Please Help. I Don't Know What To Do.

[Guest neileroberts]

Hi All.

 

This is my first post and I make it with great trepidation. First I need to give you a potted history.

 

I am 29. At sixteen I was first introduced to xtianity by a friend who told me of a mystical experience he had. Being only sixteen it sounded very enticing. Anyway after about a year of feeling nothing, I left. Many years past (well 5 actually) just after my twenty first birthday I had an epiphany. I told my girlfriend and convinced her to go along to the church I had been to before. We went and both became xtians.

 

We were living together at the time and the church put a great deal of pressure on us to get married. We did this some five months later. Basically we never actually really got on. There are a handful of occasions I can think of where our relationship was functional. The rest were a string of unpleasant bickerings and fighting. There were lots of occasions early on where I would get a slap in the face if I disagreed with something she said. I have been no "saint" but the violence (both psychological and physical) has been unbearable. We never should have married.

 

we both became fundy's and started to progress in xtian society. We had a baby together whom we called Joel (good judeo-christians as we were). I started to have a desire to become ordained as a minister. I started to explore this idea with my minister and actually started to write sermons and prepare for that kind of work.

 

then it happened. As a result of the near constant fighting, I had a breakdown. My mind went into meltdown and I could no longer function. I left my wife and son and moved back with my parents. I still had my faith at the time. My wife eventually convinced me to move back in and told me that things would be different.

 

After I moved back in things seemed ok for a while. I noticed that I was struggling to accept normal xtian teaching like I had before. It was as if the part of my mind that accepted on faith, what the bible said, no longer functioned. I couldn't take a leap of faith anymore. This led me to search for some foundation to rest upon. I started reading books by the christian evidence society. which led me on a path which I am sure many of you have been down. One of exploring the history of xtianity from a secular viewpoint. Without the xtian bias. I soon learned that the foundation that it was all based on was dust and air. there was nothing substantial about it at all.

 

Needless to say my faith at that point disintergrated. As I tried to force myself to believe in Jesus in order to save my marriage I found that I started suffering with Cognitive Dissonance. This caused me to become angry a lot of the time and to sometimes becaome violent with her. Trouble is I am just not a naturally violent person at all. It is completely against my character. I had to eventually come to the conclusion that the only way to stop my mind from warring with itself was to renounce xtianity all together. That leads us now to where I am today.

 

My wife had stated that she cannot live with me if I am not a christian. She has also told me that she will do what she can to stop me from seeing my son. So I am presented with a choice.

 

If I choose to force myself to believe in Jesus (this results in Cognitive Dissonance and anger) I can keep my family. If however I choose to walk away from the church I lose everything.

 

This is not a choice I really want to make. However it is one I am having forced upon me.

[R. S. Martin]

You are in a seriously difficult situation. If you take it to court you might stand a chance to get visitation rights for your son. It could cost a fortune. If you don't take it to court but manage to keep a low profile so you know where your son is it may be possible to keep in touch with your son enough to reconnect when he is old enough to make decisions for himself. Because you have had problems with anger and violence, a court case could be iffy. On the other hand, since she has been violent perhaps you could make a case against her.

 

It is probably best for all involved for you to get out of the situation, given your sensitive mental health condition. I know that for me this would be the case. Others on here may be better qualified to comment on the marriage and child custody issues than I am.

[Mongo]

Neil,

 

Note: A lot of thoughts follow and come from very little information. Ignore all of it if it does not apply. If nothing else, I hope I can get you thinking and clarifying your own thoughts. The following is just my opinion...

 

Wow, you have an interesting story. My sympathies.

 

My first suggestion is that you visit this site to learn about emotional abuse: http://www.drirene.com/

Your wife sounds rather abusive and you sound like a punching bag.

 

There are several men on that site whose wives are abusive. There are people there who are leaving their situation and those who are finding help on how to stay and manage it. Either choice is valid.

 

There are a ton of resources there.

 

I also recommend the book, You Just Don't Understand: Women and Men in Conversation by Deborah Tannen. This is a very readable book that may help you understand your wife better and how to talk to her. I learned a few things about women I'd never heard before and it gave me perspective on my own conversational style.

 

Your wife is giving you one hell of an ultimatum. That really sucks. This can get really complicated.

 

Do you think she means it or is huffing and puffing?

 

What are the odds for resolving this?

If they are poor, one of your first concerns should be whether she is likely to "strike first" (serve you with summons or change door locks or get restraining order) or wait for you to initiate divorce action.

You may want to ensure that you have copies of any important documents stored at work or a sibling/friend's place.

 

So a tough question for you is... do you want to work things out with her?

Do you think she wants to reconcile or is she using your deconversion as a way to facilitate disintegration her marriage while blaming you? (she gets to save face if she blames the heathen)

 

There are a lot of ways to deal with this situation but they really depend on what you and her really and truly want.

 

The only general advice I have is that there are two extremes that should be avoided.

First (I suspect this is your preference), don't be a kiss ass who is trying to make things right by constantly apologizing and responding to every caprecious demand she makes. This is seen as weakness that can never succeed in commanding respect.

Second, becoming verbally abusive yourself and initiating attack. This utterly cuts off communication and when she tells her family about your tirades, they would more easily support and facilitate her leaving. If her stories about how *you* behave are not abusive, they are more likely to encourage her to get counselling and work it out.

 

Here is my advice in dealing with angry abusive people: *match* their tone of voice and body language but do not ever escalate. It is a strange technique but it basically says, "I'm not a wimp and I have legitemate beefs too. When you want to talk reasonably, we might be able to work something out".

 

Be the bigger person and don't get into irrelevant squabbling. If she keeps at it in an effort to get you to fight, point out the behaviour and stick to pointing out the behaviour as "unproductive".

 

When she is in a foul mood, avoid her. I'm curious too whether you are a "home body" and are spending too much time with her. Space can be helpful but not if she starts to wonder what you are doing with that space like chasing other women. Space can simply be going for a walk in the neighbourhood, visiting family or buying the groceries. Even in the house you can find chores. Create them. Break something and then fix it.

 

As to the specific issue of you being heathen and her xtian... I think you need to underscore and demonstrate what respect is. Talk about life and your views of xtianity in terms of how you view the world and not in terms of how xtians are "wrong" or "stupid".

 

It might be a productive for you to explain to her that you are incapable of manufacturing "faith" and that you just don't believe and that you can't make yourself believe. "Honey, I can't make myself believe. I wish I could but just can't." She'll respond with accusations but just reply "I'm sorry but I just don't know how to make myself believe. I don't know how." She will eventually be forced to accept this unless she is completely without empathy(whole other conversation).

 

You might also point out (is it Galations?) that god does not demand that believers divorce non-believers and that the bible makes it clear that the two can stay together.

 

I think you have a lot of thinking to do. You need to decide what you want your life to become.

 

Once you have a direction, you should ensure that what you say and do move you closer to that goal. If you want to split - don't be dopy about it (like give her everything ) - be stragetic.

 

If you want to stay together, then don't do or say things that are destructive.

 

Oh - you will have to figure out whether you are going to fight your son's indoctrination. One strategy is that on visitation days, you can be open and honest with him since there is dick all she can do about that. Another is to allow your wife (she will any way in either situation) teach him about god and not put up a fuss. You could however insist that you not be required to "pretend" that you are not an unbeliever. Your wife will lie about you and tell him that you are under Satan's control. Your angle is that you don't behave like the church weasel who does these things. Essentially, be a better xtian than your wife and your son will see this atheist "witness" which is far more powerful. Your son will eventually ask questions and just answer honestly.

 

Good luck.

 

Mongo

[Grandpa Harley]

dump the bitch and make sure that any lawyer you have paints her as something between Eileen Wuornos and Jack the Ripper to get your son away from her.

[Alice]

I don't think its possible to live a lie and I don't think children are generally grateful for this anyway - sounds like your marraige is over, but that shouldn't put an end to your fatherhood.

 

I know that systems are very different in the states so little of this may apply. I work for the family courts in the UK and here we start from a position that a child has a right to a relationship with both parents unless there are child protection concerns that mean contact is not in a child's interests.

 

The Courts also work on preserving the status quo - so it is important to organise contact visits as soon as possible - waste no time but try not to escalate any antagonism between you and your child's Mother.

 

This applies the world over - except in the most extreme of situations children need parents who can talk civilly to each other and who can reach a place where they co parent as soon as possible (ie where even if they divorce they continue to make joint decisions in their child' best interests - attend important occasions together and share in the child's joy's and heart aches)

 

Tell your wife that you have to be true to your beliefs. Tell her she is free to divorce you as you are choosing to live as an unbeliever. Tell her that something beautiful and wonderful came out of the marriage and that you love your son just as she does. Tell her that you would always want to support her in her role as his Mother and that you want to continue to be his Father. Tell her that you don't want to fight and that you want to resolve the issue of contact between yourselves - the two people who love Joel the most.

 

If she won't come round see a lawyer. Tell the truth in a tone you would be comfortable with your son hearing.

[Grandpa Harley]

BTW... once I'd calmed down, I'd ignore me and go with Mongo and Alice's comments... since there's a lot of good sense there.

[ShackledNoMore]

I have to agree that it would be smart to be thinking about a lawyer.

 

I'm not sure whether you wish to save your marriage, or even if it's possible but this woman is:

 

1) Physically abusive

2) Psychologically abusive

3) Holding her religion card over your head to threaten for you not to see your son (and it sounds like a promise, not an empty threat).

 

I think if this woman either had sole custody or your son or if you met her conditions in order to stay together and let her rule as she saw fit, that she'd terrorize him just as she has you (not to mention she'd stop at nothing to maintain a hideous control while she continues to be abusive to you). What I would NOT do is acquiesce to her ultimatum that you be a xian.

 

Remember, you are a parent too and even if the courts are skewed toward the mother, as his parent, you have every right to custody too. And I'd grab as much custody as I could possibly get from the courts with a good lawyer. It sounds like you can rest assured she'll use every dirty trick at her disposal to get what she wants out of this thing.

 

Well, I guess it's my turn to be all fired up now just like GH was, and inclined to second his original post with gusto at the moment, but whether or not cooler heads than mine win out (and I think mine is usually cooler than it is now) do see a lawyer if that's the direction it goes.

[Islington]

Welcome here neileroberts. I have nothing more to say what Mongo and Alice have not said jet except for: Finde out who is your friend and who not. When I was in a similar (jet not that worse) situation I got much help of them, even more then I suspected to. If not for them I would be deep in an adictiv and abusiv relationship - If I still walked this Earth then. I wish I could do more. All my wishes with you and your son!

[Astreja]

HI, Neil. I second Mongo's recommendation of drirene.com, and its "Catbox" forum in particular.

 

And, before you make any major moves, consult with a few lawyers to see what your rights and obligations are regarding your son.

[mwc]

Not much to add since lots of good things have been said.

 

One thing about Dr. Irene is they have lots and lots of xians in their forums. I made the mistake of posting a message very similar to yours over there (it was in the middle of lots of marriage problems and while I was struggling with religion) and they dumped on me like I was Satan himself. I was told that I had "entitlement issues" because I expected "god" to do this or that and that is why I left the faith and on and on which was all beside the point (I responded to a few of these but I wasn't there to talk religion although anyone from here knows I could have easily done so). A couple of regulars finally stood up and started to engage me on the actual issues, as opposed to the "huge insult" I had paid their religion (and refused to apologize about...tough shit for them but the "insult" was part of my story and not directed at anyone there), but several posts after that happened a mod locked the thread (I deleted it and stopped bothering with them altogether). Seems it was more important to protect their religion than offer up help so be careful in your wording of your post because as the one leaving the faith you may be demonized over there. My suggestion to you would to leave the religion stuff totally out of your posts for as long as possible and even then to a minimum. You got pressured into a marriage. She slaps you. There's a kid. Personal differences (don't see eye to eye on some things that you used to). Kid as a pawn in a possible divorce.

 

On to the next thing. If you are seriously considering a divorce. Lawyer up. I know it costs but don't do it yourself...especially with your son involved. Get references and don't just pick the biggest ad in the phone book. You need someone that will treat your case like it is their only case (even though we both know it isn't). I know GH backed off his original comment but it was basically true. You need someone who will go for blood on your behalf and not someone who is friendly. If you wanted friendly you'd be friends and stay married. You may not want to "hurt" your wife but she's made it perfectly clear that she can, and will, hurt you (and your son). Do you think that she will behave any differently in a divorce? While you're being "nice" and trying to put those "slaps" and "lies" and that stuff she did on a regular basis to you into a proper context (because you're a "man" and can take all that shit) that time you yelled as will the time you hit a wall or door or wanted to know where she went or did whatever you did every blue moon because you're human will become "spousal abuse" and you'll be look like some monster to her innocent little angel routine. Don't fall for it. I did (until I found her "log book" that stated she was intentionally goading me to anger so she could "log" it for evidence of my "anger" issues). The system is setup to believe and help her (for good reason in most cases but that really screws over guys that aren't that way and have women that work that to their advantage).

 

mwc

[Guest neileroberts]

Thanks for all your help and advice. There is a lot of food for thought there. What I wrote was a little long winded, but that was mainly because I needed to get it all off my chest.

 

I have just been trying so hard to make it work. But when we start to have a good conversation (or at least what I believe is a good conversation) she shuts off and starts talking in tongues at me. You know what? I wasn't even trying to deconvert her or anything of the sort. Just talking about how I was feeling. This last year I have been significantly more violent that I ever have been before because of all of this. About four times this year I have just snapped and pushed her across the room away from me. The last time she fell and hurt her knees. She subsequently took pictures and is using them as a bargaining chip too. My problem is when she attacked me with a stool some months ago for saying that I wasn't sure that the apostles wrote the gospels, I did not take pictures. I kind of thought "keep no record of wrong" What an idiot. While I was trying to play nice she was keeping records of stuff. I mentioned all of this to my boss recently and his comment was "there must be something seriously wrong, you are the most placid person I know". I am not like this. I just can't do anything about it.

 

I tried to logicalise it yesterday and this was my conclusion: -

 

She has drawn her line in the sand. She has said it is unmovable. Lets take that as certain.

Can I move to her side of the line? It would require that I believe in a historical Jesus and worship him. Can I do that? No I just cannot force my mind to accept that at all. I have tried. I cannot reprogram myself to believe in something I know is patently untrue.

Can I edge her more towards my side of the line? she has said no.

Am I prolonging the inevitable? Yes I think I am.

 

Just the other day she made the suggestion that I was demonised. When I suggested that I actually didn't really think I was, she went off into another torrent. She seems to then say that I start it and the trouble is I start to believe her. I am just not sure anymore what is real and what isnt.

 

One good thing in all this, my family doesn't like her and want me to leave. They said they will support me so that is all good news. I don't want to be the one who ended it. Does that make sense? If I am the one who leaves I become the "baddy".

 

Anyway. thanks for all your help. I look forward to many interesting conversations with you all.

 

Neil

[mwc]

I have just been trying so hard to make it work. But when we start to have a good conversation (or at least what I believe is a good conversation) she shuts off and starts talking in tongues at me. You know what? I wasn't even trying to deconvert her or anything of the sort. Just talking about how I was feeling.

Stop this. It won't accomplish anything. I know you think it might but it won't. I've been where you are in this regard so I know my words may not get through to you but I'm telling you anyway.

 

This last year I have been significantly more violent that I ever have been before because of all of this. About four times this year I have just snapped and pushed her across the room away from me. The last time she fell and hurt her knees. She subsequently took pictures and is using them as a bargaining chip too. My problem is when she attacked me with a stool some months ago for saying that I wasn't sure that the apostles wrote the gospels, I did not take pictures. I kind of thought "keep no record of wrong" What an idiot. While I was trying to play nice she was keeping records of stuff. I mentioned all of this to my boss recently and his comment was "there must be something seriously wrong, you are the most placid person I know". I am not like this. I just can't do anything about it.

Okay. Not cool. I totally understand, but still, not cool. I think you know this though so I won't go on about it. It does hurt you but this is why a lawyer is needed. You might consider getting a voice recorder and showing that when you are calm and reasonable during a conversation your wife has a tendency to not be that way. Anyhow, I had about a year where I felt rage like I never had before because of all the things going on in my life. It was the total polar opposite of how I was normally. It does pass.

 

She has drawn her line in the sand. She has said it is unmovable. Lets take that as certain.

Can I move to her side of the line? It would require that I believe in a historical Jesus and worship him. Can I do that? No I just cannot force my mind to accept that at all. I have tried. I cannot reprogram myself to believe in something I know is patently untrue.

Can I edge her more towards my side of the line? she has said no.

Am I prolonging the inevitable? Yes I think I am.

You can't change her. Can she change you? Will she change for you? Will you change for her? Do these questions even matter? The marriage was bad from the start from what I could tell from your OP so it seems that religion is taking on more importance than it needs to here.

 

Just the other day she made the suggestion that I was demonised. When I suggested that I actually didn't really think I was, she went off into another torrent. She seems to then say that I start it and the trouble is I start to believe her. I am just not sure anymore what is real and what isnt.

Do you believe in demons? If not, then you can't be possessed by them. My wife accused me of becoming possessed by a demon and then having sex with her so she'd miscarry. That made me feel special. Not only was I evil but I was responsible for killing my only kid. Yay! She tries to downplay all that now of course. You don't need these head games.

 

One good thing in all this, my family doesn't like her and want me to leave. They said they will support me so that is all good news. I don't want to be the one who ended it. Does that make sense? If I am the one who leaves I become the "baddy".

Yeah, I was caught up in all that crap. End it. Go. You "win" by "losing." Think back to when you were a kid. Did you ever get stuck playing a game with a cheater? So you just intentionally lost the game so you could walk away and get on with your life? The other kid would gloat about how they won but you knew better. You threw the game so you could get the hell outta there and away from them. It's time to throw the game. Who's she going to gloat to? Who will you be the "baddy" to? The church and some people in it? Maybe a few "friends? So what. Fuck them. You have YOU to worry about. I might say different if you were totally dependent on this woman for most everything but it seems you're not. So get a lawyer and move on.

 

mwc

[Guest neileroberts]

Thanks. your comments are really helpful. I know that what I am hearing is true. I need to get out asap.

 

 

"You might consider getting a voice recorder and showing that when you are calm and reasonable during a conversation your wife has a tendency to not be that way"

 

tried that. She didn't want me to record our conversations. She said it wouldn't help.

 

Another interesting point I would like to add. I took her to Relate (the marriage people) about four months ago. I thought it went really well. When we left she turned and said "well that was a waste of time wasn't it" Basically I hadn't agreed with her position.

[RIPw4]

Get a lawyer..

Pictures are not worth anything unless she can prove that the injuries were caused from you (i.e. police report)

 

I think you would have a strong case against her in a custody hearing. My advice would be to get a good lawyer (civil liberties type person) and divorce her. If it comes down to it, do the custody battle thing but I really dont think it will happen. You should initiate the divorce..

Good luck!

[mwc]

"You might consider getting a voice recorder and showing that when you are calm and reasonable during a conversation your wife has a tendency to not be that way"

 

tried that. She didn't want me to record our conversations. She said it wouldn't help.

She said? You're past that. This isn't about mending the relationship. Do NOT intentionally start an argument but I'm sure you can tell when trouble is brewing and there's no escape (usually you can avoid it but not always). If that's the case then keep the recorder in a pocket or something and switch it on. Don't ask permission. Fuck that. Then calmly try to diffuse the situation. If she cannot be reasoned with it will be recorded. This is for YOUR protection. Don't edit or screw around with the recording even if you think you come off bad in it. Screwing around with "evidence" is so much worse. Let someone else be the judge (like a judge). Don't let her know you're doing this. I know it sounds shitty but sometimes you got to do shitty things if the person you're dealing with basically blackmails you (threatening to keep your son from you is blackmail). Your attorney will decide what, if anything, to ultimately do with the recordings (you should not use them as blackmail yourself...that's a bad move...you should do your best to play it all by the book...no tit for tat). This is all basically about covering your ass.

 

Another interesting point I would like to add. I took her to Relate (the marriage people) about four months ago. I thought it went really well. When we left she turned and said "well that was a waste of time wasn't it" Basically I hadn't agreed with her position.

My wife and I went to counseling. She lied during the sessions. I caught her in a lie in front of the counselor and nothing came of it. He was caught up in my "anger" (which I told him was over the lies and disrespect...of course I told the truth and looked like a raving lunatic). She admitted in the car ride on the way home that she was lying, that she knew it was a lie but she just couldn't help herself from telling lies (I wish I had a recording of that because, as usual, she revealed this in private so it's "he said, she said"...and who's going to believe it when the "angry man" asserts his wife is a pathological liar without evidence? No one). I stopped going after that since I knew I was fucked.

 

Counseling only has a chance at working if everyone involved wants it to work. You could always go to counseling on your own, just for your own peace of mind, but couples counseling will likely just be endless frustration for you (it would be like picking up a child throwing a tantrum by one arm and they pull that going limp thing on you...it becomes extremely difficult to do anything with them without wasting all your energy and since she's an adult you can't just order her around like you could the child so your alternative is to leave her on the floor where she is).

 

mwc

[Guest neileroberts]

I do want to say thankyou to everyone who has responded. I already feel more positive about what needs to be done and that it is not all my imagination. You know, you can start to believe that this behavior is normal. Trouble is, it isn't.

[Mongo]

I do want to say thankyou to everyone who has responded. I already feel more positive about what needs to be done and that it is not all my imagination. You know, you can start to believe that this behavior is normal. Trouble is, it isn't.

 

One of my facinations is how people, even smart people, get fooled and fool themselves. So, when in doubt, remind yourself that verbal and emotional abuse is not acceptable. You deserve better.

 

Currently as you make the transition from xtian to athiest, you will rethink many things you never before questioned. As you transition from a cosy church life and a predictable set of friends you will move towards many things that are less definable and less certain. It can be unnerving and many people feel a sense of grief and mourning as they transition.

 

For you to have to deal with your family situation and deconversion too can be tough.

 

You do however have an advantage in that you no longer have the naivety of religion to cloud your judgement and that allows you to focus on what is right for your son and for yourself.

 

In as much as your point of view may have changed considerably in the last day, week or month, it will be much more so in a year from now. You will develop a "new" normal.

 

I think you will grow and learn from all this. Get closer to your family, they seem to have some insight and support you. I also recommend connecting with a humanist group or a group where you are more likely to meet agnostics. If I were single, I'd get involved with my local (leftish) political group because that interests me and most of the religious nuts are on the right or too busy with church.

 

Contact with people who are not religious is very very good.

 

Mongo

[Islington]

If you can't do the things like recording your conversation, find a good friend and let him do it. Choose someone who will do things because he think they are necessary. And get a lawyer. Make sure your friend and your lawyer work together. This way they will walk over borders you would stop at.

My friends did that for me without me telling them to do so, but if they had not, I still would be lost.

 

I do want to say thank you to everyone who has responded. I already feel more positive about what needs to be done and that it is not all my imagination. You know, you can start to believe that this behavior is normal. Trouble is, it isn't.

 

You are absolutely right. I thought that to until I got out. This isn't normal.

And I think that you should get yourself out, if you really want to help your son. I thought that I could help my exfriend while being in this relationship but I could not.

On the other hand I know what it means to loose someone to a fundamental sect of a church. Maybe I should have staid in contact with my cousin when his Parents went to become jehovas witnesses, maybe I could have changed that but I was too young then. When we met last (a couple of years had past) he was that deep in that I could not - and did not wanted to reach him. He was too far in to that stuff.

I don't know how you can keep up a close contact and relationship to your son but do all you can (I think he is younger than my cousin than) ...

(sorry, I sit her and want to rage or pack and travel to you to help. I want to do more than just write but I can't and it makes me mad)

... my best friend is a Mother of two children who went through a lot of trouble to get divorced and now tries to get at least her daughter back. It's hard stuff and you need a long breath. But I wish you all the luck and friends you need to get you and your son out of there.

(sorry again. I could start crying right now)

Again: we are here for you! Don't give up!