On Bulldozed Fences And Persecution

[R. S. Martin]

I have now added an ammendment to the end of the OP. Hopefully that clears up the confusion.

[R. S. Martin]

The question that now confronts me is this: If I do not want to enlist anyone, yet I don't want to remove that part of my post, exactly what is it that I am trying to say?

 

This is really pushing me to some pretty deep and very personal stuff. History shows us that some of the most passionate revolutionaries of the world have been individuals who have suffered most deeply and survived, whether in the medical field or political or whatever. I guess no elaboration is required to convince most people that I fall into that category. Yet I am also one of those people who want to operate beneath the radar. I want to be able to walk the streets and write cheques and introduce myself by my real name in public places without fear for my life or reputation. I live in one of those towns where it is best not to advertize your atheism. If you're a low-profile nobody it's probably okay but I've done stuff nobody else I know of has ever done. I've taken a rural horse and buggy girl and transformed her into a university-degreed urbanite.

 

There are other individuals in North America who have done very similar things. I know of about half a dozen individuals in Canada and the US from plain Amish and Mennonite communities who either are working on or did their doctorates. A few of these are retired professors by now while another has just begun work on his degree. Another person is establishing her career. All of these come from churches that use cars. Some had high school education and some did not. There is a man from a horse and buggy community in the US who posted his story on the Main Blog; it was through it (the word "exMennonite) that I found this site. I don't know his level of education, but since he makes no mention of it I doubt that he had more than elementary school at the time of writing his story in 2003 because that is what horse and buggy Mennonites get. I would guess he dresses like mainstream society.

 

So you see, I'm scraping the bottom of the barrel looking for people like me and there ain't any. I'm too well known in too many churches and schools of this town and surrounding area to exist beneath the radar. I'm not a low-profile nobody who can safely wave an atheist banner. At least, I don't feel that way. But I know how you guys feel. At the same time, I've got this driving need or passion or whatever to do what I can to stop the religious abuse that is happening in my home community at the very moment. Stuff too horrible to think about. And it is only one of tens of thousands of such communities where such things are happening. PACIFISTS ARE KILLING IN THE NAME OF GOD.

 

So I guess what I am saying is that I am biding my time. I am personally not quite ready to do anything just yet but I am getting my ducks lined up. I need to finish my degree and get some basic training for myself. I am in contact with a few people and I trust--I KNOW--that there are people out there who are willing to join the fight in any way they can. The last thing needed for this kind of action is people who don't feel drawn to it. I believe that we are all talented in our own way and that we all do best if we work at something suited to our natural talents. I laboured too many decades in unsuitable positions to impose that on anyone.

 

I hope that between this post and my ammendment to the OP (and the other posts I wrote on this thread), this releases anyone from feelings of guilt or obligation that they assumed because of misunderstanding my OP. Nobody is being enlisted or drafted or forced against anybody's will or wishes so far as I know.

[The-Captain]

The question that now confronts me is this: If I do not want to enlist anyone, yet I don't want to remove that part of my post, exactly what is it that I am trying to say?

 

This is really pushing me to some pretty deep and very personal stuff. History shows us that some of the most passionate revolutionaries of the world have been individuals who have suffered most deeply and survived, whether in the medical field or political or whatever. I guess no elaboration is required to convince most people that I fall into that category. Yet I am also one of those people who want to operate beneath the radar. I want to be able to walk the streets and write cheques and introduce myself by my real name in public places without fear for my life or reputation. I live in one of those towns where it is best not to advertize your atheism. If you're a low-profile nobody it's probably okay but I've done stuff nobody else I know of has ever done. I've taken a rural horse and buggy girl and transformed her into a university-degreed urbanite.

 

So you see, I'm scraping the bottom of the barrel looking for people like me and there ain't any. I'm too well known in too many churches and schools of this town and surrounding area to exist beneath the radar. I'm not a low-profile nobody who can safely wave an atheist banner. At least, I don't feel that way. But I know how you guys feel. At the same time, I've got this driving need or passion or whatever to do what I can to stop the religious abuse that is happening in my home community at the very moment. Stuff too horrible to think about. And it is only one of tens of thousands of such communities where such things are happening. PACIFISTS ARE KILLING IN THE NAME OF GOD.

 

So I guess what I am saying is that I am biding my time. I am personally not quite ready to do anything just yet but I am getting my ducks lined up. I need to finish my degree and get some basic training for myself. I am in contact with a few people and I trust--I KNOW--that there are people out there who are willing to join the fight in any way they can. The last thing needed for this kind of action is people who don't feel drawn to it. I believe that we are all talented in our own way and that we all do best if we work at something suited to our natural talents. I laboured too many decades in unsuitable positions to impose that on anyone.

 

I hope that between this post and my ammendment to the OP (and the other posts I wrote on this thread), this releases anyone from feelings of guilt or obligation that they assumed because of misunderstanding my OP. Nobody is being enlisted or drafted or forced against anybody's will or wishes so far as I know.

 

Almost thou persuadeth me to join the movement ...no seriously

 

Im just not convinced "fighting" (plz define what you mean there), is the best way to bring about the change we all want. As I stated earlier I believe we are seeing xianity in its death throes (or at least its no longer the center of attention throes), and that passively providing a source for education is more than enough to show most people the truth.

 

Playing the part of the "enemy" the fundies make us out to be would be a mistake. To many of them it would simply fuel their paranoid delusions that there is large satanic effort to stop their "progress". I know it seems hard to not to try and correct what we see as the willful idiocy of the religous right, but xianity prides itself as a religion that "thrives under persecution". They welcome that stuff, a percieved threat (real or not), will be construed as proof that their way is right and "satan and his world are shaking in their boots". My theology professor recently said as much and recieved thunderous applause at a university assembly... it even made up a few of my peers minds, that werent so certain about all of it.

 

My opinion though based on my own limited experience, but based on what Ive seen from xians around me (granted they are fundie texan baptists) I have a basis for saying so.

[woodsmoke]

When the Native American tried that, it didn't end well...

 

True, and despite knowing better I'll take the bait in the interest of entertaining us both.

 

Being a somewhat keen student of history, I can identify what I see as the two greatest "mistakes" the Native Americans made (leaving out such things as "living in the Americas in the absence of large, domesticable livestock animals where they couldn't develop immunities to the diseases spawned thereby which the Europeans brought with them," however tempting). First, they had an emotional attachment to their homeland. Second, when they did finally resign to the inevitable advancement of the Europeans and move, they didn't move far enough. Understand, I don't blame them for either of these, nor do I think for an instant they could have been in any way expected to have realized, let alone avoided them. That's why "mistakes" is in quotes.

 

I, being an emotionless robot and a bitter, sarcastic, cynical sunuvabitch, suffer from neither of these. I have no emotional attachment whatsoever to my "home," and I'm perfectly willing to go half way 'round the world in pursuit of my desires. The U.S. may be a global superpower economically, but politically I'm sure it's possible to live even in it's closest ally nations (such as Britain or Canada) without being unduly affected by the policies of the Amerikan bread and circus.

[Grandpa Harley]

Canada... I don't want Americans clogging up my country complaining that the Macs taste strange, there are no Taco Bells or Red Lobsters, the cars are tiny, the petrol expensive, and the beer 'warm' since it doesn't have ice crystals forming in it....

[Vigile]

When the Native American tried that, it didn't end well...

 

That's because they were fenced in with no place to go. Xianity doesn't have the same reach it used to. Moreover, there are still lots of places it has never touched.

 

I tend to think xianity, if it's going to go away, will do so because it dies a slow and painful death as societies change in response to education. This is what happened in most of Europe. Anti xian movements are more likely to have the opposite of their desired effect. They create a perseption of persecution and xianity thrives under persecution.

 

I think, like Woody, I come here out of a need for a like-minded community and for the friendships I've developed. If I knock a believer off his soap box and into reality along the way, it's just unintentional, though not completely undesired fallout. I'm really not interested in what Dawkins and gang have going on. I've not even read an atheist book since I read Russel 15 or so odd years ago. And I wasn't entirely impressed with his arguments.

 

OTH, I do support efforts by the ACLU and such that hold xians within the bounds of already agreed upon limits of behavior.

[Alice]

Ruby,

 

I've been giving a lot of thought recently to how I feel about the notion of 'fighting' fundamentalism. For me, a major part of my deconversion has been about getting freed up to be more loving and accepting of others and I see the desire to 'fight' those who think differently as something that belongs to my fundie christian past so I feel uncomfortable when people talk about going into battle - although I do understand that in most instances this is meant figuratively and not literally.

 

I'm with the Doctor on this one.

 

(and only a David Tennant fan will understand quite how much I enjoyed saying that )

 

But I really do think the best way to handle a fundamentalist is with gentleness. It takes the wind out of their sails. It disproves what they've been taught about the 'enemy'. I'm not always able to do this (my sister pops into my head as I write this!) but I try to!

 

I've been thinking about opening a thread about the Diderot quote 'Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." and my view that man will never be 'free' whilst anyone still thinks that such a propsal - whether accepted figuartively or literally, will ever produce a peaceful solution to the 'human condition'.

 

However I hesitate because I know that the 'anger' phase - the very natural fight or flight response that kicks in as part of deconversion is both valid and 'real'. I see this as a 'phase' or 'route' and not a useful 'destination' in the journey of life but I know that many people don't see these feelings in this way and I'm not sure I want to draw fire in my direction by suggesting otherwise.

 

Its just that I see the way forward lies in a metaphorical disarming - not in amassing weapons or troops with which to smite the enemy.

 

My position is different again to that adopted by Woodsmoke as I'm perhaps more emotionally involved in what 'happens' and attached to the issues, although my approach would look very similar to his in action.

[Grandpa Harley]

Education is one of the greatest weapon in any revolutionary's arsenal... with guns, you have a critical dependency on bullets... and generally the people with most power have the better toys (cf The Third Reich Vs Poland - always have a shilling on the lads with tanks)

 

IMO, you give a man a gun and you end up with another martyr... give him the means to wreak mental change and you have a movement...

[woodsmoke]

Canada... I don't want Americans clogging up my country complaining that the Macs taste strange, there are no Taco Bells or Red Lobsters, the cars are tiny, the petrol expensive, and the beer 'warm' since it doesn't have ice crystals forming in it....

 

Bah, as if I'd choose England first anyway. I wouldn't be against living there, and would love to visit and drink up the history, but Scandinavia and Ireland place much higher on the list.

 

And in a twisted and not really endorsed "defense" of the last point, American "beer" has to be consumed ice cold. If it weren't people would catch on to the fact Anheiser-Busch is bottling and selling pasteurized horse piss.

[Grandpa Harley]

Based on my experiences with American linguistics (IBM think Brazil speaks Spanish, AT&T think Portugal speaks Spanish, and beyond "Voulez-vous coucher avec moi (ce soir)?" the French speaking world is given a miss... I could continue, but the CIA world book covers it better than I could...) I'd advise Ireland (at least the cities... outside I'm damned if I know what they speak), New Zealand, Australia, or failing, that Het Randstad... otherwise, it's the Falklands...

[R. S. Martin]

Education is one of the greatest weapon in any revolutionary's arsenal... with guns, you have a critical dependency on bullets... and generally the people with most power have the better toys (cf The Third Reich Vs Poland - always have a shilling on the lads with tanks)

 

IMO, you give a man a gun and you end up with another martyr... give him the means to wreak mental change and you have a movement...

 

I think you caught my vision at least to some extent. I personally have no idea how this thing should be achieved. I only know that it must be achieved.

 

However, as I have stated repeatedly on this thread, this topic never entered my head when I was posting this thread. I'm not sure what happened or why people are talking like this. I feel like I am being accused for something and I don't know what I am being accused for.

 

For those of you who refuse to believe me, take a look at what I was posting last summer on the topic. On Aug. 12, 2007 I posted the following here:

 

The goal of Foundation for Fighting Fundamentalist Religion is to undermine the POWER of fundamentalist religion. As I asked on another thread: Is that a realistic goal?

 

I think "realistic goals" is not an option. It may not be quite this serious. However, I think planet survival is closely related to getting rid of the POWER of fundamentalist religion. In other words, if We want this planet to survive for future generations, Fundamentalist Religion MUST GO.

 

But HOW????

 

HOW DO WE GET A FUNDY TO CHANGE HIS/HER MIND

 

Ideas, opinions, and stories are invited.

There are 19 posts on that thread. There have been more than 400 views. If people insist on discussing this topic, please, at the very least get it straight as to what I believe on the topic. Read the entire thread. Sign up and join the discussion where it is being discussed. This thread here on exC was started for a completely different purpose, as described in the first three-quarters of the OP. Just ignore the last part if you disagree with it.

[R. S. Martin]

Okay, the thing I wanted to rant about was what Taph said in her post that I copied from elsewhere:

 

[Christians] consider themselves entitled and above others rules. When you object to the bulldozed fences, they cry persecution.

As stated in the OP, Gene posted in the debate thread. Skip objected pretty strongly. Don't know Gene's feelings on that because he has not been back but typical fundy response is a cry of persecution. I use personal experience with family. They won't let me talk about stuff I learn here. I got "excommunicated" for answering their questions. They thought they were being persecuted. But they get to stuff religion and when I say no more letters of phone calls what do they do? They keep on sending letters and making phone calls. THAT is bulldozing fences. If I don't want to get bulldozed right along with the fences I will submit to the treatment. Many and many another ex-fundy gets this treatment. I understand these forums were set up to rant about this kind of thing. So that is what I wanted to do.

[R. S. Martin]

That is the most optimistic view I can muster of a very seriously dark situation. So long as I thought it's just the Mennonites and Amish who have such militant views of "the world," I wasn't worried. They're pacifists when it comes to physical harm. But when I got onto forums (this wasn't my first) and saw that Baptists held the same views, I got truly scared because I knew Baptists would not hesitate to take up arms. At that time I had not yet drawn the connection between the present war and fundamentalist religion in the US.

 

Not only Baptists but Penetecostals/apostolics can be very fundy and there are alot entrenched in the "bible belt" area. Also, mormons are pretty fundy and clanish.

 

 

Okay, I just "pulled a name out of the hat." At the time, I didn't have a name. In my mind, they were all "schtedla." That is our PA German word for outsiders. Literally, it means "people who live in town" or "urbanites," but I don't think all these people live in towns. At the time I came to that insight I had no idea what denomination those fundies belonged to. I am not sure I even knew to call them fundamentalists. I just recognized an attitude. I think I called it "militant Christianity" at the time, because that is what it felt like, pacifists or not. They were militant. They were willing to sacrifice humans for their religion and even though I understood all the age-old religious rhetoric behind it, something deep inside of me protested violently that THIS IS WRONG!

[R. S. Martin]

The problem with fundamentalist christians is that they think they are so absolutely correct in their beliefs and that these beliefs are so obviously correct to all who hear them, that they assume anyone who doesn't believe as they do must have an evil ulterior motive.

 

Yes, this is what I was taught. It's assumptions built on nothing but suspicion. Suspicion works both ways. I was suspicious of blanket statements that made universal claims. So I would look for testable details and ask about them. And how I was hated for it!

 

I'm beginning to get enough distance from the pain and anguish to take pride in my astute observations and inquiries even as a child, but it nearly killed me on more than one occassion.

 

In their mind, who but those with the blackest hearts would turn away from the obvious truth and goodness of their specific version of god. Therefore they feel that they have more rights than other groups of people. This makes them feel they have the divine right to share their belief in any setting, invited or not, since they view themselves as right. On the other hand, they do not feel anyone else has this same right to expression, because they feel that others are spreading lies and evil lies at that, so therefore these other opinions must be discouraged and opressed.

 

Very eloquently put.

 

I think Jesus would have some pretty strong language to describe that attitude. There were people like that in his day, too, if I know my Bible.

 

Sometimes it feels hopeless but I think for the most part people as a whole are moving away from religioius fundamentalism.

 

I've seen this kind of statement several times on exC in the past few months. I'm trying to understand on what it's based. Maybe too many people have become disillusioned with President Bush?