You Atheist Hater!

[Brother Jeff]

Goddamn. I've been compared to a murderer because I'm an atheist, and I've been called a "hater". Praise God for Christian Love! Glory! NOT. I got the following comment on this post on my glorious site today from Sister Michelle:

 

So are you the hater that walked into the Youth With A Mission in Denver and killed those kids today?

 

Or are you just delighted in him?

 

The murderer probably enjoyed your blog, or blogs like yours, very much.

Why do you want to spread hatred?

 

You would never write this way about blacks or gays — I hope!

 

This is my response:

 

Michelle: “the hater…”

 

Brother Jeff: Pot. Kettle. Black. It’s quite obvious that you hate me. Where’s that famous Christian love? You know, that “Show them Jesus” love that is so often talked about but so very infrequently practiced.

 

Wow, I’m being compared with a murderer because I’m an atheist. Unbelievable - and scary, but unfortunately typical. In the minds of fundie fanatics (regardless of religion), anyone who isn’t like them is evil. I had not heard about this particular incident, but of course I don’t delight in it. As a decent human being, I never delight in the misfortunes or tragedies that affect others. I unfortunately can’t say the same for Christians since they delight in their belief that everyone who doesn’t share their religious beliefs is going to be barbecued forever by their “loving” god.

 

Michelle: Why do you want to spread hatred?

 

Brother Jeff: I don’t want to spread hatred. I leave that to the Christians. They do a good enough job of judging others and spreading the hate around. What I want to spread is TRUTH and a rational world view. My hope is that the world one day will be a peaceful place where human beings do not kill or torture other human beings over differences in religious belief. In fact, I hope for a world where the mind virus that is religion has been eradicated. It would be a much more pleasant world!

 

Michelle: You would never write this way about blacks or gays…

 

Brother Jeff: No, I wouldn’t, but Christians do, at least about gays. They routinely spread their disgusting ignorant bigotry and hatred against gays quite publicly. And it’s sickening…

 

In short, before you go pointing out the tiny speck in my eye, do something about the enormous plank in yours. Christians would get a lot more respect if they actually lived by the book that they claim to revere as the “Word of God”. But then that’s actually impossible to do since the “inerrant” thing is so riddled with contradictions…

[Deva]

I guess I must be behind on the news because I never heard of this massacre in Denver.

 

Gee, some people take it so personally when you give them the straight story about their delusions. She is a complete nut.

 

Your response was perfect.

[upstarter]

Maybe you should ask her if she was among the xtians who bombed abortion clinics, or if she just "delighted in them".

[GraphicsGuy]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/us/09cnd-shoot.html?hp

 

Here's an article for the shooting. I highly doubt xianity or atheism had anything particular to do with it...

[R. S. Martin]

Jeff, I responded on your blog.

[R. S. Martin]

Maybe you should ask her if she was among the xtians who bombed abortion clinics, or if she just "delighted in them".

 

[Rhia]

I have two words for her - stupid. bitch.

 

Aside from the abortion clinics - do ask her if she's one of those missionary freaks who will convert indigenous women from other parts of the world, tell them that the remnants of their cultures are evil - and as a Christian demand that they leave "the world" (i.e. their culture) behind because it may be "spiritually binding", and then when these poor women do what in fact they're asked; their fellow kin are so offended that she, or even a daughter or someone else close to her that matters - is taken outside of her home, beaten, starved, raped, and maybe even killed. Does she do this, or just "delight" in this?

[Brother Jeff]

Michelle wrote me back with this reply after I wrote her to inform her that I had responded to her comments:

 

Jeff,

 

In response to your direct e-mail to my inbox informing me that you have responded...

 

Already had my say. Not interested in any ranting rebuttal. Won't look.

 

I still hold that your blog incites violence like the shootings in Colorado, because your blog is full of hate and intolerance.

 

But if you want to have a reasoned and intelligent discussion about Christ's resurrection, e-mail me again.

 

Michelle

 

My response:

 

Hi Michelle,

 

I always inform people when I've responded to their emails or comments on my site. That just seems like common courtesy to me. I find it interesting and very telling that you just automatically assumed that I posted a "ranting" rebuttal to your letter. I, of course, did nothing of the sort. Read my response, or don't read it. I leave that entirely up to you.

 

I fail to see how a blog full of truth and facts and my personal opinion about Christianity can possibly incite violence of any sort. That's a plainly ridiculous charge that carries no weight with me.

 

If you want to see blogs full of hate and intolerance, then go read an average Christian blog. You'll unfortunately find plenty of those things there, along with plenty of (sadly largely willful) ignorance. It's an unfortunate reality, but Christians tend to be the most hateful and intolerant and judgmental people on the face of the earth. You are proving that yourself, in my opinion, with the hatred and intolerance and judgment you have directed toward me.

 

I'm always open to reasonable and intelligent discussions on religious topics. If you want to discuss Christ's alleged resurrection, that's sounds good to me. I look forward to it.

[R. S. Martin]

For people for whom "respect"="agree with my religious belief" it is not possible to understand the meaning of "hate and intolerance" as we mean it. Those words are nothing but a label to stick onto anything they disagree with. That is the most sense I can make out of the things she is saying.

 

The one bible verse that has real meaning for such people is: Those who are not with us are against us.

[godlessgrrl]

Wow. What a dumbass bitch.

 

I'm guessing she's pissed off about what happened - understandably so - and needs some kind of scapegoat to take her anger out on. Who knows how she found your blog, but you're a convenient target.

 

Or maybe she's just a dumbass bitch. Yeah - I like that option better.

[Thurisaz]

But if you want to have a reasoned and intelligent discussion about Christ's resurrection, e-mail me again.

 

Michelle

 

 

"If you should want to discuss the advantages of square circles please email me"

[Brother Jeff]

But if you want to have a reasoned and intelligent discussion about Christ's resurrection, e-mail me again.

 

Michelle

 

 

"If you should want to discuss the advantages of square circles please email me"

 

Square circles are awesome, man! They are even better than rectangular triangles! Glory!

 

I did email Michelle again, but I doubt I'll ever hear from her again since I pointed out that she was the hateful and intolerant one, not me. What a typically judgmental bitch.

[Astreja]

I, too, favour the "stupid bitch" explanation. Isn't Occam's Razor wonderful?

 

But I also gave her a metaphorical kick in the teeth, just because. Grrr...

[smellincoffee]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/us/09cnd-shoot.html?hp

 

Here's an article for the shooting. I highly doubt xianity or atheism had anything particular to do with it...

 

 

Actually, it might. I'm a member of the Ex-Pentecostals, and yesterday following the shooting, a member of the forums posted a number of highly agitative posts:

 

 

I’m coming for EVERYONE soon and I WILL be armed to the @#%$ teeth and I WILL shoot to kill. ….God, I can’t wait till I can kill you people. Feel no remorse, no sense of shame, I don’t care if I live or die in the shoot-out. All I want to do is kill and injure as many of you … as I can especially Christians who are to blame for most of the problems in the world.

 

http://p223.ezboard.com/fexpentecostalforumsfrm7

 

Things like that. He has experience with YWAM and New Life Church, so we're a little worried. Those posts were reported to the FBI. One bit of positive news is that he posted all of those hours AFTER the shooting...so there's reason to hope that an ex-Christian won't be involved with this.

[SWIM]

My wife went on a "rant" about the commercials on tv last night, reminded me of this thread.

 

She asked me "why do so many people hate god?"

 

I told her that I didn't think anyone, or at least *very* few *hate* god, there are plenty that don't believe in him, but actually believing *and* hating god I think is extremely rare.

 

That pretty much ended the conversation, she has found it very hard to fully engage me in religious debate lately... (wonder why?) lol

[♦ nivek ♦]

Jeffers:

 

Dead serious note here.

 

**I** am a well armed, "regulated", as in "Having arms and knowing where they shoot accurately, *regulated*.

 

Got some toys in which should I ever elect to do so, could slay dozens, maybe even hundreds with a well placed ambush setup outside the entryway of the Denver Megachurch. None are *unlawful*, nor *illegal* in any way or form.

 

I disbelieve. But in turn I am not inclined to hurt others with emitters of high speeded copper and lead pills, "Just because" "I had a bad day" Mommy starched my undies" "Peanut butter sammichs weren't fried right" "Axe was dull"

"Insert any appropriate or otherwise excuse here".

 

With all my assorted daily problems and health isssues, I've yet to desire to "take anyone with me when I go" bullshit.

 

The actors in these now seemingly obtuse and senseless murder, takings of lives for no good reason but their own pleasure, are the fucked up ones. None of we do shit to influence them, they made the mental connect and effort to wrap finger around trigger on a loaded gun causing it to fire.

 

The Michelle voice in your exchange sounds so much like the xtians I'm talking to on some of the RKBA/2A boards..

"Take God outa the mesage in life, SEE what HAPPENS??"

 

I call bullshit.

 

kL

[GraphicsGuy]

"Take God outa the mesage in life, SEE what HAPPENS??"

 

I call bullshit.

 

I agree with the "bullshit" sentiment. The only reason the xians say that is because *they* can't handle the thought that they might be wrong.

[smellincoffee]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/us/09cnd-shoot.html?hp

 

Here's an article for the shooting. I highly doubt xianity or atheism had anything particular to do with it...

 

 

Actually, it might. I'm a member of the Ex-Pentecostals, and yesterday following the shooting, a member of the forums posted a number of highly agitative posts:

 

 

I’m coming for EVERYONE soon and I WILL be armed to the @#%$ teeth and I WILL shoot to kill. ….God, I can’t wait till I can kill you people. Feel no remorse, no sense of shame, I don’t care if I live or die in the shoot-out. All I want to do is kill and injure as many of you … as I can especially Christians who are to blame for most of the problems in the world.

 

http://p223.ezboard.com/fexpentecostalforumsfrm7

 

Things like that. He has experience with YWAM and New Life Church, so we're a little worried. Those posts were reported to the FBI. One bit of positive news is that he posted all of those hours AFTER the shooting...so there's reason to hope that an ex-Christian won't be involved with this.

 

Hi Smellincoffe,

 

I used to belong to Ex-Pent, that is where I deconverted, when the original owner Jay was still there. That is awful about the person positing on your board like that. It sounds like it is a regular? I do know that not all the posters are ex-christians, some are still believers like Joe, the forum owner eventually became Lutheran after a few years of hardcore athiesm.

 

Years back when I was active on the forum, we had another interesting incident. We had a young pentecostal man from a pentecostal forum we would sometimes cross debate with. He came to our board and it ended up that he was actually robbing banks in Arkansas and a neighboring state. On the pentecostal board you could see the day of his last robbery, some kind of interesting off topic conversation going on between him and his girlfriend. Very strange.

 

 

YOu are right, smellincoffee, on the ExPent forum Nghtmrchld26 wrote this

 

" You guys were awesome. It's time for me to head out and teach these assholes a lesson

 

Thanks for listening and all....even though even many of you ex-pentecostals don't understand......See you all on the other side, we're leaving this nightmare behind to a better place"

http://p223.ezboard.com/Leaving/fexpenteco...icID=2036.topic

 

 

Which was posted the morning of Dec 9, when the shootings took place.

 

 

It also appears he had a history with YWAM in Denver. From a post on Ex-P by Nghtmrchld26:

I did my DTS at YWAM Denver and Dale Lambert was my DTS school leader. I witnessed all kinds of insanity. Men would be making out with other men in the hallways, listening to all kinds of "metal music"(non-christian), smoke pot with each other while off base, there were rumors of sexual activity, both hetero and homosexual.

 

Not that any of those things are bad...but.......

Why was I told that I couldn't be a missionary because I wasn't "social enough"? I was told that I was "an introvert."

Everyone else got to go on their outreaches except for a few who lied about smoking(cigarettes).

 

The authoritarianism and hypocrisy is outrageous. The YWAM leaders would always believe that they had some special "connection to God" to be able to dictate and rule over student's lives. I'm not talking about simple rules like "no drugs allowed" but rather "we prayed and we feel like the spirit says that you're not loyal enough" or "we prayed and we feel like God says you're not to go on any outreaches." For just asking the question "why are we having a special group meeting tonight?" I was told "we prayed and we feel that you have a spirit of rebellion and if you ask or question anything any further we may have to send you home..." I was told that I could not watch an "R" movie at a movie theater even though several of the other students did...and yes, the leaders knew full well about it.

 

 

The lack of knowledge and thinking is another story. Almost none of those people ever questioned the things they were taught. They always assume it's true and in matters of contradictory teachers and teachings, they'd just believe and follow whatever everyone's emotions were feeling. I remember "holy spirit week" where they tried to get everyone "baptised in the holy spirit." I went along with it just to stop people harassing me and asking me "are you still speaking in tongues? you better not stop doing that or you might lose the holy spirit....." I now know that the Divine Spirit is within all of us no matter what our religion is. Very few actually had answers in regards to salvation or "hearing the voice of God." A lot of the "prophesy" in those groups was/is nothing more than lower psychism. Sure, they can be accurate once in a while, but even then it's on a lower level. Just because someone is psychically/spiritually sensitive doesn't mean they know how to exercise it or have a trained mind. It also does not mean that they understand spiritual principles. It only means that they are sensitive to the lower astral levels.

 

1 person did get sent home for making an amateur sex video of homosexual nature....6 or 7 people were involved but only that one person got sent home. I know 3 or 4 others were sent home simply for smoking a legal nicotine cigarette. A few people got "talks"(slaps on the wrist) about their openly homosexual behaviour in front of everyone. They all went on outreach. For the record, when I was told by the YWAM staff 1 week before I was to leave on outreach that they did not want me on outreach, I asked them if I had done anything wrong. I ask them to clarify their reasons and they did make it clear to me that I had not commited any "sin" or done anything wrong...except for the one time I questioned, but that that was not the reason they were sending me home. They made it clear that they were sending me home because they "prayed to God" and felt that I was "not social enough" and was "an introvert." After having left I of course found out how true all those words about "we all love and care about you very much" and "we do care about you." really were.......

I never heard back from them and when I got home....well.....back to the usual christian insanity at home and my parent's church.

 

 

The fact is, in YWAM, and christianity, it's all about the Beautiful People. No, it's not just "one group of bad christians" but rather....almost every group of christians except for a few open minded non-evangelical churches. If you're an extrovert, and popular, then yes, there is plenty of love waiting for you in christianity. If you ask questions and want to understand things and/or desire a real and deep spirituality, or if you're just not popular...well.......you are considered as one of the horrible people and are either going to be abused or kicked out by "holy spirit love filled" christians. it's all about......

the Beautiful People........

 

Someone on Ex-P said that the shooter killed themselves.

 

Looks like Ex-P might be getting alot of attention soon. I mean, it isn't conclusive yet but it is mighty coincidental.

 

I take no delight in hearing about people shedding innocent blood and breaking down to the point that they think an open massacre on people is any kind of solution. What a horrible situation. Really a disheartening thing to have happen. I don't think that cold violence is the answer to anyone's upset with their former religion.

 

Lutherius/Joe and I don't hold each other in high regard (or any regard for that matter), but in this instance I think he handled the situation as effectively as possible on the forum. I think this topic deserves its own thread, but out of deference for Aexapo, the original visionary of Ex-P, whom I hold in high regard, I will refrain.

 

 

This was actually the first I've seen of the guy, but he's apparently been there a while, seeing as he has 400+ posts. He might've been stewing in his own juices or something during the past two years that I've been a member of the Ex-Pentecostals.

[smellincoffee]

Agreed -- Pentecostalism is not for the mentally unstable. Most of the people raised in it tend to be pretty volatile, emotionally speaking. I say "most" because I started to adopt stoicism in grade school and other people learn that dealing with normal people requires a little control of the emotions.

[Thurisaz]

I agree with the "bullshit" sentiment. The only reason the xians say that is because *they* can't handle the thought that they might be wrong.

 

Absofuckinglutely. They'll pull any excuse out of their arses to tell themselves that they're still right.

[hereticzero]

Christians believe it is rude to fart or belch in public so if they don't bitch about something, they will explode.

 

Christians want to blame anyone but themselves when things do not go according to their plans. Atheists are easy targets for their anger. Surely god would not punish such devout believers? They'll have a good cry and bless each other for their faith in trying times and when the dead are buried, the rest will go back to their made-up worlds and continue to blame the rest of us for the failings of one of their own.