Guest JP1283 Posted June 25, 2005 Share Posted June 25, 2005 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. According to John, the only way someone will be interested in Jesus Christ is if God draws them. Without God's drawing, no one can have any interest in the things of the Bible and God, correct? Why is it then that there are such people as apostates? How could they have lived their lives as Christians if God hadn't drawn them to be interested in him? Many have said that we weren't True Christians and that we diluded ourselves into thinking that we were. How can that be so if the only way we would want to become Christian is if God draws us to do it? How could we have devoted years of our lives to ministry without God drawing us? The truth is, God didn't draw us. People did. Any thoughts? JP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotter Posted June 25, 2005 Share Posted June 25, 2005 JP, According to John Calvin, Christians are pre-destined to become Christians, yes, Christians are drawn by God to become Christians. At the same time, it is the acts of free will to leave Christianity. Other than John Calvin’s, Christians may quote the Bible to answer your question: 1) Luke chapter 8: 4-21: The Parable of the Seed, seeds that fell on the rocky soil 2) “Many get saved, but afterwards fall away” (Lk. 8:13; Jn. 6:66; 1 Tim. 1:19) I remember asking a Christian one similar question, “Are Christian marriages arranged by God?” “Yes.” “Then why do people get divorce, like for Christian couples?” “It is human freewill.” . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted June 25, 2005 Share Posted June 25, 2005 In Romans, chapter 9, it says "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy." In speaking of Pharoah, god says "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth" "So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills." And, "What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory" You see? It's simple. If you left, it proves you were never drawn, and if you were never drawn it means you were just something God created for destruction so that God could show his power. simple. Great is the Lord. Hallelujah. May his name be praised forevermore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted June 26, 2005 Share Posted June 26, 2005 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. Many have said that we weren't True Christians and that we diluded ourselves into thinking that we were. How can that be so if the only way we would want to become Christian is if God draws us to do it? How could we have devoted years of our lives to ministry without God drawing us? The truth is, God didn't draw us. People did. Any thoughts? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> JP, how can anyone else determine your place, in your spirituality? Perhaps YOU saw through their deception and realized there was something there you just couldn't see how a loving God could condone it. Maybe you're now listening to the calling of Love, Compassion, Mercy... more now than you use to be when you were with them? May I suggest a consideration, be careful of throwing the bably out with the bathwater. I believe that the deeper meaning of text referring to Jesus' call, is that He is in ALL of us... (I know, I know, most of you don't want him in you; but bear with me for sake of explanation..) a part of our conscience, bringing us to a higher place in regards to integrity and compassion. If you should look in the Strong Concordance of KJV, you will see that the word conscience did not exist before Jesus' teachings in the NT.... and Jesus' claim of bringing a clearing of our coperception between the selfish man nature and a higher actualized part within each of us... drawing us to that higher actualized self, hence God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted June 26, 2005 Share Posted June 26, 2005 Hi Amanda. No, I'm not gonna chomp ya. Just wanted to apologize for knockin ya in the head before. I think you're kinda kooky, but if all christians were like you, the world would be a much better place. m. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shy1680 Posted June 26, 2005 Share Posted June 26, 2005 I believe that the deeper meaning of text referring to Jesus' call, is that He is in ALL of us... (I know, I know, most of you don't want him in you; but bear with me for sake of explanation..) a part of our conscience, bringing us to a higher place in regards to integrity and compassion. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I used to believe this too, until I started to look around me and I began to wonder, how the hell could Jesus be in all these evil cruel people? Since Jesus is supposed to be God or even if you believe he was God's son with super powers, why isnt his spirit or powers able to take control over man's evil ways? I always think back to the story of the Pharoah when God hardened his heart and wonder, why would God do that to him but not soften the hearts of people about to do cruel things? Since you believe Jesus is in the hearts of everyone, that means he is in the heart of the person who is murdering, raping, or beating someone right now. WAY TO GO JESUS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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