Christianity Divides My Family

[Guest lifelong_agnostic]

Hello all!

 

I am new here and discovered you while doing some research on "intellectual christians," as oxymoronic as that may sound. I'll get to that later.

 

Here is my story... I am an agnostic. I've always been agnostic, as is my immediate family. We never believed the concept of god made any sense whatsoever. I was raised Unitarian, married by a Unitarian minister, etc. etc.

 

However, my mother's 2 closest siblings are evangelicals, and one is very much a fundy. They were born-again in their 20s (due to recovery from a troubled childhood.. which is very sad). One is a professor at Bob Jones University. All of their kids are evangelists too (they are my ONLY cousins). Unfortunately, this has always divided our family and kept us from becoming close, despite our bond of blood and despite the FUN we have together when we are not talking religion.

 

It saddens me to the core, as I have one cousin who is exactly my age. I know we would be GREAT friends if it were not for the major difference in life philosphy (agnosticism vs. hardcore christian). Whenever we are together we have such a great time.

 

She and I have had some very interesting conversations about our differences, and it was mostly curiosity from both sides. She wonders how I know right from wrong and how I manage to get along from day to day with out god (she was born into this, so she knows no other way). I wonder why she needs a god, etc. etc. Like I said, pleasant curiosity... no arguments. I don't bother arguing with her. She also seems to respect our differences and does not try to push me, although I assume she believes I am going to hell.

 

She has always been very active in her church and volunteering in the community via X'tian outreach organizations and inner city outreach programs, etc. etc. She actually LIVES her religion and tries to make the world a better place. I do respect this, as I feel so many X'tians merely talk the talk without walking the walk.

 

Anyway, I am here today because I would love to hear those of you who lived this Christian life. What was your view of relatives/friends who did not believe? Did you feel sorry for them? (I often get looks of sympathy from my X'tian Aunt... she looks at me as if to say, "Poor girl... she is going to Hell and doesn't even know it.") Is this really what my relatives think of me? Is it ever going to be possible for me to have a relationship with my cousin who I love dearly?

 

I ask this today because I just returned from my cousin's wedding. I'm pretty sure I was the only non-christian at this very large wedding. I actually had a good time and no one tried to convert me (whew!) I escaped unscathed. However, the sadness came back to me yet again this weekend when I realized that I am missing out on the joy of being friends with a wonderful woman... merely because we have such 180-degree differences in how we look at our worlds.

 

Now, here is another question. The man my cousin married is a born-again political science and sociology professor. Apparently, he manages to interweave Chrisianity and political science in his lectures. I am not sure how... but I thought it so interesting that such an intellectual (PhD student) -- trained to look at things with a critical eye -- could be such a devout follower of jeezus. I've never known any SMART x'tians before, so this is new for me. Also, he and my cousin are apparently environmentalists as well as anti-racism activists. Two things I don't normally associate with evangelicals.

 

I would love to hear feedback from ex-C's on any or all of the above topics. I'm really just trying to understand how they think and what is different about them... after all.. they don't seem to fit many of the x'tian stereotypes I've long-believed to be true. I also trying to ascertain if it's possible for X'tians and agnostics to truly be friends without judging each other. Thanks!

[SWIM]

I'm really just trying to understand how they think and what is different about them... after all.. they don't seem to fit many of the x'tian stereotypes I've long-believed to be true. I also trying to ascertain if it's possible for X'tians and agnostics to truly be friends without judging each other. Thanks!

 

Many christians are that way because they have been taught that doctrine from childhood. As a child, your brain is growing, forming neural pathways, the foundations of personality are being laid etc etc. Now, being told *repeatedly* something exists or is so, causes more memory cells to *record* this, and actual pathways in the brain are altered. This is why people born of muslims, tend to be muslim, christians tend to be christian etc etc.

 

As they grow and become aware of logical processes, the mind, on a subconscious level, must deal with these illogics. They being to start asking questions to *cure* the logic paradox in their minds. However, if the concept of *faith* (believing fully with no evidence) is instilled strongly enough, it will *override* the logic component of the brain.

 

So this theory explains how one can have a PHD and still be evangelical.

 

It is not likely that *all* christians can be deconverted for this reason, as it goes beyond basic phsycology, it actually has roots in brain chemistry. I suggest you just learn to deal with them and don't bother trying to change them. Due to the nature of the problem change will only come about when the person is actually *willing* to change. The must participate, or they won't de-convert.

 

Good luck

[Ro-bear]

Christianity, or any theistic belief system for that matter, is not mutually exclusive with regard to intelligence. I do think that for the population as a whole there is an inverse relationship between religious belief and intelligence and/or level of education. However, I have known brilliant Christians and stupid atheists. One of the smartest people I know is a devout Catholic; another is Hindu. I think for them it is a base assumption that they never really question. I suppose it works for them. I don't know how they can believe such nonsense, but they do. There is no denying the power of their intellects, though. One has the broadest and deepest knowledge of the humanities I've ever seen in a person. The other is a computer whiz with a keen ability to identify and solve problems. He is also a killer on crossword puzzles, having a huge English vocabulary despite the fact that it is a second language for him.

[Guest lifelong_agnostic]

Both previous replies are interesting. I'm wondering if anyone out there has friends who are Evangelical? I feel that Evangelicals -- much moreso than Catholics -- tend to let religion/god/jesus touch and dictate everything in their lives. I saw at my cousin's wedding that everyone there was VERY devout Christian (capital C inentional). For fun, they go on Bible retreats together. I get the feeling that she does not have any non-Christian friends. Does this tend to be the case with evangelicals? Do they have trouble being around people who are "heathens?" If I try to deepen my relationship with her, will she ultimately try to convert me?

 

I'm just trying to understand their mentality. I do have friends who are Catholic, Jewish, etc. I get an entirely different vibe from the Evangelicals. It's as if they are trying to lure me, an if they cannot... then they just feel sorry for me

 

Thanks.

[Ex-COG]

Both previous replies are interesting. I'm wondering if anyone out there has friends who are Evangelical? I feel that Evangelicals -- much moreso than Catholics -- tend to let religion/god/jesus touch and dictate everything in their lives. I saw at my cousin's wedding that everyone there was VERY devout Christian (capital C inentional). For fun, they go on Bible retreats together. I get the feeling that she does not have any non-Christian friends. Does this tend to be the case with evangelicals? Do they have trouble being around people who are "heathens?" If I try to deepen my relationship with her, will she ultimately try to convert me? I'm just trying to understand their mentality. I do have friends who are Catholic, Jewish, etc. I get an entirely different vibe from the Evangelicals. It's as if they are trying to lure me, an if they cannot... then they just feel sorry for me

 

Thanks.

 

When I was an evangelical, my entire social life centered around my church. My vacations were spent at campmeetings and assisting with youth trips and conventions. I didn't hang around with anyone who wasn't an evangelical Christian. Heck, I even broke up with a guy once because he was Catholic, and I thought it couldn't work out. When I was around those whom I considered non-believers I always was friendly, and tried not to be pushy about my faith other than being open about attending church, but I was very conscience of what I said or did, as I felt this was a good "Christian" example and could lead others to ask me questions, or at least seek out info on their own. Kind of along the lines of "Gee, she is kind/thoughtful/helpful/etc., it must be because she's a Christian. I want to be like that." I think your last line hits the nail on the head; they are trying to lure you and get you to bite, reel you in and throw you in the church-shaped bucket labeled "Newly Born-Again." If you don't cooperate, they will feel very sorry for you, as you are supposedly on your way to hell.

[pitchu]

Welcome, Lifelong.

 

You have lots of questions -- good for you. If you keep reading at this site you'll find many perspectives on most of your questions, since very few of us have escaped family difficulties due to religious differences.

 

One issue you raised, in particular, is a relatively new phenomenon, and that's the gravitation of primarily young evangelicals into the field of ecology, environmentalism and human rights. At first blush, these seem to be a group whose emphasis is less on the Falwellian concepts of "family values" and more on the kinds of issues in which christians were deeply involved in the 19th century (abolition, women's rights, etc.). I don't know enough to venture an opinion on whether this stripe of christian is more welcome at mixed family gatherings.

 

You might start learning a little about them here:

http://www.evaneco.com/

[Robbobrob]

Welcome to the boards.

 

Last night's American Dad was about this very topic. Stan realized he had no friends. While praying to God, a man shows up...has all the qualities Stan has: Republican conservative, and a love of paddleboats. The guy is perfect, except, the guy is an Atheist. And Stan spends the rest of the show trying to convert the guy, because Stan can not accept this one difference.

 

But even I have to admit, if someone makes their Christianity one of the mentioned important parts of their life, I do shy away from them. Too many other atributes are likely to come along with that, and too much bad experience dating women who put their Christianity in front of their other interests, to want to be close to someone who believes that much.

 

Even the smartest of men and women seem to compartimentalize their religious beliefs, and are willing to believe the craziest things that in other aspects of their life would never accept.

[SWIM]

Welcome to the boards.

 

Last night's American Dad was about this very topic. Stan realized he had no friends. While praying to God, a man shows up...has all the qualities Stan has: Republican conservative, and a love of paddleboats. The guy is perfect, except, the guy is an Atheist. And Stan spends the rest of the show trying to convert the guy, because Stan can not accept this one difference.

 

But even I have to admit, if someone makes their Christianity one of the mentioned important parts of their life, I do shy away from them. Too many other atributes are likely to come along with that, and too much bad experience dating women who put their Christianity in front of their other interests, to want to be close to someone who believes that much.

 

Even the smartest of men and women seem to compartimentalize their religious beliefs, and are willing to believe the craziest things that in other aspects of their life would never accept.

 

I love American Dad and Family Guy (made by the same folks) there are lots of thought provoking messages "between the lines" that inspire folks to think more openly and I like that.

[Guest lifelong_agnostic]

Welcome to the boards.

 

Last night's American Dad was about this very topic.

 

I wish I had seen that! I'm one of those weird people without cable, so I guess I'll have to watch online or wait for the DVD.

[L.B.]

You know, I have been on both sides of the issue at hand, and it is pretty interesting to watch the dynamics. I used to sit at family gatherings and cluck my tongue like a fucking hen at my cousins (who were raised going to catholic church but don't have any particular religion now). I used to think, "how deluded they all are without Jayyyzus." Then I would listen to my uncle, who, while still being as relativistic and morally changeable as any other average suburbanite left over from the 50s, actually believes he is a devout Catholic because he collects the offering at his church. He loves to tell stories about getting drunk in the sacristy with the priest at New Year's Eve masses, when the priest would offer him a shot or 5 for the holiday.

 

Anyway, nowadays I have a much better relationship with my cousins as I have found the freedom to be able to converse with them and have fun without the spectre of the UberGhostie imaginarily over my shoulder.

 

On the other hand, one person who was one of my closest friends as an evanjellyfish (we live far away and hadn't talked a whole lot lately, so it hasn't been the same as him being real family anymore) still is a hard-core, tongue-talking fundie of the boldest stripe. I mean, tract-handing, sin- and sinner-condemning, no secular music, barely any TV or movies to speak of... church 5 or more times a week... several long phone calls with his 'leaders' or 'teachers' a week to prop up his neuroses with some good 'ol Bahble.

 

Now that I have nothing mentally or logically or philosophically to do with Xtianity, I have stopped taking his phone-calls just because I know what he will be calling for... he will want a Xtian wank-session where he gets to yell about all the sinners in the world and how we need to go hold evangelistic meetings in our old hometown and how all these people need Jayzus and the Ghostie and shandala-bobo-masa-balando mo-shendelay-basa. Hallelujah! Whoo! The Holy Ghost just came upon me just then! Glow-RAY!

 

Anyway, take the nice feelings you have when you can have a conversation or relationship that doesn't revolve around imaginary Flying Zombie Jews, and enjoy them. As far as the glassy-eyed lemmings who cannot imagine having anything to do with unbelievers except convert them or pity them... oh, well. Move on. I don't talk to all of my family, even though some of them are not religious at all. Chalk it up to different personalities that just don't mix; the old oil and water analogy.

 

Best wishes; be well.

[SWIM]

Welcome to the boards.

 

Last night's American Dad was about this very topic.

 

I wish I had seen that! I'm one of those weird people without cable, so I guess I'll have to watch online or wait for the DVD.

 

 

Here's a suggestion youtube!

 

You may not get the most current ones, and there is a 10 min time limit per clip, but I have spent hours watching all the various clips.

[Guest lifelong_agnostic]

Thanks to LB for the helpful reply from someone who has been there. It's definitely interesting (and sad) that I am right. They DO feel sorry for me... as much as my cuzin tries to pretend she does not. (She's really very sweet and has never tried to convert me, which I greatly appreciate. More than any other X'tian I've met, she is very genuine and seems to "get" the fact that I'm not going to change.)

 

I just need to get over this...I realize it. The sadness just keeps surfacing every time I'm around my relatives. I am sad that we cannot be closer, because we DO have a lot of fun together. My cousin, her sister and her mom have good senses of humor and are very intelligent, witty people. We also have somewhat similar politics, I think my evanjellyfish cousin is actually an enironmentalist now. How unlikely but wonderful!

 

I needed a reality check from all of you.... because I feel this sadness every time I am around them. Our relationship is so shallow because we cannot talk about so many things. I really despise organized religion for brainwashing my relatives and dividing our family.

 

Michael, yes, I often forget about YouTube. I'll try it. I do watch other shows online.

[Kurari]

Lifelong,

 

Welcome to the forum. I too was raised by agnostics. I got a case of God at a young age, but my upbringing just didn't allow me to make much sense of it. I also have a few VERY fundy family members who are Presbyterians. I am Atheist/Buddhist. I also live with a Catholic roomate and a Methodist roomate, a Wiccan/Pagan rooomate, and I am openly Atheist/Buddhist. Yes, it's entirely possible to get along with people with extremely differing religious beliefs. I know what you're talking about with that "Oh pity her" looks. It used to rankle me a bit, but then I realized I believe the exact same of them and felt sorry for them. Still do, but it's really not very important in the grand scheme of things.

 

You say you have great fun with your relatives as people and this one cousin in particular, who seems receptive to discussing things openly with you and being respectful about it. Religion is only a big deal if you make it out to be. You have fun with this side of the family, go see where it takes you. Lay down boundries if they try to push you and simply say "Religion is a very private subject for me and I'd rather not talk about it." Then change the subject to a mutually enjoyable one. Keep communication clear and open, and if they want to get to know you as a person, they will let it go and do so. If they don't, remember it's not really a personal thing. If they are that blindsided and see everything through their religion to the point where it shuts them off from life, it effects EVERYONE around them. And it's not something you want to have in your life anyway.

[R. S. Martin]

Kurari, I'm reading your response and thinking of a chat I had with my atheist neighbour this afternoon. He comes from a Mennonite family, too. I liked the words he used to describe the behaviour. He described it to politicians who try so hard to get people to vote for them. That is how family acts when religion is more important than relationships with family. Lifelong, I have had to cut contact with my family for my own emotional well-being. I'm developing surrogate family. I happen to have a few extra-special neighbours with whom I have arrangements. He's one of them. I would suggest to make the best of what you've got and take it from there.