Taoism And Buddhism

[Evolution_beyond]

Simple question, with probably a very complicated answer. What do you think? Is Taoism a religion or just a philosophy for living? Is Buddhism a religion or simple a philosophy for living?

 

I think I know what Jun will say already - but I'm interested in other people's views as well.

[SWIM]

Simple question, with probably a very complicated answer. What do you think? Is Taoism a religion or just a philosophy for living? Is Buddhism a religion or simple a philosophy for living?

 

I think I know what Jun will say already - but I'm interested in other people's views as well.

 

 

It seems to me that when you start "structuring and organizing" any set of philosopies and "methods of thinking" it may start out innocent enough, but then degrades into a religion.

 

What seems to start with a group of people meeting because they simply share a common belief, that soon you see "robes" and "candles" then "big buildings" then, of course, guidelines etc etc. It's like people just can't help themselves. The temptation to become a religion seems to be very strong when things start to get organized.

 

This is how many cults start, with just a group of people meeting to "study" or "discuss", before you know it, the head speaker is jesus living on earth etc etc.

 

Taoism and buddhism surely don't have a jesus figure, but they do share similar beliefs within the "group".

 

IMO this restricts thinking. In an effort to fit into the group, and be a part of it, many people feel the *need* to nod in agreement with other people. When you do that, many times you are shelving your own thoughts, and *using* someone elses. It's the path of least resistance that so many people follow. It is so much easier to say, well, hell!, these people already have it figured out, so why both analyzing it.

[Dave]

Both groups share all the attributes of a religion.... even immortal and/or supernatural beings. Those beings (totally unrealated to a Western concept of a god) don't play a central role for all the adherants, but they are there. I'd say that both definately are a religion. That's not a bad thing. "Religion" is not a derogatory word.

[RedPillAddict]

I think Buddhism is a religion, but not so much Taoism.

I have ran into some extremely arrogant Buddhists that just try to shoot down everything you say and overcome it with some witty down-talk. The whole "you have to be a true Buddhist to understand what I am saying" thing. I have also met a lot of people that just view it as a philosophy, and take what they find meaningful from it.

It's the same with everything, though. Within each group there are "good" people and "bad" people.

 

I am reading the Tao Te Ching right now, and it's interesting, but there is also a lot of common sense in there.

[Kuroikaze]

It depends on what is meant by "religion." If you are referring to a belief in the supernatural then in both cases it could be either a yes or no depending on who you talk to.

 

In both Buddhism and Taoism you will find those who are skeptical of the supernatural and others quite involved in it.

Taoism has had more sects than Christianity. A short run down of some of the ideas that Taoist thinkers have put through during Chinese history

 

1. Te (a persons life force) is expended when one acts to change the world around you, so one may live forever if they learn to live without influencing the world.

2. People who believed they could learn to manipulate the Tao in order to cast magic spells

3. People who believed they could manipulate the Tao to become invincible warriors.

 

Those are ones I can think of off the top of my head. Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of Taoist teachings, but some people have certainly taken it in some odd directions.

[Rev R]

they are both

 

There are sects of Buddhism that are very much religious and some that are not. Not being the scholar that Jun is, I'd dare say that the separation between religious and secular viewpoints lie within the sub-divisions of the myriad schools. For example teacher A may present a more religious slant and Teacher B may be more secular but both follow the same tradition (eg, Zen).

 

Taoism on the other hand does have a very clear separation between the religious and philosophical views.

[Religion Destructor]

They are religions. You are required to believe in their stories and gods, so they are religions.

 

Zen says it's not a religion but it's the most religious of Buddhism.

 

Taoism believes in immortal beings. Buddhism believes in the Buddha.

 

There are sects of Buddhism that are very much religious and some that are not.

 

Religious means the worship of a doctrine or god or divine beings. to be unified in practising a belief. Buddhism and Taoism are religions. Without their beliefs they would not exist.

[Evolution_beyond]

They are religions. You are required to believe in their stories and gods, so they are religions.

 

What gods? Buddhism and Taoism have no gods.

 

Religious means the worship of a doctrine or god or divine beings. to be unified in practising a belief. Buddhism and Taoism are religions. Without their beliefs they would not exist.

 

Then I fail to see the difference between philosophies and these religions-without-god.

 

Is existentialism a religion? For that matter is scientific humanism a religion?

 

If not, why not? They involve 'doctrines' - without 'belief' in those doctrines then they would not exist.

[Religion Destructor]

What gods? Buddhism and Taoism have no gods.

 

The Buddha is a god. The rupakaya and the dharmakaya or the tripartite forms of the Buddha. The Buddha is formless and eternal and sits in the Pure land with his bodhisattva attendants who are lesser gods. They look down upon man from heaven and assist in helping man to rid himself of his defilements.

 

Buddhists dress in funny clothes, chant, perform rituals and dance and sing in their temples which they go to pray to the Buddha. That's a religion. Buddha is a god.

 

For that matter is scientific humanism a religion?

 

Yes.

[hereticzero]

A way of thought becomes a religion when one begins to quote from whoever thought it up first. Someone who follows the teaching is a disciple. Christians who follow Democracy and preach it as a christian philosophy for government, are disciples of Democracy as well as xtianity. If we followed our way of life, we would not allow religious thought to reside with our own intellectual desires. A religion becomes a way of life after we have chosen to follow its methods. If we did not follow the religion, it would not be a way of life.

[Ouroboros]

The Buddha is a god. The rupakaya and the dharmakaya or the tripartite forms of the Buddha. The Buddha is formless and eternal and sits in the Pure land with his bodhisattva attendants who are lesser gods. They look down upon man from heaven and assist in helping man to rid himself of his defilements.

There are different schools/sects of Buddhism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schools_of_Buddhism

 

Some of them are more religion, like the concepts of rupakaya and dharmakaya seems to be more of mahayana version. I've heard of Buddhists who are practically atheists. They don't believe in anything spiritual, but the concepts of Buddhism can be applied.

 

Just like Christianity got a whole slew of variations, so does this religion, and to generalize one way or the other would probably be completely wrong.

 

 

 

Buddhists dress in funny clothes, chant, perform rituals and dance and sing in their temples which they go to pray to the Buddha. That's a religion. Buddha is a god.

Really? I will ask my Buddhist friends about these things today. I probably know more Buddhists nowadays than Christians... (kind'a weird...)

 

For that matter is scientific humanism a religion?

 

Yes.

Well, I'm a non practicing atheist.. I mean, I don't go to our Church that much. However, I do try to practice the mantras and core dogma of our codex, but I find it kind of discomforting to have to pray to Richard Dawkins every Sunday.

[Evolution_beyond]

The Buddha is a god.

 

No he's not.

 

The rupakaya and the dharmakaya or the tripartite forms of the Buddha.

 

The what now?

 

The Buddha is formless and eternal and sits in the Pure land with his bodhisattva attendants who are lesser gods.

 

Sounds like Pure Land buddhism - or buddhism that has been altered so as to be all comfy, cozy for those who like the idea of heaven.

 

Less effort, more superstition. Buddhism-lite

 

Buddhists dress in funny clothes, chant, perform rituals and dance and sing in their temples

 

The monks might do - the laymen don't.

 

which they go to pray to the Buddha. That's a religion. Buddha is a god.

 

Pray to Buddha? I don't pray to Buddha and I've never met a Buddhist who did.

 

I know that places in Asia build statues of the Buddha. And I know that people often meditate in front of those statues.

 

I'm not sure about this 'praying to Buddha' thing though. I've never come across it.

[Ouroboros]

My understanding of the Buddha statue isn't that it's there to be prayed to, but as a reminder of thinking of what Buddha said, or something. Right? It's like having a plaque on the lawn saying, "warning! Vicious dog," which doesn't mean you bow down and pray to the sign or worship the dog, but you think about the meaning of the sign... and run...

[Deva]

Zen says it's not a religion but it's the most religious of Buddhism.

 

In what way?

 

Buddhism believes in the Buddha.

 

Again, in what way? The Buddha was a human being, not a god. Some may bow before images of the Buddha but that does not mean he is considered a god. In Zen he is not prayed to, in my experience.

[BlueGiant]

I'd point out that the Tao Te Ching has very little to say about gods (more like nothing), though it does contain a view of a world that is not entirely incompatible with deity (at least my reading of it). Taoism does follow a non-theistic philosophical branch and a various-forms-of-out-there magical/religious branch. Various local folk gods can be integrated into it, or ignored as one wishes, in other words, it is easy to make into a syncretic faith.

 

From what I know about Buddhism, it is much the same (and treated much the same), that while there is a core philosophy, various mystic beliefs can be grafted onto it without too much trouble. Whatever helps people sleep better at night.

 

I think this quote illustrates the situation, in a way:

"His followers called him Mahasamatman and said he was a god. He preferred to drop the Maha- and the -atman, and called himself Sam. He never claimed to be a god. But then, he never claimed not to be a god. Circumstances being what they were, neither admission could be of any benefit. Silence, though, could." --Roger Zelazny Lord of Light

[Religion Destructor]

I'm not sure about this 'praying to Buddha' thing though. I've never come across it.

 

Youve never been to Japan then. Buddha statues have special prayers on paper and sutras rolled up inside them that are there to give the statue the power of life as a Buddha. The Monks pray to the statue to communicate with the Buddha. That makes Buddha a god.

 

In Zen he is not prayed to, in my experience.

 

Well go to Japan to a zen temple. The monks pray to maitreya and Buddha and to the statues of the dead monks. They also pray to the spirits of dead people to make them happy and comfort them. They give Buddha a bath on his birthday and wash him and put him in blankets like the baby Jesus in his crib. Then they pray to him.

 

My understanding of the Buddha statue isn't that it's there to be prayed to, but as a reminder of thinking of what Buddha said, or something.

 

That's what Suzuki said in his books. But Suzuki lied. He wasn't even a zen master just a scholar. He showed a zen for western people without the beliefs of Japan so that western people will like it. That is what attracted me, the reason I was suckered in. I expected to see what he said in his books not monks praying to Buddha as god. What Suzuki talks about zen is not in Japan. It is his invention for western people.

[Religion Destructor]

Sounds like Pure Land buddhism - or buddhism that has been altered so as to be all comfy, cozy for those who like the idea of heaven.

 

That is every temple I went to in China and most in Japan too. Even the ones that is not Pure land Shin Buddhism has this belief. I will tell you about Amida every one knows this one from the big statue in Kamakura. Amida is the fourth jina Buddha. There are five jina Buddha. Dainichi, Kongosatta, Ashuka, Amida, Fukokujo. Amida is the historical Buddha Shakya. In Japan monks have to pray to Amida saying namuamidabutsu which is 'I pray to Amida Buddha.' This is most famous Buddhism in Japan and almost everyone believes this cult more than even zen. In China too this is the most famous cult. They call this Buddha Omituo fo in China. Monks have to pray to Amida in the morning and the night and ask for Amida to ensure they will be reborn in the Pure land heaven when they die otherwise if they don't ask they may go to hell. Just like Christianity. Amida living in the Pure land heaven is able to hear the prayers of everyone and welcome them to the Pure land heaven. That is a god. Not a human being. So Buddha is a god for monks to pray to so they can go to the Pure land heaven. Amida has two acolytes that help him and they are Kannon and Jizou. Jizou is the god of hell and Kannon is the goddess of mercy. They can be prayed to for mercy or to save people from going to hell. Monks pray to Jizou so that they won't go to hell.

 

Lay people buy special pictures of them to pray to or to wear around their neck for protection. They are blessed by the monks with the power from the Amida statue.

 

In what way?

 

Zen is mostly rituals about praying to different gods in different halls at different times of the day. In zen monks wake up early to perform washing and eating as a ritual with strict rules and no one can talk. Then they go to the prayer hall to pray to Kannon, and then to pray to Buddha, and then to pray to Jizou. There are special chants for each statue and for each prayer they want to have answered. More chants than in the Shingon magic ritual cult of Vajrayana Buddhism. Then they eat a lunch without talking. And more praying and then walking around the halls counter-clockwise to remove bad karma and delusions. How this happens by walking it was never explained to me. Then more prayer this time to the statues of past masters of the temple. In most of the temples of zen the past masters are more important than the Buddha, and they are prayed to twice a day. There is more ritual in the zen school like a Christian church with lots of standing then sitting then kneeling then bowing and chanting. And it all has to be done the right way or the head monks get angry and there is a punishment for doing something in the wrong order like no lunch or dinner or you have to wash everyone at bath time.

[Heavenslaughing]

Does X belong to category Y?

 

These sorts of questions don't go much of anywhere when no one agrees on what constitutes category Y, particularly when people are differently informed on the properties of X to boot.

 

Here are a few definitions of religion at use in this thread and elsewhere:

 

1. Belief in any supernatural beings

 

2. Belief in God or gods

 

3. Any set of doctrinal beliefs

 

4. The set of meanings invented to deal with existential concerns such as death

 

5. The legitimating discourses and practices for any social system

 

6. A community imagined around the sacred

 

 

Defining religion around a set of beliefs (which is in theory exchangeable for another set of beliefs) is an extremely Christian perspective, by the way. This understanding of religion undergirds the project of missionization and conversion. The last three definitions derive from several schools of thought in the study of religion. Needless to say, there are quite a few more, but this is off the top of my head. Taoism and Buddhism will fare differently depending on the definition and what kind of Taoism or Buddhism you're talking about.

 

Why is it interesting to answer the question of whether Taoism is a religion? What will answering this question of categories tell you that exploring Taoist cosmology will not?

[Insanity personified]

What gods? Buddhism and Taoism have no gods.

 

The Buddha is a god. The rupakaya and the dharmakaya or the tripartite forms of the Buddha. The Buddha is formless and eternal and sits in the Pure land with his bodhisattva attendants who are lesser gods. They look down upon man from heaven and assist in helping man to rid himself of his defilements.

 

Buddhists dress in funny clothes, chant, perform rituals and dance and sing in their temples which they go to pray to the Buddha. That's a religion. Buddha is a god.

 

For that matter is scientific humanism a religion?

 

Yes.

 

1. I think you're confusing Pure Land Buddhism with other sects of Buddhism (look it up, I haven't the energy to explain it here)

 

2. LOL, secular humanism is a religion now?

[Vomit Comet]

It's basically a bunch of invented metaphysics that some group of people, however many millenia ago, pulled out of thin air and wove together into a semi-cohesive narrative of the universe. Because it sounded cool.

 

If that ain't a religion, then I would say it's close enough. Or stated alternately, if that's not a religion, then Christianity is a relationship.

[PandaPirate]

I think taoism is more of a way of life whereas Buddhism is more of a "spirituality."

[orlando]

I don't know much about Taoism, but re. Buddhism: there are various different versins, some more "religious"than others. However on the whole I think it has the characteristics of a religion.

 

Many BUddhists - not all - believe in some form of gods and spirits, even if they are not central to the religion.

 

They mostly believe in some form of reincarnation, though it is a bit of a convoluted doctrine in Buddhism, rather like the Trinity in terms of getting your head round it. Some Buddhists believe in a kind of soul that moves on, but many say there is no soul as such but even so one life, and the person having attachments to earthly existence, and sensations and pleasures and cravings etc, causes another life to start somehow.

However if there is no "soul"I don't understand in what way the next life is still the same person -- nonetheless, a key goal of Buddhism is to supposedly break this cycle.

 

Another religious aspect is the belief that one can attain a special state called Nirvana, where one breaks the cycle of rebirths and exists in some state of blissful oneness with the universe -- which is unproveable and impractical. To gain this most Buddhists say you need to aim for a state of detchment about earthly pleasures and ambitions and the physical body and even your sense of self as seperate from others (not practical or helpful for enjoying this life), a state where you have no desires and cravings, no ego, and a state of pure compassion to all without attachment -- mainly not very practical or do-able, much like the more extreme demands of Jesus.

 

BUddhisms was also, initially, and still is in some countries -- very much associated with monasticism - the ideal Buddhist (and in some theories the only one who can gain enlightenment) is the monk who gives up family life etc and focusses on his spiritual goals in a simple life of meditation and community living without material possessions and without sex. traditionally monks would beg their food from local villages. If everyone did that it would not help the world much! Giving to monks, any other virtuous acts, is supposed to accrue merit for the layperson, for example helping towards their eventual enlightenment and a better rebirth - also a religious idea.

 

Some modern Buddhists just reduce it to a code of ethics plus some meditation essentially, but then I think they are just reinventing it, a bit like very liberal Christians.

[Vomit Comet]

Religion = made-up beliefs about the alleged metaphysical and/or spiritual side of existence, no matter how fragmentary, disorganized, self-contradictory, fluctuating, intangible, or personalizable. Buddhism and Taoism certainly qualify, if we are to go by that definition. Which, just like a religion, I made up.

[Deva]

To me it is unimportant whether or not Buddhism is a religion.

 

What is important is whether or not it helps me in my life and is it true or not. True in the sense of according to my experience of life and whether or not it is in conflict with the findings of science. I have found the Buddha dharma to be both helpful and true.

 

Buddhism is a way of life or it is useless IMO.

[TheHammer]

I know next to nothing about Taoism, but Buddhism is a religion, no doubt about it. In some ways, the veneration of the Buddha could remind you of worship, a bit like with saints for Catholics, but Buddhism is, strictly speaking, an atheistic religion.