie) had no memory or nervous system... we wouldn't exist. Humans and other species use memories to develop survival strategies. The increased memory capacity of our brains gave us the edge against wild and dangerous beasties

Consciousness, as far as we know, is currently limited to complex biological systems.... unless you are a theist, or you've actually built a self-aware robot in your basement.

 

Plant species don't have memory or a nervous system, yet they exist. But maybe I was stating the obvious.

 

I guess I should have said the ability to be conscious is not limited to biological systems. I am not listing facts, I am listing what I think. 200 years ago I could have said that the ability to preform complex mathematical operations was not limited to human brains. Would I have been wrong to say that?

[HuaiDan]

My little bit of idle speculation: What if memory and consciousness are our first rudimentary steps to time-travel awareness? What separates us as a species is our ability to visualize long term plans and take calculated steps to move toward that mental picture; sort of like nostalgia in reverse. As we broaden our visualization, in the past in the form of memory, and in the future in the form of planning and prediction, are we in essence expanding our perception over the 4th dimension, and by visualizing alternate future plans the 5th dimension as well?

 

As any program developer knows, the amount of information stored in any dimensional space increases by an exponential factor of that dimension. The amount of info stored in 1 dimensional space is n, 2D is n*n, 3D is n*n*n. So, as we move into 4th and 5th dimensional perception, our neuroelectrochemical activity will increase exponentially, as the benefit from the increased awareness, and changing the future by making plans would be enormous. Thus, you would see over the millenia, due to selective pressure, a dramatic increase neural activity evidenced by increased cranial capacity. Hey, ain't that what's happening?

[SWIM]

Cool thread! lemme take a stab at this. Mind you, this is *speculation and theory* on my part, take it with a grain of salt. (unless you are on a low sodium diet of course .

 

Let's define consciousness for a moment. I think of it as personality, that combination of brain functioning that manifest itself as how you act, think and believe.

 

I am guessing reading this post that you define it as "self awareness". So for the sake of conversation, that is the definition I will assume you are using.

 

I decided to write down a few of my thoughts about consciousness. I'm sure subjective experience is something everyone spends a lot of time thinking about. As a christian I could only take my thinking so far before it would conflict with christian beliefs. Having freedom to think feels wonderful!

Yes, freeform thinking is a no-no to most religions too, not just the xtians.

 

 

Here are some of the things I think now:

1. Memories are what make you think you are you, nothing else.

 
I disagree. Memories help build personality and intellect. They are recorded records on brain cells much like a hard-drive in a computer.
 

Without being able to record and recall memories it is impossible to be any more conscious than a rock.

 
If *you* the self inside looking out of your eyes is *aware* meaning, there is a *sense* that *you* exist, memories are irrelevant.
 

Consciousness is a instantaneous or short term effect. The feeling of having the same consciousness/soul over time is an illusion.

 
Quite possibly. But here is a theory. Self awareness *happened* to you once. You are aware you exist. This window into reality opened once. If infinity is truly endless, and time is truly endless, mathimatically it is a logical assumption that your little *window* may open again, somewhere sometime, maybe billions of years from now on a distant planet as a frog, or whatever.
 

There is no threshold above which something becomes conscious and below becomes unconscious but rather a continuum.

 
Many religious people claim animals have no sense of self. I tend to think they do. Brains are generators of self (among other things). *You* might have looked out the eyes of an animal before, it is not ruled out.
 

Consciousness is a fundamental part of our universe it is not limited to biological systems and wont be explained as simply an effect of other fundamental forces.

 

I think it is possible for a computer system to become "self" aware. Who knows if there is or is not a "window" or a "self" sensing existence in one? True by today's standards computer "brains" may not yet be complex enough for this to happen, but the future? Maybe. On a distant planet? Maybe..

 

And here are some of my thought experiments:

 

Here is the set up

Have someone create a copy of your brain while you are unconscious, preferably simulated on a computer then it can be started and stopped. If done properly it will be your brain that is simulated but the effect of consciousness should be real and not simulated.

 

A few experiments to run.

1. Have the simulation started first and you woken second. Who will "you" be?
   
2. Run the simulation at half speed indefinitely, will it still be conscious? Keep halving the speed, will it stop being conscious?
   
3. Run the simulation for an hour, will it be conscious over that time? Restart it once during that how and run it again, keep doubling the restarts during its hour of running time. When will it stop being conscious?
   

Nothing really way out or original, but still fun to think about.

 

If your experiment could be done, as soon as you fire up the simulation, you would have duel awareness. In other words you would sense *your* existence in both your brain and the simulation's brain.

 

If you could make an EXACT clone, perfect replication of your brain as well as your body, when you awaken *your* clone, then *self awareness" should occur in duel form. In other words, you would be looking our of "four" eyes and hear in quadraphonic...

 

In fact, this would be a a way to become immortal. Before you die, a clone of you is made, younger in better health. You know the operation went well, because you now see out of 4 eyes, the clone and you. Then you safely kill the original you. This is partly the theory of the "Asgard" on the series stargate, and how they last so long. They make a clone, then download the memories of the original, then kill the original.

 

Fascinating topic, I love talking about such things. Thanks for bringing it up!

 

[L.B.]

"The foot only feels the foot when it feels the ground."

 

I think that consciousness, however much of a 'self' we might feel, is totally dependent upon the relationship between input (through the senses) and output (our experience of or reaction to that sensory input).

 

We cannot exist without each other, because it is the other that makes us what we are. I am me BECAUSE there is something else NOT me. If it were possible to simply control a human body by its electrical impulses (raw physical movement) and for there not to be any related response to those stimuli OTHER THAN raw physical movement, then there would be no consciousness. Consciouness is the product of the stimuli we receive being translated into thoughts, feelings and so on.

 

I'm a bit tired and slightly under the weather, so if this seems disjointed or rambling, please forgive me. On a better day I might be able to express these ideas more cogently. Please feel free to ask questions to clarify anything I have posited if you think it will aid this most fascinating discussion.

[SWIM]

I am me BECAUSE there is something else NOT me.

 

I respectfully disagree. You are you BECAUSE you are aware. You CAN be aware in a vacuum. Remember the 60's isolation tank experiments? They did not cease to be simply because all the senses were inhibited. You might argue that ALL the senses were not suppressed, but it can be logically argued that the senses were at least "lessened". Did this have the effect of "lessening" self awareness? No, in fact sensory deprivation is actually used as torture since it can actually enhance self awareness.

 

Being aware you exist doesn't mean you need to know or guess at what "you" are, it merely means that you are *aware of you*. It requires no memory or intelligence. In your crib, you did not think in words, since you knew none, nor did you think in pictures, since you have not seen enough different things yet to form thoughts from the memories of pictures. All you had was *you* and an awareness that *you* exist.

 

If you were floating in space, far from the light of any stars, and your body was 100% numb, there is little doubt in my mind that if you were not "dead" in this state, that you would STILL be self aware... Of course your main thought would likely be "this kinda sucks ass..."

[L.B.]

Of course your main thought would likely be "this kinda sucks ass..."

 

LOL. Most assuredly.

 

I would still posit, however, that even a basic, undeveloped sense of what 'other' is, like that of an infant, is STILL a sense of 'other' that causes said infant to begin to draw inferences about what they ARE. It's deep stuff, I know, but it's that realization of duality, the 'self/other' dichotomy, that pervades our existence until we are released from the fog of believing in said permanent duality.

 

You know what, though? The beauty of your line of thinking is that even if all those circumstances were true (about floating in space, devoid of sensory input and so on) I STILL wouldn't have to believe in magical gods who have to save me. There would be a reason that I was in space like that... because that's where I was. Duh. No need to wonder if there's a 'god' with a 'will' that I am either 'in' our 'out' of. What bullshit.

 

(EDIT) Oh, one other thing, just to stir the pot a little... you mentioned sensory DEPRIVATION, not sensory ELIMINATION, as torture. We can only DEPRIVE sensory input to a certain degree before it is destroyed. As long as there is the POSSIBILITY of sensory input, there is still the potential for a person to recognize the "self/other" duality. As far as dwelling in isolated space with no sensory input to be had and no ability to experience it, I would have to have come into being in that condition in order for there to be a sense of self-awareness that was not tied to outside input. See what I mean? If I WERE ONCE aware of sensory input and then LOST the ability to process such input, I could still maintain a self-awareness based on those memories in my 'hard drive' brain, as you said. In order for self-awareness to be totally independent of sensory input of any kind, there would have to be an experiment done where some human creature could be created without EVER having sensory receptors of any kind, thus eliminating the possibility of even the most primal, base sparks of memory from serving as definers of the "self/other" duality.

[SWIM]

Of course your main thought would likely be "this kinda sucks ass..."

 

LOL. Most assuredly.

 

I would still posit, however, that even a basic, undeveloped sense of what 'other' is, like that of an infant, is STILL a sense of 'other' that causes said infant to begin to draw inferences about what they ARE. It's deep stuff, I know, but it's that realization of duality, the 'self/other' dichotomy, that pervades our existence until we are released from the fog of believing in said permanent duality.

 

You know what, though? The beauty of your line of thinking is that even if all those circumstances were true (about floating in space, devoid of sensory input and so on) I STILL wouldn't have to believe in magical gods who have to save me. There would be a reason that I was in space like that... because that's where I was. Duh. No need to wonder if there's a 'god' with a 'will' that I am either 'in' our 'out' of. What bullshit.

 

True about the god stuff.

 

However "other" is a pretty slim theory. Most folks are self centered anyways, you need not "care" what other is, merely being self aware is enough to be sentiant being.

[Guest Inch]

Cool thread! lemme take a stab at this. Mind you, this is *speculation and theory* on my part, take it with a grain of salt. (unless you are on a low sodium diet of course .

 

Let's define consciousness for a moment. I think of it as personality, that combination of brain functioning that manifest itself as how you act, think and believe.

 

I am guessing reading this post that you define it as "self awareness". So for the sake of conversation, that is the definition I will assume you are using.

 

Yes, "self awareness" was the definition I was using.

 

Here are some of the things I think now:

[*]Memories are what make you think you are you, nothing else.

 

I disagree. Memories help build personality and intellect. They are recorded records on brain cells much like a hard-drive in a computer.

 

[*]Without being able to record and recall memories it is impossible to be any more conscious than a rock.

 

If *you* the self inside looking out of your eyes is *aware* meaning, there is a *sense* that *you* exist, memories are irrelevant.

 

[*]Consciousness is a instantaneous or short term effect. The feeling of having the same consciousness/soul over time is an illusion.

 

Quite possibly. But here is a theory. Self awareness *happened* to you once. You are aware you exist. This window into reality opened once. If infinity is truly endless, and time is truly endless, mathimatically it is a logical assumption that your little *window* may open again, somewhere sometime, maybe billions of years from now on a distant planet as a frog, or whatever.

 

My problem with that theory is that *I* am now a separate entity from my body and no matter how much I think about it there is no way I can think of to detect that separation. If I could take your "window", close it and reopen it as my body when you wake up you will have no idea that you haven't been Brendon/Inch for your whole life. You will only have access to the memories of my body and those memories will include being self-aware in my past.

 

[*]There is no threshold above which something becomes conscious and below becomes unconscious but rather a continuum.

 

Many religious people claim animals have no sense of self. I tend to think they do. Brains are generators of self (among other things). *You* might have looked out the eyes of an animal before, it is not ruled out.

 

Yeah, I think some animals have a sense of self and others only have a dim awareness of existence but haven't the intelligence to recognise their place in it (did that make sense?).

 

If your experiment could be done, as soon as you fire up the simulation, you would have duel awareness. In other words you would sense *your* existence in both your brain and the simulation's brain.

 

If you could make an EXACT clone, perfect replication of your brain as well as your body, when you awaken *your* clone, then *self awareness" should occur in duel form. In other words, you would be looking our of "four" eyes and hear in quadraphonic...

 

In fact, this would be a a way to become immortal. Before you die, a clone of you is made, younger in better health. You know the operation went well, because you now see out of 4 eyes, the clone and you. Then you safely kill the original you. This is partly the theory of the "Asgard" on the series stargate, and how they last so long. They make a clone, then download the memories of the original, then kill the original.

 

Fascinating topic, I love talking about such things. Thanks for bringing it up!

 

 

Now you need an explanation for the transfer of information between your two bodies. If you are seeing through four eyes then body #1 could communicate to a person what the body #2 is seeing. Some sort of quantum entanglement might be used to explain it but I find that difficult to believe. What would happen if you separated the two bodies by a couple of light years?

 

 

I am me BECAUSE there is something else NOT me.

 

I respectfully disagree. You are you BECAUSE you are aware. You CAN be aware in a vacuum. Remember the 60's isolation tank experiments? They did not cease to be simply because all the senses were inhibited. You might argue that ALL the senses were not suppressed, but it can be logically argued that the senses were at least "lessened". Did this have the effect of "lessening" self awareness? No, in fact sensory deprivation is actually used as torture since it can actually enhance self awareness.

 

Is a rock a rock because there is something else that is not a rock? Seems like semantics to me. The difference is that a rock doesn't know it is a rock. You know you are you because your memories tell you so (+ some intellect I guess )

 

Try "lessening" a persons read and write access to their memory and see if it lessens their self-awareness. I bet it would. When I become lucid during a dream I can't really remember who I am, everything seems hazy and I can't think straight. When I am in a light sleep I sometimes have a sense of awareness but it is very dim. Sleep walking is another example.

[SWIM]

Quite possibly. But here is a theory. Self awareness *happened* to you once. You are aware you exist. This window into reality opened once. If infinity is truly endless, and time is truly endless, mathematically it is a logical assumption that your little *window* may open again, somewhere sometime, maybe billions of years from now on a distant planet as a frog, or whatever.

 

My problem with that theory is that *I* am now a separate entity from my body and no matter how much I think about it there is no way I can think of to detect that separation. If I could take your "window", close it and reopen it as my body when you wake up you will have no idea that you haven't been Brendon/Inch for your whole life. You will only have access to the memories of my body and those memories will include being self-aware in my past.

 

True, the separation would be undetectable within this theory. It's not about detection or memories, it's merely about this window into reality (or what we perceive reality to be).

[*]There is no threshold above which something becomes conscious and below becomes unconscious but rather a continuum.

 

Many religious people claim animals have no sense of self. I tend to think they do. Brains are generators of self (among other things). *You* might have looked out the eyes of an animal before, it is not ruled out.

 

Yeah, I think some animals have a sense of self and others only have a dim awareness of existence but haven't the intelligence to recognise their place in it (did that make sense?).

It is only about (in my theory) being aware. It requires no recognition or intelligence, just the sensation of "being".

 

If your experiment could be done, as soon as you fire up the simulation, you would have duel awareness. In other words you would sense *your* existence in both your brain and the simulation's brain.

 

If you could make an EXACT clone, perfect replication of your brain as well as your body, when you awaken *your* clone, then *self awareness" should occur in duel form. In other words, you would be looking our of "four" eyes and hear in quadraphonic...

 

In fact, this would be a a way to become immortal. Before you die, a clone of you is made, younger in better health. You know the operation went well, because you now see out of 4 eyes, the clone and you. Then you safely kill the original you. This is partly the theory of the "Asgard" on the series stargate, and how they last so long. They make a clone, then download the memories of the original, then kill the original.

 

Fascinating topic, I love talking about such things. Thanks for bringing it up!

 

 

Now you need an explanation for the transfer of information between your two bodies. If you are seeing through four eyes then body #1 could communicate to a person what the body #2 is seeing. Some sort of quantum entanglement might be used to explain it but I find that difficult to believe. What would happen if you separated the two bodies by a couple of light years?

 

No transfer of information whatsoever. Since the brain chemistry would be the same, and the memories the same, the same awareness, the same "window", the looking out of eyes sensation, could in theory occur in duel form since all the science behind awareness is present in both brains.

 

What is your theory in this scenario? Would your awareness, the central focus of "you" shift from the old body to the new? Or would it be two distinctly different "lifeforms" are now present? Sort of like making your clone and downloading your memories in an odd way was like giving birth to a new individual? Possible I guess.

 

I am me BECAUSE there is something else NOT me.

 

I respectfully disagree. You are you BECAUSE you are aware. You CAN be aware in a vacuum. Remember the 60's isolation tank experiments? They did not cease to be simply because all the senses were inhibited. You might argue that ALL the senses were not suppressed, but it can be logically argued that the senses were at least "lessened". Did this have the effect of "lessening" self awareness? No, in fact sensory deprivation is actually used as torture since it can actually enhance self awareness.

Is a rock a rock because there is something else that is not a rock? Seems like semantics to me. The difference is that a rock doesn't know it is a rock. You know you are you because your memories tell you so (+ some intellect I guess )

 

Try "lessening" a persons read and write access to their memory and see if it lessens their self-awareness. I bet it would. When I become lucid during a dream I can't really remember who I am, everything seems hazy and I can't think straight. When I am in a light sleep I sometimes have a sense of awareness but it is very dim. Sleep walking is another example.

 

 

I see what you mean about dreaming. Yes it does seem to be dimmer. And I suppose the lower the life-form the dimmer the window. However, this may be due to a lowered complexity of the life form's brain, not necessarily based on it's memory or intellectual reasoning capacity. It seems obvious from our conversation, that regardless if memory or intellectual brilliance is present, we seem to both agree that brain circuit complexity must be HIGH for awareness to take effect.

 

Interesting stuff!