Guest Slayer-2004 Posted June 26, 2005 Share Posted June 26, 2005 I wasnt going to post this at first , but since I got carried away and added a completely new section to each one for the final I figured I might as well . 1 . Quoting the bible when trying to prove a fact to a non believer Ex 1 - Non believer: *evolutionary rant* apologist:Your wrong . The bible never said we evolved from apes , therefore we didn't . Ex 2 - Non believer: Give me one good logical reason why homosexuals cant be allowed to marry . Apologist: because God says homosexuality is a sin . Reason why this doesnt work : As a christian its easy to make the mistake of talking to non believers as you would other christians . Unfortunately it doesnt work . Telling a non believer that something is false because the bible says so is the same as telling them its false because you dont believe its true . It comes accross to us as an opinion rather then a fact . "Biblical truths" are meaningless to people who dont believe in the bible to begin with . Note that using the bible to claim something is immoral doesnt work for the same reasons . How to prevent yourself from making this mistake : Re-read the reason why this doesnt work over and over again until you can recite it from memory and write an essay on it . While the rest of these are in no particular order I place this at number 1 for a reason . Its a very common mistake that often causes the subject to be completely changed into something entirely different . Use reason when talking to skeptics , not faith . They dont care about faith , If they did they wouldnt be skeptics . Asking them to take something on faith is futile . 2. Replying with "love bombing" Rather then giving thought to the topic at hand Ex - Non believer: why does *verse 1* contradict *verse 2* Apologist: It doesnt matter because Jesus loves you . once you understand that all problems will go away Reason this doesnt work : To the non believer , this sort of response comes across as annoying . Its also seen as a dodge and may possibly convince them that christians dont have an answer and thus the verses really do contradict each other . Bad idea . How to prevent yourself from making this mistake : Ask yourself honestly , are you really answering their question or are you just preaching for the sake of preaching ? If its the latter , then you may want to rethink what your about to say . 3.Threats of hellfire / Using pascals wager / preaching doomsday Ex 1 - Non believer : Give me one good reason to believe ! Apologist : Well since you dont believe in an afterlife you have nothing to lose by converting to christianity . Only Jesus can save you from satan . Ex 2 - Apologist : Repent infidels ! The end is near ! The tribulation is upon us ! Non believer : ...Uhh......ya....sure . Reason why this doesnt work : To the average passerby on the street this might work , but most of the people who come to christian apologetics forums as non christians are experienced skeptics and many of us have college degree's and/or lots of experience in philosophy , biology , theology ect . In other words non believers who come here have heard this kind of stuff literally thousands of times and can easily get around it . Some skeptics will even simply stop reading your post once they realize that its a form of pascals wager and just move on . It a waste of time to even try . How to prevent yourself from making this mistake : Constantly remind yourself that you are talking to skeptics and that these are not the same kind of non believers that would come into your church to learn about what christianity is . They already know . 4. The use of presuppositionalism and/or TAG ( Transcendental argument for god ) As the main supporting pillar in almost all your posts Ex - non believer : *Long rational argument dealing with deep theological issues* Apologist : Ha ! You dont even believe in god ! How can you account for the logic you just used to try and debunk his existence ? Only by presupposing christianity is true can you hope to make sense . Reason why this doesnt work : First of all , let me just point something out . Almost all skeptics who have dealt with TAG and pressupositionalism consider apologists like the one in the example to be both annoying and completely insane . This is not an insult , its just how most non believers view this . A lot of us consider pressupositionalism to be an attempt to dodge having to use evidence to back up your claims and while we often will carry on debate if you continue to use this apologetic method non believers will often start to ignore you . Ask yourselves honestly , have you ever seen a single testimony where the recent convert said "TAG and pressupositionalism opened my eyes ! Jesus is lord !" ? I know I most certainly have not , and I have read hundreds of testimonies . There is a reason for why such a thing never happens . How to prevent yourself from making this mistake : Just dont get into TAG and pressupositional apologetics in the first place . Seriously , it wont do you any good . All that comes of it is it causes you to constantly question your existance and everyone elses existence until you can no longer hold even a simple conversation without starting to rant about superfluous philosophical concepts . Only look into it until you understand it , but realize and accept the fact that you wont convince anyone with it . 5. Attempt to "mind read" a non believer and claim her/his motives are based on evil and rebellion . Ex - Non believer : I would probably never become a christian since I find it logically impossible Apologist : No , you are a child of god who has gone astray . The only reason people dont believe is because of a adolescent like rebellion against god and because they wish to sin . Your lying . Reason this doesnt work : This is similar to mistake #1 . Your trying to use points only supported in the bible to disprove something to a person who doesnt even believe the bible is anything more then another myth . The sooner you start taking non christians seriously the sooner they will start taking you seriously . Furthermore I feel I should add that the "Everyone secretly knows christianity is the truth" is a silly and somewhat ignorant position to hold . Such a claim is usually made by people who come from mostly christian dominated countries and have absolutely no understanding whatsoever of cultures other then their own . I suggest you take a trip to Scotland, where christianity is generally considered to be just as mythological as belief in Norse gods . See for yourself just how silly it is to take the position that everyone secretly believes the same thing you do . Better yet take a trip to Japan , where most people know about as much about christianity as people in america know about shinto . Non believers ussually dont even give this position a second thought , because it really is that laughable . Non christians do not secretly believe Jesus is lord any more then you secretly believe that the 7 gods of Koras shall rise from their graves one night and terrorize the world . Get over it . How to prevent yourself from making this mistake : Really all you need to do is accept that this sort of argument is seen as immature . You accomplish nothing by trying to use it , and nobody else gets anything out of listening to it . Remember: Just because you searched for the truth and came to christianity doesnt mean everyone who searches for the truth and ends up somewhere else isnt trying . 6. the "If I can disprove evolution then creationism becomes true !" attitude . Ex - apologist : *Attempts to debunk evolution* therefore , creationism is true and Jesus lives ! non believer : ....... *sigh~ ...... Reason this doesnt work : Sorry , but if even if you did somehow debunk evolution creationism wouldnt suddenly become the scientifically accepted standard any more then the theory that we all warped into reality through a giant doom banana . A scientific theory must follow guidelines . If you wish to prove creationism , then provide proof of creationism ... not proof against other theories . How to prevent yourself from making this mistake : Stay on topic . This is a fairly easy rule to remember . As tempting as it may be to try and bring the subject to evolution when you are asked for proof of creationism , dont do it . Your not proving anything by doing that . 7. Attempt to enter and debunk an argument about something science related that you clearly know nothing about . Ex - non believer : Early plants were very basic in nature , and the reason behind the difference in the existence and structure of cell walls in Plants and animals is ...*rant* .... why plants evolved with the ability to perform photosynthesis ... *rant rant* Apologist : Thats absurd ! Plants have skin , god gave it to them . Who cares about footosenthisis when we know that ? How can a skeptic such as yourself claim belief in plants magically gaining energy but not in god ? Reason why this doesnt work : Personally I think this one should be obvious . I exaggerated a bit in the example , but the basic point remains the same . If you wish to debunk something then first you should honestly ask yourself "Do I really understand what this is about ?" . When a christian ( or anyone for that matter ) tries to debunk a scientific theory without any understanding of what the scientific theory is about it becomes very obvious very fast . Total waste of time . This problem happens a lot in evolutionary debates . Please for the sake of us all educate yourself on what evolution is about BEFORE you try and point out holes in it . You will save a lot of time by doing that . How to prevent yourself from making this mistake : The key here is humility . Understand that you do not have all the knowledge required to participate in every single conversation / debate . The minute you realize that you are out of your league in terms of education and knowledge in the subject that is being discussed , then kindly back out and let the people who are not do the talking . Better yet , it may be a good idea to go out and educate yourself on what they are talking about and come back . That way you might even get something positive out of the experience as opposed to just embarrassing yourself . 8. Judge a non christian religion on christian concepts Ex - Non believer : I am a buddhist. Why should I choose christianity over this ? Apologist : Because Buddha never died for your sins . Reason why this doesnt work : Lets use pantheism as an example . If I were to judge christianity on pantheist concepts ( such as god=the universe ) I would conclude that christianity is about worshiping yourself and asking yourself for forgiveness . From this I would wrongly conclude that christianity is an arrogant religion . Ask yourself , would you as a christian care if I started a topic and did that ? Probably not . In buddhism buddha didnt die for everyones sins because according to buddhism nobody had to . Telling a buddhist that buddhism is false because Buddhism didnt follow a specific christian trait is the same as saying its false because you believe that its false . Again , see mistake #1 . How to prevent yourself from making this mistake : This one is fairly easy . Just take a moment to think before you start ranting about other religions . Ask yourself questions . Is the definition of God in this religion the same as mine or different ? Am I really finding this to not make sense because it doesn't or am I trying to apply it to something christian when such a thing cant be done ? 9. The use of PRATTS ( Points refuted a thousand times ) Ex - Apologist : Since science cannot currently account for the beginning of life , God did it ! Non believer : Oh boy ... God of the gaps ... AGAIN ... Reason why this doesnt work : PRATTS are named for what they really are . Points refuted a thousand times . Most of these are common fallacious arguments used by christians/apologists that have been debunked many many times . If you have something to say , please do a google search on "Points refuted a thousand times" and check to see if you are using a PRATT . If you are , then reply with a rebuttal to the argument against the PRATT . Apologists who use PRATTS constantly without checking to see if what they are saying has been said billions of times before and logically trashed an equal number of times get old really fast and are eventually ignored . Be warned : whenever you use a PRATT you are basically admitting to skeptics that you are either very new to apologetics or you just dont care what they have to say in return . If you want non believers to take your arguments seriously , dont use PRATTS . PRATTS are bad mmmmkay ? A few classic PRATTS : "Science is a religion too !" , "Evolution violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics !" , "There isnt enough dust on the moon for the earth to be that old !" , "there were no eyewitnesses for evolution !" ect. How to prevent yourself from making this mistake : Probably the best thing to do is do a search on PRATTS . You will find that many sites offer extensive and easy to read lists along side rebuttals and proof of why the PRATT is bogus . Also check to see if your argument is a PRATT every time just to make sure . Its not uncommon to think up something on your own that has already been given the PRATT title . 10. Commit an obvious logical fallacy . Ex - Apologist : How can you not believe in the bible ? Its the most widely practiced religion in the world Non believer : *bangs head on keyboard* iasnfsklpdfknc ... Appeal to belief ... Reason why this doesnt work : While logical fallacies are common and can be found on both sides every now and then , it is when you use one obviously and with total disregard to the rules of logic that causes non believers to step back and feel like they would be wasting their time even trying to carry on a conversation . While it is forgiveable when someone commits a fallacy in a normal and otherwise well spoken argument ( But take note this forgiveness does not suddenly make the argument valid ) It is rarely forgiven when one blatantly makes a rather short argument that is completely fallacious . How to prevent yourself from making this mistake : Simple , google "logical fallacies" and search through to gain a basic understanding , or better yet take a college class in logic and reasoning . Make sure you think before you create an argument . Here are a few common fallacies to get you started : Red herring : Changing the subject when you cant answer a question Example : Bah ! who cares ! You atheists are all a bunch of gay lovers anyways ! ( which changes the subject to homosexuality ) Circular argument : A is true because B is true , and we know B is true because A is true . Example : The bible is true because God wrote it . God exists because the bible says so . Ad hominum : name calling to avoid a question Example : Atheists are evil and only wish to rebel against god . Their logic is a trick of the devil . Philosophy is evil ! Switching the burden of proof : A fallacy that is committed when the side supporting the positive says that if the opposing side cannot prove the negative then the positive becomes true . Example : You cannot prove that God does not exist, therefore He does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IvyFairy Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 Nice & Detailed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunar Shadow Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 I stopped by the Church my wife and I HAVE TO attend today. I gave the college leader this list of the TOP 10 apologetic mistakes and I also gave him a list of common Fallacies, because if they are going to teach Christianity - then they should at least teach it honestly and with intellectual integrity. The immediate response was well it doesn't matter for who wins a debate between a Christian and an Atheist -- because we know that the Christian is RIGHT (regardless) because Jesus is Lord and gives TRUTH IvyFairy and I really had to bite our tongues and contain ourselves. It's so sad to see how much people are blinded by their faith. I just wanted to Scream.... "YOU'RE AN FUCKING IDIOT!!!" and tear him a new ass-hole. This is my life, can you believe how much Bull-Shit I have to put up with on a day to day basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spamandham Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 well it doesn't matter for who wins a debate between a Christian and an Atheist -- because we know that the Christian is RIGHT (regardless) because Jesus is Lord and gives TRUTH I just tell them, "well in my world view, I am always right, and I say you are wrong, I thus am correct in my assessment of your falseness." Whatever they do, don't back off the claim that you are always right even if they trap you with a contradiction. Just keep mindlessly repeating it. "Deny, deny, deny" to quote from "Guide for the Married Man". Enjoy as they squirm in frustration until they blurt out profanities and walk off. Then laugh at them as they are walking off for failing to recognize the TRUTH. It helps if you add that the reason they reject your world view is because they hate democracy and freedom. If reason doesn't work, just piss them off the same way they do to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunar Shadow Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 I stopped by the Church my wife and I HAVE TO attend today. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Jester, without imposing, I'm curious as to why you HAVE TO attend. I'm assuming a lot of things here... yet, just a SUGGESTION.... Hopefully your wife would understand that staying away is more beneficial for you at this time, and you would hope that she would bear with you on this matter for the sake of your happiness. Let her go without you. It is impressive that you want her to be happy, yet why should it be at the expense of yours? (Even though, I'm sure she wants what SHE feels is best for you... to go to church.) It seems at the core, you two have a great love... and that is a good thing! Why get angry at the close minded guy? Then you let his negative energy effect you. It is clearly his problem, not yours... so why make it yours? Give it back to him, mentally, and be glad it is his problem and not yours. I read those points and found them of great benefit, and thought that was a great deed on your part to bridge a gap of communication between the believers and nonbelievers. I suppose that some people just don't recognize a good thing when they got it.... that has happened to me... and once it has passed my grip and I got the revelation of what I really lost... it sucks! I wish you the best in your efforts to be happy my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Slayer-2004 Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 here is how christian forums took it : http://www.christianforums.com/t1795984-to...c-mistakes.html Copy and paste inyo browser so the mods stay clueless . Im technically banned and only use that account to post a few things . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spamandham Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 I stopped by the Church my wife and I HAVE TO attend today. As Amanda asked, I'd be curious as well. Are you a paid professional in the church by chance? I am "unequally yoked". My wife is burdoned by the mind control of religion and I'm not (anymore). This caused a lot of problems with things like church attendance early on, but she finally realized that it wasn't doing anything for her to see me sitting there in service, when she knew that I didn't believe anything I was hearing. She finally let go of her desire to have me attend. Now the problem is the kids. Although I've told her endless times I'm not going to stop her from teaching the kids religion, that isn't enough. She wants me to be the "spiritual leader"! WTF!? How can I possibly be a leader for something that I not only don't believe in, but would prefer just went away? I hope we'll eventually get past that one too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunar Shadow Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 Jester, without imposing, I'm curious as to why you HAVE TO attend. I'm assuming a lot of things here... yet, just a SUGGESTION.... Hopefully your wife would understand that staying away is more beneficial for you at this time, and you would hope that she would bear with you on this matter for the sake of your happiness. Let her go without you. It is impressive that you want her to be happy, yet why should it be at the expense of yours? (Even though, I'm sure she wants what SHE feels is best for you... to go to church.) It seems at the core, you two have a great love... and that is a good thing! I wish you the best in your efforts to be happy my friend. As I have explained before.... my wife and I are both forced to go to church due to our living situation (living with hardcore Xian parents right now who require church) don't have much choice right now because of finances so you see my problem. Also to clear a few things up my wife is not a church go-er herself she has stated a few times here on the board that she is just not quite ready to proclaim herself aloud as an atheist. However there is a silver lining here... we have gotten it so only we are going to church and not our 3.5 year-old daughter, so at least she is not being indoctrinated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 Now the problem is the kids. Although I've told her endless times I'm not going to stop her from teaching the kids religion, that isn't enough. She wants me to be the "spiritual leader"! WTF!? How can I possibly be a leader for something that I not only don't believe in, but would prefer just went away? I hope we'll eventually get past that one too. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Spamandham, you sound like a great guy! May I SUGGEST something... for what its worth... Perhaps she needs to LET you be the 'spiritual' leader. If you represent integrity and compassion, which you seem to be highly evolved here, then what better 'spirit' is there than that? Yes, I am a Christian... give me a break... we know them by their fruits, their actions, and I think you are representative of a wonderful 'spiritual' leader! What is wrong with different resources that get you both to the same destination, a loving and functional relationship? I'm sure your wife loves you and wants what she thinks is best for you both. Yet, I think there are people who claim to be Christian that do much worse than you! Perhaps your wife might begin to notice this as time goes by and realize what a true gem she has. Just my opinion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IvyFairy Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 As I have explained before.... my wife and I are both forced to go to church due to our living situation (living with hardcore Xian parents right now who require church) don't have much choice right now because of finances so you see my problem.Also to clear a few things up my wife is not a church go-er herself she has stated a few times here on the board that she is just not quite ready to proclaim herself aloud as an atheist. However there is a silver lining here... we have gotten it so only we are going to church and not our 3.5 year-old daughter, so at least she is not being indoctrinated. Yeah, Jester’s dad is a Dr. in Theology and an ordained Minister in CA. Jester just started a job as a Carpenter when he got into a car accident and I'm now on maternity leave. When you look at it, how could we pay $1250.00 for rent each month if both are unable to work. So, we are temporarily living with Jester's parents. The living agreement is that we pay a very small price for rent and we have to attend church each week. Since I dislike Sunday Morning Services we attend a College group.... just Jester and I (not our daughter). We view it as a class. Why Not to be a Christian 101. HeHeHe... The college group leader makes ALOT of mistakes each week...... so Jester likes to point them out (since the other people who attend just nod their heads and agree with everything he says... even if incorrect.). Other things we have to do here as long as we are staying in their garage are: Take parenting classes and go to marriage concealing. Which I think is BS, but seeing we have a roof over our heads for the time being all I can do is bite my tongue. So yeah. I'm NOT A CHRISTIAN and Never have been. I was raised in a Christian environment, but I've never said I was or said Jesus is my savior blah blah stuff. Just to clarify that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Slayer-2004 Posted July 1, 2005 Share Posted July 1, 2005 Thats probobly what I would do in that situation . Use the time to examine the fundamentalis-stupidus in all their glory . The arguments those nubcakes shit out when they dont have the infinite time between responses that the internet gives them are really sad . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spamandham Posted July 1, 2005 Share Posted July 1, 2005 Spamandham, you sound like a great guy! May I SUGGEST something... for what its worth... Perhaps she needs to LET you be the 'spiritual' leader. Of course I'd be happy with that, but 'spiritual leader' is realy a euphamism for 'head religious indoctrinator'. Thanks for the kind words by the way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spamandham Posted July 1, 2005 Share Posted July 1, 2005 ...$1250.00 for rent each month... The living agreement is that we pay a very small price for rent and we have to attend church each week. Roughly 8 hours of work a month for ~$1200 worth of savings seems like a heck of a deal really. That's the equivalent of $150/hour after tax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunar Shadow Posted July 1, 2005 Share Posted July 1, 2005 Roughly 8 hours of work a month for ~$1200 worth of savings seems like a heck of a deal really. That's the equivalent of $150/hour after tax. Yeah but I dunno if it is really worth it due to the fact that my father is also a professor of theology and I never hear the end of it (but it has been fun going toe to toe with him pointing out the fallacies he commits in our conversations). But still over all it is not worth the headache. I honestly much rather be homeless. However I don't have that luxury due to the fact that Ivy is due to have our 2nd child in a matter of 6 days now.... So in this case it is a matter of bite the bullet and try not to get killed in the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IvyFairy Posted July 1, 2005 Share Posted July 1, 2005 At least if we paid 1250.00 a month for rent, we would have a 2 bed 1 bath apartment. All to ourselves. Currently we have 3/4 of a garage. But then again... we don't have the money for the rent - so we have to do with what we can get. As much as I hate it hear, since people walk into the garage whenever they feel, etc. etc. etc... At least we have some kind of roof over our heads and our rent is less than 400.00 a month Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spamandham Posted July 1, 2005 Share Posted July 1, 2005 Well, I was just trying to help you guys feel better about it, but I imagine it does suck pretty bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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