Mommy Sent Me A Bad Analogy

[brad_religion]

Hey folks, I was sitting here last night minding my own business, when I received an email forwarded to me from my christian mom. Now, she and I made an agreement to keep religion as a topic of conversation out of our communication as much as possible. Apparently she didn't want to, so because she declared to go over the line, I also wrote a response to this email.

 

Let the email speak for itself :

 

A man went to a barbershop to have his hair cut and his beard trimmed.

 

As the barber began to work, they began to have a good conversation.

 

They talked about so many things and various subjects.

 

When they eventually touched on the subject of God, the barber said:

 

"I don't believe that God exists."

 

"Why do you say that?" asked the customer. "Well, you just have to go out in the street to realize that God doesn't exist.

 

Tell me, if God exists, would there be so many sick people?

 

Would there be abandoned children?

 

If God existed, there would be neither suffering nor pain.

 

I can't imagine a loving God who would allow all of these things."

 

The customer thought for a moment, but didn't respond because he didn't want to start an argument.

 

The barber finished his job and the customer left the shop.

 

Just after he left the barbershop, he saw a man in the street with lo ng, stringy, dirty hair and an untr immed beard.

 

He looked dirty and unkempt. The customer turned back and entered the barber shop again and he said to the barber:

 

"You know what? Barbers do not exist."

 

"How can you say that?" asked the surprised barber.

 

"I am here, and I am a barber. And I just worked on you!"

 

"No!" the customer exclaimed. "Barbers don't exist because

 

if they did, there would be no people with dirty long hair and untrimmed beards, like that man outside."

 

"Ah, but barbers DO exist! That's what happens when people do not come to me."

"Exactly!" affirmed the customer. "That's the point! God, too, DOES exist!

That's what happens when people do not go to Him and don't look to Him for help.

That's why there's so much pain and suffering in the world."

If you think God exists, send this to other people---

If you think God does not exist, delete it!

BE BLESSED & BE A BLESSING TO OTHERS !!!!!!!

 

 

My reply :

 

Hi folks, I was forwarded this email about a barber

story to explain why God allows pain. Being that I am

an atheist, I find this to be ironic. I also feel

that if someone is going to push this argument on me,

it is fair for those who also hear it to hear a

response to it as well.

 

Where should I begin? Well, using the hypothesis that

the Christian god does exist, there is only 1 real

valid explanation that makes the most sense, given the

attributes of said god of being omnipotent,

omnipresent, omniscient and all loving.

 

What is interesting is how many times I am told by

believers that God is like a human father who loves us

as a good parent does. But, when you point out the

obvious flaw of that argument to them, with the

suffering/pain argument, they tend to speak the

opposite by saying we can’t compare God to us, since

we are fallen, sinful creatures and he is just and

holy. “His ways are higher than our ways†the mantra

rings. Yet, what they attempt to do is create a straw

man they themselves have admitted exists.

 

To compare a person’s choice to not go to the barber

for a haircut, with human beings who don’t “go to Godâ€

to alleviate suffering, is about as far as apples are

from oranges as you can get. The fact is that in

spite of going to God, Christians and non-Christians

alike still suffer pain and agony, despite what their

personal beliefs are about any god. Perhaps some can

use God as a method of enduring the pain more than

others, but they still have suffering nevertheless.

And the analogy is supposedly about how if you go to

the barber, you will get a haircut and if you go to

God, you won’t suffer anymore.

 

This comparison is about as silly and indifferent to

its subject matter as Pascal’s wager is to being

“lucky†enough to make it to heaven on a bet.

 

The attributes Christians define about their god has a

self-admission of guilt in it. If I told you that a

friend I know loves you and me more than our own

family does, and they are able to stop and prevent

rape, murder, genocide, starvation, etc, then your

obvious question would be “why won’t your friend stop

it then, if he has the power to?â€. If my answer was,

"well, my friend doesn’t want to violate the free will

of the murderer and/or rapist, that is why he doesn’t

stop them", you might consider my friend partly guilty

of the crime, since he is able to stop it, but

doesn’t. Or, if I said "My friend also is there

watching the crime happen, but doesn’t lift a finger

to stop it", you would probably think my friend is

quite mad. Or another clever one is : "My friend

wants to see what other people will do to stop it,

even if they don’t have the power to." But, if I used

the Christian response in that example, I could simply

say another line out of my excuse box and say “well,

my friend is a member of royalty and he is good

whether he does evil or notâ€, you might say that is

insane to even suggest, yet that is almost always the

answer it comes down to from the Christian

perspective, whether Calvinistic or free will.

 

Calvinists are pretty upfront about such an evil

entity they align themselves with (God hates the

wicked), but free will believers tend to care more

about appearances and how things sound (God loves

everyone in the whole wide world), but when you back

them in a corner, they end up justifying their god’s

horror on humanity just as a Calvinist does.

 

Ultimately, based on the data we can easily observe

currently and historically, if one has a belief in a

personal god that involves itself with humanity, 1 of

2 conclusions make the most logical sense. Either God

does not exist, or he is unimaginably cruel and wicked

and how awful it would be if such a being did exist

and was in control; and yet we still call him

benevolent!

 

I tend to go for the former, because it is more likely

to be true. When you put the pieces of the puzzle

together, it fits much better than the mental and word

gymnastics it takes to defend belief in biblegod.

Life is hard enough to live for most people as it is.

To add more worry about an afterlife we can't even

know exists is just a stressful and pointless

endeavor. The concept of eternal life most certainly

cheapens this life, for how can we compare a mere 80

years on earth to an eternity? We couldn't. However,

I KNOW this life is real based on the evidence. And

while it is not perfect, it can be pretty nice. The

christian afterlife is a religious lottery where

everyone who plays "wins", but the disappointing part

is the game is rigged and the ticket you have is

fraudulent. Turns out there was no money to win, only

the hope of winning it.

 

I don’t want the biblegod to exist for the same

reasons jews in World War 2 did not want Hitler to be

the Chancellor of Germany. The only immutable

difference is Hitler was a real monster, while Yahweh

is a figment of human imagination. However, this

tends to be scarier only because the voice people hear

is themselves, and they can dictate their own agenda

believing a god is telling them what it is.

 

Take this for what you will, I will not be afraid

anymore.

 

Matthew Hocker

[Aurelia]

Brad (Matthew?),

 

Enjoyed reading your well written response to your mom. Kudos to you for having the stamina to stand up for your lack of faith.

 

I still have a tendency to fire back "leave me alone and don't email me again" responses, followed by a nice blocking of their email address at the server when they don't comply, but perhaps someday I too will be able to respectfully put my thoughts into words as you have so eloquently done.

 

Let us know if you receive any responses from them, and best wishes to you!

 

~ Aurelia ~

[Ouroboros]

Awesome response Brad/Matt!

[SWIM]

Good read, and it's great you took the time to map out such a well thought response. I would be interested in reading feedback to this, post it if you get a reply. I normally have a short attention span lol, but this long response is worth the read.

[GraphicsGuy]

The analogy of the friend who could stop all the bad stuff from happening and doesn't was excellent. I've actually never heard nor thought of that before...and I hate feeling like I should have!

 

***loads debate pistol***

[Neon Genesis]

Another problem with the barber analogy is that it makes the assumption that there is only one barber to prove exists but obviously there is more than one barber in the world. Since there is more than one barber in the world, if you have to go to the barber to prove they exist, then you would have to go to every barber on the planet to prove that every barber in the world exists. Likewise if god is like a barber, then there is obviously more than one god and you would have to go to every god on the planet to prove that they exist. Some barbers are also better at cutting hair than other barbers, so you have to convince me why your barber is better than any one else out there to get me to use yours. But everyone has a personal preference as to which barber to use, so even if you think your barber is better than others, your barber might not cut my hair exactly the way I like it. Likewise if god is like a barber, then there are some gods that are better than others, so you have to convince me why your god is better than everyone elses to get me to believe in it. But since everyone has a personal preference as to what god means to them, even if you think your god is better than others, your god might not mean the same to them as it does to you. Thus the barber analogy only reinforces my belief that religion is a waste of time and like how people just pick and choose which barber appeals to them, people just pick and choose which god appeals them too.

[Ouroboros]

Some thoughts:

 

There are many barbers, hence there are many gods.

 

 

Someone walked into a barbershop to get a haircut, but he waited and never got a haircut. Time went on and his beard grew and his hair got longer. People were there and gave him food, and kept him company. Some even dressed him in a hat and some gave him a blanket to cover his beard, and they claimed "look you got a hair cut", or "look, you have been shaved!" But the truth was that he never got the cut or shaving. He kept on waiting... for 30 years... finally he decided, this barbershop doesn't have a barber. After that he claimed that he's agnostic when it comes to barbers, they might exist in another shop, but that particular barbershop does NOT have a barber. The name of that shop is: The Christian Barber.

[Mike D]

That barber anecdote was obviously written by a Christian, because no critical thinking atheist would ever claim that god doesn't exist based on things like pain and suffering in the world (obviously a thing can exist independent of whether it is nice or not). I personally think a Christian probably thought up the counter argument first and then had to back in the argument so it would make sense. Either way, a bad argument deserves an equally bad counter-argument.....

 

Edit: Not to confuse Brad (Matthew's) response with the "counter-argument"... the response was quite good, the whole barbershop thing was trite. Don't people know spam when they see it?

[Rev R]

Then there are people who cut their own hair so they have no need for a barber at all.

[brad_religion]

Hey people, just a note, my mom had sent me that forward as well as to her christian friends. I decided to copy all the email addresses of her christian friends and send my response to this barber story. Anyway, I just got a response, but not from a christian. He is the husband of a woman who attends my mother's church. He didn't say he was atheist, but said he basically rejected the supernatural, so I am going to assume he is an atheist. See what a little initiative does? Get to meet fellow skeptics you otherwise wouldn't meet. I should do it more often.

 

Anyway, I can post his email, but for obvious reasons, I'll remove his name and personal information.

 

> Hey Matthew,

> I am the [blank] part of the [blank] couple included in your response to the God & pain &

> suffering message. My wife is a believer and a

> member of the [blank] Assemblies of God seed

> church, while I, on the other hand, am a

> non-believer like you. When I saw your last name, I

> wondered if you were related to the [blank] who are

> also members of the church my wife attends? If you

> are the son of the [blank], I would imagine that

> makes for some pretty interesting family situations

> for you. My wife and I were both reared in a

> Lutheran church, but I started questioning church

> dogma as early as when I was in 7th grade. Although

> [blank] and I were married in our Lutheran church, I

> was by that time well on my way to rejecting all

> supernatural beliefs.

> Finding people with religious ideas like my own is

> rather rare, and I think it might be nice to speak

> with you in person. Currently, I am in [blank]

> house and dog sitting for my brother, but I expect

> to be back home on the 16th of December. We live at

> [blank], and my phone number

> is [blank]. I hope you might consider calling me

> when I return so we might chat.

> Best wishes,

[blank]

 

 

Hey [blank], it is great to hear from a fellow skeptic.

I am the son of [blank]. She sent me the

barber story as a forward. Basically, I became an

atheist back in March of 2006, and at first, my mom

was thinking I was just going through a phase of some

kind, but I really, truly was being honest about my

position.

 

My mom and I decided the best and most peaceful way to

"co-exist" in a sense is to just not bring up God or

religion when we get together or when she has her

christian friends over. But, I told her if she or

they bring it up, I have the right to respond, if they

feel they must push it, I should be able to push back.

 

 

If you are interested, I do have my anti-testimony for

your reading at :

http://exchristian.net/testimonies/2006/07...n-to-happy.html

 

There are also many other wonderful stories of people

who left the faith on that site.

 

I currently live in [blank] which is near

[blank]. We moved here because my mother-in-law

had horrible emphyzima and needed a lung transplant

and I wanted my wife to spend time with her mom,

because without a lung transplant, she wouldn't live

much longer (but thankfully, she received it in

October of this year). But, we both did like living

in the [blank] area and hopefully will return.

 

My phone # is [blank] if you ever want to give

me a buzz. Or if you wish to chat before you come

home, I could call you after 7 PM on my cell phone,

since it is free. Whatever is convenient for you.

 

Actually, we are coming to visit my mom on xmas (keep

the x in xmas!), so perhaps we could get together if

it isn't too hectic cuz of the holiday.

 

Well, I appreciate your email and it is nice to know

I'm not alone in my disbelief.

 

May the Flying Spaghetti Monster bless you this

holiday season with his noodly appendage,

 

Matt