Proof Of Genesis Account Of Flood

[R. S. Martin]

 

Ruby Sera, I think even the NT calls these OT stories like Noah's Flood and Jonah's Whale, fables. It seems difficult to determine which stories are suppose to be fables and which are to be historical accounts, or where one ends and the other begins.

 

See Titus 1:14 where they are accusing the Cretians of not heeding those Jewish fables...

 

Titus 1:14

Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

 

However, I do think there may be an actual catastrophic incident that these flood fables are built upon, like those of Noah's flood, the aboriginal tribes you mentioned, and the flood of Gilgamesh. However, I think that many people survived, no one got all the animals, there was no huge ark built ahead of time for this, they knew that the tallest mountain was never covered with water, nor all the land for that matter, etc. IMO, there was a message to a greatly embellished story that was the intention, like in a fable. I think they would probably laugh to see so many had misconstrued these fables into being literally true events. :ohmy:

 

I think I am agreeing with everything people are saying here, with the exception of those who insist that Noah's Flood covered the entire earth.

 

QUESTION: How do you determine that the fables in Titus 1:14 refer to stuff in Genesis? According to the Gospels there were all kinds of things being said during Jesus' time about Messiahs. Paul could have been referring to some of that stuff. Or any number of other things. We know there are a lot of Gnostic, and other, texts that didn't make it into the Bible. And I think it is clear that much was happening that was totally oral. This was, after all, an oral society with only a few literate elite. How do you know he was not referring to some fables that died two thousand years ago that you and I have never seen or heard about? It just seems awfully far-fetched to me to assume that Paul was referring to Genesis but you may have a solid basis for thinking that. If so, I am interested in knowing what that basis is. I have not studied that passage in any depth.

[1oddmanout]

 

Ruby Sera, I think even the NT calls these OT stories like Noah's Flood and Jonah's Whale, fables. It seems difficult to determine which stories are suppose to be fables and which are to be historical accounts, or where one ends and the other begins.

 

See Titus 1:14 where they are accusing the Cretians of not heeding those Jewish fables...

 

Titus 1:14

Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

 

However, I do think there may be an actual catastrophic incident that these flood fables are built upon, like those of Noah's flood, the aboriginal tribes you mentioned, and the flood of Gilgamesh. However, I think that many people survived, no one got all the animals, there was no huge ark built ahead of time for this, they knew that the tallest mountain was never covered with water, nor all the land for that matter, etc. IMO, there was a message to a greatly embellished story that was the intention, like in a fable. I think they would probably laugh to see so many had misconstrued these fables into being literally true events. :ohmy:

 

I think I am agreeing with everything people are saying here, with the exception of those who insist that Noah's Flood covered the entire earth.

 

QUESTION: How do you determine that the fables in Titus 1:14 refer to stuff in Genesis? According to the Gospels there were all kinds of things being said during Jesus' time about Messiahs. Paul could have been referring to some of that stuff. Or any number of other things. We know there are a lot of Gnostic, and other, texts that didn't make it into the Bible. And I think it is clear that much was happening that was totally oral. This was, after all, an oral society with only a few literate elite. How do you know he was not referring to some fables that died two thousand years ago that you and I have never seen or heard about? It just seems awfully far-fetched to me to assume that Paul was referring to Genesis but you may have a solid basis for thinking that. If so, I am interested in knowing what that basis is. I have not studied that passage in any depth.

 

Wow, it has been a long time since I have generated one of these Babble studies. Most references go back to 1 Tim

1:4. I have always enjoyed the academic achievements of the Reformed Commentators, and sorry for the cut and paste. Few ever compare 'fables' with the Genesis accounts.

 

1Ti 1:4

(ESV) nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith.

 

Tit 1:14

(ESV) not devoting themselves to Jewish myths and the commands of people who turn away from the truth.

 

 

THAYER’S GREEK DEFINITIONS

G3454 μῦθος muthos

Thayer Definition:

1) a speech, word, saying

2) a narrative, story

2a) a true narrative

2b) a fiction, a fable

2b1) an invention, a falsehood

Part of Speech: noun masculine

A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: perhaps from the same as G3453 (through the idea of tuition)

VINCENT’S WORD STUDIES

1Ti 1:4 -

Give heed (Ï€ÏοσεÌχειν)

oP. Frequent in lxx and Class. Lit. To hold to. Often with τὸν νοῦν the mind, which must be supplied here. It means here not merely to give attention to, but to give assent to. So Act_8:6; Act_16:14; Heb_2:1; 2Pe_1:19.

Fables (μυÌθοις)

Μῦθος, in its widest sense, means word, speech, conversation or its subject. Hence the talk of men, rumour, report, a saying, a story, true or false; later, a fiction as distinguished from λοÌγος a historic tale. In Attic prose, commonly a legend of prehistoric Greek times. Thus Plato, Repub. 330 D, οἱ λεγοÌμενοι μῦθοι πεÏὶ τῶν ἐν ἉÌΐδου what are called myths concerning those in Hades. Only once in lxx, Sir. 20:19, in the sense of a saying or story. In N.T. Only in Pastorals, and 2Pe_1:16. As to its exact reference here, it is impossible to speak with certainty. Expositors are hopelessly disagreed, some referring it to Jewish, others to Gnostic fancies. It is explained as meaning traditional supplements to the law, allegorical interpretations, Jewish stories of miracles, Rabbinical fabrications, whether in history or doctrine, false doctrines generally, etc. It is to be observed that μῦθοι are called Jewish in Tit_1:14. In 1Ti_4:7, they are described as profane and characteristic of old wives. In 2Ti_4:4, the word is used absolutely, as here.

Endless genealogies (γενεαλογιÌαις ἀπεÏαÌντοις)

Both words Pasto. For γενεαλογιÌα (olxx) comp. Tit_3:9. Γενεαλογεῖσθαι to trace ancestry, only Heb_7:6; comp. 1Ch_5:1, the only instance in lxx. ἉπεÌÏαντος endless, N.T.o. Twice in lxx. By some the genealogies are referred to the Gnostic aeons or series of emanations from the divine unity; by others to the O.T. Genealogies as interpreted allegorically by Philo, and made the basis of a psychological system, or O.T. Genealogies adorned with fables: by others again to genealogical registers proper, used to foster the religious and national pride of the Jews against Gentiles, or to ascertain the descent of the Messiah. ἉπεÌÏαντος from ἀ not, and πεÌÏας limit or terminus. ΠεÌÏας may be taken in the sense of object or aim, so that the adjective here may mean without object, useless. (So Chrysostom, Holtzmann, and von Soden.) Others take it in a popular sense, as describing the tedious length of the genealogies (Alford); and others that these matters furnish an inexhaustible subject of study (Weiss). “Fables and endless genealogies†form a single conception, the καὶ and being explanatory, that is to say, and the “endless genealogies†indicating in what the peculiarity of the fables consists.

 

ROBERTSON’S WORD PICTURES

1Ti 1:4 -

To give heed (prosechein). With noun understood. Old and common idiom in N.T. especially in Luke and Acts (Act_8:10.). Not in Paul’s earlier Epistles. 1Ti_3:8; 1Ti_4:1, 1Ti_4:13; Tit_1:14.

To fables (muthois). Dative case of old word for speech, narrative, story, fiction, falsehood. In N.T. only 2Pe_1:16; 1Ti_1:4; 1Ti_4:7; Tit_1:14; 2Ti_4:4.

Genealogies (genealogiais). Dative of old word, in lxx, in N.T. only here and Tit_3:9.

 

Tit 1:14 -

See note on 1Ti_1:4 for prosechō and muthois, only here we have Jewish (Ioudaikois) added. Perhaps a reference to the oral traditions condemned by Christ in Mar_7:2-8. See also Col_2:22, apparently Pharisaic type of Gnostics.

Who turn away from the truth (apostrephomenōn). Present middle (direct) participle of apostrephō, “men turning themselves away from the truth†(accusative according to regular idiom). “The truth†(1Ti_4:3) is the gospel (Eph_4:21).

 

THE PEOPLE’S NEW TESTAMENT

1Ti 1:3-4 -

 

As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus. Paul, it is presumed, seeing on the occasion of his last visit the need of a trusty evangelist at Ephesus to counteract the errors which were arising, had left Timothy behind. He was not left there as a bishop, as has been sometimes claimed, for we find that a part of his business was to appoint bishops; but as the representative of the apostle, an evangelist. The office of Titus in Crete was similar.

 

That they teach no other doctrine. Than the gospel which they had been taught. Some of the errors which he was to correct are stated in 1Ti_1:4.

 

Neither give heed to fables. In Tit_1:14, the fables are called "Jewish." It is likely such fables as those of the Talmud are meant, legends which have been added to the history of the Old Testament, additions to the Scriptures. Though the Talmud was committed to writing a little later, it aimed to collect the legends and traditions which had been long in existence.

 

Endless genealogies. Philo, a learned Alexandrian Jew who wrote a little before Paul's time, built up a whole system on genealogies. The names in the genealogies with him represented the various conditions of the soul. Some have supposed that Paul refers to some foolish fancies of the Gnostics, but those were of later date.

 

ALBERT BARNES NOTES ON THE BIBLE

1Ti 1:4 -

Neither give heed to fables - That is, that they should not bestow their attention on fables, or regard such trifles as of importance. The “fables†here referred to were probably the idle and puerile superstitions and conceits of the Jewish rabbies. The word rendered “fable†(μῦθος muthos) means properly “speech†or “discourse,†and then fable or fiction, or a mystic discourse. Such things abounded among the Greeks as well as the Jews, but it is probable that the latter here are particularly intended. These were composed of frivolous and unfounded stories, which they regarded as of great importance, and which they seem to have desired to incorporate with the teachings of Christianity. Paul, who had been brought up amidst these superstitions, saw at once how they would tend to draw off the mind from the truth, and would corrupt the true religion. One of the most successful arts of the adversary of souls has been to mingle fable with truth; and when he cannot overthrow the truth by direct opposition, to neutralize it by mingling with it much that is false and frivolous.

And endless genealogies - This also refers to Jewish teaching. The Hebrews kept careful genealogical records, for this was necessary in order that the distinction of their tribes might be kept up. Of course, in the lapse of centuries these tables would become very numerous, complicated, and extended - so that they might without much exaggeration be called “endless.†The Jews attached great importance to them, and insisted on their being carefully preserved. As the Messiah, however, had now come - as the Jewish polity was to cease - as the separation between them and the pagan was no longer necessary, and the distinction of tribes was now useless, there was no propriety that these distinctions should be regarded by Christians. The whole system was, moreover, contrary to the genius of Christianity, for it served to keep up the pride of blood and of birth.

Which minister questions - Which afford matter for troublesome and angry debates. It was often difficult to settle or understand them. They became complicated and perplexing. Nothing is more difficult than to unravel an extensive genealogical table. To do this, therefore, would often give rise to contentions, and when settled, would give rise still further to questions about rank and precedence.

 

ADAM CLARKE’S COMMENTARY ON THE BIBLE

1Ti 1:4 -

Neither give heed to fables - Idle fancies; things of no moment; doctrines and opinions unauthenticated; silly legends, of which no people ever possessed a greater stock than the Jews. Their Talmud abounds with them; and the English reader may find them in abundance in Stehlin’s Jewish Traditions, 2 vols. 8vo.

Endless genealogies - I suppose the apostle to mean those genealogies which were uncertain - that never could be made out, either in the ascending or descending line; and, principally, such as referred to the great promise of the Messiah, and to the priesthood. The Jews had scrupulously preserved their genealogical tables till the advent of Christ and the evangelists had recourse to them, and appealed to them in reference to our Lord’s descent from the house of David; Matthew taking this genealogy in the descending, Luke in the ascending, line. And whatever difficulties we may now find in these genealogies, they were certainly clear to the Jews; nor did the most determined enemies of the Gospel attempt to raise one objection to it from the appeal which the evangelists had made to their own public and accredited tables. All was then certain; but we are told that Herod destroyed the public registers; he, being an Idumean, was jealous of the noble origin of the Jews; and, that none might be able to reproach him with his descent, be ordered the genealogical tables, which were kept among the archives in the temple, to be burnt. See Euseb. H. E., lib. i. cap. 8. From this time the Jews could refer to their genealogies only from memory, or from those imperfect tables which had been preserved in private hands; and to make out any regular line from these must have been endless and uncertain. It is probably to this that the apostle refers; I mean the endless and useless labor which the attempts to make out these genealogies must produce, the authentic tables being destroyed. This, were all other proofs wanting, would be an irresistible argument against the Jews that the Messiah is come; for their own prophets had distinctly marked out the line by which he was to come; the genealogies are now all lost; nor is there a Jew in the universe that can show from what tribe he is descended. There can, therefore, be no Messiah to come, as none could show, let him have what other pretensions he might, that he sprang from the house of David. The Jews do not, at present, pretend to have any such tables; and, far from being able to prove the Messiah from his descent, they are now obliged to say that, when, the Messiah comes, he will restore the genealogies by the Holy Spirit that shall rest upon him. “For,†says Maimonides, “in the days of the Messiah, when his kingdom shall be established, all the Israelites shall be gathered together unto him; and all shall be classed in their genealogies by his mouth, through the Holy Spirit that shall rest upon him; as it is written, Mal_3:3 : He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he shall purify the sons of Levi. First he will purify the Levites, and shall say: ‘This man is a descendant from the priests; and this, of the stock of the Levites;’ and he shall cast out those who are not of the stock of Israel; for behold it is said, Ezr_2:63 : And the Tirshatha said-they should not eat of the most holy things, till there stood up a priest with Urim and Thummim. Thus, by the Holy Spirit, the genealogies are to be revised.†See Schoettgen.

Some learned men suppose that the apostle alludes here to the Aeons, among the Gnostics and Valentinians, of whom there were endless numbers to make up what was called their pleroma; or to the sephiroth, or splendours of the Cabalists. But it is certain that these heresies had not arrived to any formidable head in the apostle’s time; and it has long been a doubt with me whether they even existed at that time: and I think it the most simple way, and most likely to be the intention of the apostle, to refer all to the Jewish genealogies, which he calls Jewish fables, Tit_1:14, to which we know they were strongly and even conscientiously attached and which, at this time, it must have been extremely difficult to make out.

Instead of γενεαλογιαις, genealogies, some learned men have conjectured that the original word was κενολογιαις, empty words, vain speeches; but this conjecture is not supported by any MS. or version.

 

JOHN GILL’S EXPOSITION OF THE ENTIRE BIBLE

1Ti 1:4 - Neither give heed to fables,.... Old wives' fables, 1Ti_4:7 or Jewish fables, Tit_1:14 the traditions of the elders; anything that was not true; or if it was, yet idle, vain, trifling, and unprofitable:

 

Tit 1:14 - Not giving heed to Jewish fables,.... Concerning God himself, the angels, and the creation of man; concerning the giving of the law at Mount Sinai; concerning the Messiah and his earthly kingdom, and the feast that will be made for the righteous in his days, which will consist of flesh, fish, and fowl, Behemoth, Leviathan, and Zuz, and of wine kept in the grape from the foundation of the world; and concerning the rolling of the dead through the caverns of the earth at the resurrection, with a multitude of other things which were traditionally received.

 

And commandments of men: the traditions of the elders, which the Jews charged the disciples of Christ with the transgression of; and he, on the other hand, very justly reproached them with breaking the commands of God, by attending to them, Mat_15:1. These were the laws and traditions of the fathers, which the Apostle Paul was brought up in, and was zealous of, before his conversion, Act_22:3 and which these judaizing preachers and professors, he here has respect to, were fond of, though they were made by men,

 

that turn from the truth; or "hate it", as the Syriac version renders it; who were enemies unto it, as Hillell and Shammai, the heads of the traditional doctors, and as the Jews, and their Rabbins in general were; and therefore their commandments, of all men, should not be given heed to, by those that bear the Christian name

 

JAMIESON, FAUSSET, AND BROWN COMMENTARY

1Ti 1:4 -

fables — legends about the origin and propagation of angels, such as the false teachers taught at Colosse (Col_2:18-23). “Jewish fables†(Tit_1:14). “Profane, and old wives’ fables†(1Ti_4:7; 2Ti_4:4).

genealogies — not merely such civil genealogies as were common among the Jews, whereby they traced their descent from the patriarchs, to which Paul would not object, and which he would not as here class with “fables,†but Gnostic genealogies of spirits and aeons, as they called them, “Lists of Gnostic emanations†[Alford]. So Tertullian [Against Valentinian, c. 3], and Irenaeus [Preface]. The Judaizers here alluded to, while maintaining the perpetual obligation of the Mosaic law, joined with it a theosophic ascetic tendency, pretending to see in it mysteries deeper than others could see. The seeds, not the full-grown Gnosticism of the post-apostolic age, then existed. This formed the transition stage between Judaism and Gnosticism. “Endless†refers to the tedious unprofitableness of their lengthy genealogies (compare Tit_3:9). Paul opposes to their “aeons,†the “King of the aeons (so the Greek, 1Ti_1:17), whom be glory throughout the aeons of aeons.†The word “aeons†was probably not used in the technical sense of the latter Gnostics as yet; but “the only wise God†(1Ti_1:17), by anticipation, confutes the subsequently adopted notions in the Gnostics’ own phraseology.

[Amanda]

<snip> QUESTION: How do you determine that the fables in Titus 1:14 refer to stuff in Genesis?

 

Ruby Sera, I will first tell you that I came onto this site not knowing if the Noah's Flood was true or not. I knew it didn't cover the entire earth, but perhaps the world as they knew it to be at the time. Then, of course, the fine people here got me to THINK about it. Clearly, they are fables. Really studying these fables critically, they can have a wonderful moral to the story, IMO. I suppose these Jewish fables were of enough significance and popularity, that they got included into the OT.

 

IF we just THINK about it, do you really think an adult could believe Jonah got swallowed by a whale and lived three days in the belly of it? :ohmy:

 

Equally so, how could the Temple of Babble have really happened? (I think there may have been a real incident at the core of this fable, and this is NOT about different languages being formed either. That goes to show just how these stories evolved since they were written!) :ohmy:

 

Noah's Ark, now what really got me, was just thinking how could I possibly get two of every animal, AND build an ark, just in the city where I live, Orlando! Like I'm not going to have to chase them, and they're just going to follow me willingly. Yeah, right.

 

I think even 1 Cor. 13:11 may be talking about people of those days believing these fables are true...

 

13:11

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

 

BTW, have you ever studied other spiritual teachings, like Tibbetan Buddhism? They also use stories to get across a concept. I think stories and fables were very popular back then. After all, they didn't have TV or the internet.

 

 

Wow, thanks for sharing from a knowledgeable position of what I was only speculating.

[Jubilant]

IF we just THINK about it, do you really think an adult could believe Jonah got swallowed by a whale and lived three days in the belly of it? :ohmy:

 

First of all...HI Amanda!!!! I've missed conversing with and need to send you a PM. Okay, now back to your post...

 

We are speaking about millions of grown adults who yes, still today who are educated and should know better, wholeheartedly believe that Johah was swallowed by a whale! And, who believe in the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and a boogeyman called the Devil...literally. Perhaps though, because believers today have been taught that the bible is literally all true, they've lost the true meanings and I have no doubt that people back then saw it as you do now, fables with lessons. Although, I do wonder about the glorious lesson one should get out of a god drowning all of humanity. [shrug]

[Ouroboros]

The whale didn't swallow Chuck Norris, Chuck Norris swallowed the whale...

 

Anyway. Jonah in the whale. Three days and three nights. That means that he was dead. You can't hold your breath that long. So he was dead, and resurrected, the first man in the Bible who was miraculously resurrected on his own by God's power only. There are other stories before that one, but those included a strong prophet and such to work as the medium for the power of God. But in the case of Jonah, he was resurrected just like Jesus. And... he was sacrificed by the crew on the boat. Sacrificed to save them from the wrath of God. Starting to see any similarities here? Jonah was the first Messiah.

[Amanda]

First of all...HI Amanda!!!! I've missed conversing with and need to send you a PM.

Hi Jubilant! I was just thinking of you last night and today! I was going to send you a PM too! Wow... we're really connected, eh'?

We are speaking about millions of grown adults who yes, still today who are educated and should know better, wholeheartedly believe that Johah was swallowed by a whale!

I understand this, as it is so pervasive in our culture and we just don't really THINK about it. It just gets handed down as a presupposition to life, and usually goes unchallenged. My teacher in seminary privately told me he thought it was a fable, and I doubted it then. You and HanSolo were two of the people who diligently tried to get me to see the light.

And, who believe in the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ,

I'm still not convinced that these stories, probably embellished a lot, do not have a core of truth somewhere.

 

It seems that with the evolution of time, some people get so immortalized... that the many generations to follow think they are just myths, like St. Nicholas and Imhotep.

and a boogeyman called the Devil...literally. Perhaps though, because believers today have been taught that the bible is literally all true, they've lost the true meanings and I have no doubt that people back then saw it as you do now, fables with lessons. Although, I do wonder about the glorious lesson one should get out of a god drowning all of humanity. [shrug]

Yep, I can see the spin on these teachings got clearly out of hand! Heck, IMO, there's hardly any similarities today, to what I believe were its initial intentions. Now, it seems the popular christian mentality, Fundamentalism, has created a group of highly dysfunctional people with a victim mentality.

 

Noah's Flood, IMO, is a story about a group of people who thought they were better than everything else and abused the earth and all life, so god distroyed it all and started again. Thank goodness it's just a fable.

 

 

But in the case of Jonah, he was resurrected just like Jesus. And... he was sacrificed by the crew on the boat. Sacrificed to save them from the wrath of God. Starting to see any similarities here? Jonah was the first Messiah.

Another interesting point...

[Ouroboros]

The connecting thread through the stories of the Bible is: the savior.

 

Noah saved the humanity and animal life, by letting a handful of humans survive the wrath of the gods.

 

Moses saved Israel, by taking them out from bondage.

 

Joshua saved Israel too, now this time to give them a paradise.

 

Jonah saved the message from the gods for repentance and removing "sin" from society.

 

And then Paul saw this thread, and tied it to the Jesus stories he heard from the Jewish Messianic cult that believe in some form of Savior, maybe a terrorist with the name Barabbas or such. Interesting that Bar-abbas means the fathers son, just like Jesus. The story do some kind of a comparison between Jesus the spiritual savior and Barabbas the human, social reformer and terrorist. I think that part of the story in the Gospel was intentionally written to give a separation between the Jesus the new Helenistic Christians supposedly believed in versus the Jewish Messianic "Christians" that believed in a natural, physical Jesus, born of man. I think it might show how the myth and legend was separated from the original human root.

[R. S. Martin]

<snip> QUESTION: How do you determine that the fables in Titus 1:14 refer to stuff in Genesis?

 

Ruby Sera, I will first tell you that I came onto this site not knowing if the Noah's Flood was true or not. I knew it didn't cover the entire earth, but perhaps the world as they knew it to be at the time. Then, of course, the fine people here got me to THINK about it. Clearly, they are fables. Really studying these fables critically, they can have a wonderful moral to the story, IMO. I suppose these Jewish fables were of enough significance and popularity, that they got included into the OT.

 

IF we just THINK about it, do you really think an adult could believe Jonah got swallowed by a whale and lived three days in the belly of it? :ohmy:

 

Equally so, how could the Temple of Babble have really happened? (I think there may have been a real incident at the core of this fable, and this is NOT about different languages being formed either. That goes to show just how these stories evolved since they were written!) :ohmy:

 

Noah's Ark, now what really got me, was just thinking how could I possibly get two of every animal, AND build an ark, just in the city where I live, Orlando! Like I'm not going to have to chase them, and they're just going to follow me willingly. Yeah, right.

 

I think even 1 Cor. 13:11 may be talking about people of those days believing these fables are true...

 

Amanda, thanks for sharing from your experience. I feel like I hardly know you. However, I don't think my meaning came across to you quite clearly. I will try again.

 

Even if the entire OT is fables, which it is probably not given that a few historical figures and places are mentioned in it that are also verifiable by other means, how do we know that the NT references to Jewish fables refers specifically to the fables recorded in the OT. Like I said in my earlier post, there were lots of oral Jewish fables floating around at the time that never got passed down to us.

 

It seems to me you're "using the Bible to prove the Bible," but from a liberal perspective rather than a fundamentalist perspective. I need more evidence than that to accept that the fables referred to in Titus actually meant the myths of the OT and not some other fables. Such evidence may exist and if so I would like to know about it.

 

I underlined a few things. Hopefully that makes it clearer.

[R. S. Martin]

I don't know how but somehow I missed oddmanout's long post. I read it now and I see that my hunch agrees with his word study. Fables in Titus probably does not refer to Noah's Flood, Jonah and the Whale, etc. but to other more recent things floating around the Middle East in Paul's time. Thanks for the info, oddmanout.

[Amanda]

Amanda, thanks for sharing from your experience. I feel like I hardly know you. However, I don't think my meaning came across to you quite clearly. I will try again.

 

Even if the entire OT is fables, which it is probably not given that a few historical figures and places are mentioned in it that are also verifiable by other means, how do we know that the NT references to Jewish fables refers specifically to the fables recorded in the OT. Like I said in my earlier post, there were lots of oral Jewish fables floating around at the time that never got passed down to us.

 

It seems to me you're "using the Bible to prove the Bible," but from a liberal perspective rather than a fundamentalist perspective. I need more evidence than that to accept that the fables referred to in Titus actually meant the myths of the OT and not some other fables. Such evidence may exist and if so I would like to know about it.

 

I underlined a few things. Hopefully that makes it clearer.

 

Ruby Sera, my apologies. We really don't know each other well yet, and so I may not be as articulate as I should be, in relaying my ideas to someone who doesn't know me. Perhaps we may be having a mismatched communication style too. I think I understood what you were saying the first time though, so I will try to do better.

 

What I said in response was this, with added emphasis and words in parenthesis this time, to attempt to be more discernable:

 

I suppose these (old) Jewish fables were of enough significance and popularity, that they got included into the OT.

 

Meaning, I was speculating that these OT fables were the dominant traditional ones of those days, and hence referenced to heed them by someone of Jewish decent, in Titus 1:14. I could be wrong, and was just speculating.

 

However, if you, or anyone else, have resources or insights in which you may suggest there are other ones more popular in that day, that would hold priority to those which are referenced in the OT, I'd love to hear it. It surely won't be the first time I've learned something new here.

 

I don't know how but somehow I missed oddmanout's long post. I read it now and I see that my hunch agrees with his word study. Fables in Titus probably does not refer to Noah's Flood, Jonah and the Whale, etc. but to other more recent things floating around the Middle East in Paul's time. Thanks for the info, oddmanout.

 

Ruby Sera, you are obviously more well versed than I, in the other cultures at the time, than those with which I am familiar. I thought that what 1 Odd Man Out posted, supported the OT Jewish fables. I'm curious to know how it validates that these OT fables are not the ones being referenced in Titus.

[Amanda]

The connecting thread through the stories of the Bible is: the savior.

HanSolo, I think the connecting thread is that all started out as one, then separated, then going back as one. AND perhaps the myth presents the progression of this process through saviors...

And then Paul saw this thread, and tied it to the Jesus stories he heard from the Jewish Messianic cult that believe in some form of Savior, maybe a terrorist with the name Barabbas or such. Interesting that Bar-abbas means the fathers son, just like Jesus. The story do some kind of a comparison between Jesus the spiritual savior and Barabbas the human, social reformer and terrorist. I think that part of the story in the Gospel was intentionally written to give a separation between the Jesus the new Helenistic Christians supposedly believed in versus the Jewish Messianic "Christians" that believed in a natural, physical Jesus, born of man. I think it might show how the myth and legend was separated from the original human root.

I agree. Actually, that part got me really thinking of just how much myth and legend there really has to be in the sacrificial story. Because I have also seen where Barrabus' first name is Jesus! Are they really meant to represent the same person? I think it is almost showing the dicotomy of every person, that there is a Barrabus and a Christ within us all... no?

 

Sorry... off topic.

[Ouroboros]

The connecting thread through the stories of the Bible is: the savior.

HanSolo, I think the connecting thread is that all started out as one, then separated, then going back as one. AND perhaps the myth presents the progression of this process through saviors...

Let me rephrase that. It's a recurring story in the Bible. It shows the fascination they had in those days for some form of person that would come and save them from the evil and sadness of life. Most likely because most people lived in misery and despair. They needed something to hope for.

[Amanda]

Let me rephrase that. It's a recurring story in the Bible. It shows the fascination they had in those days for some form of person that would come and save them from the evil and sadness of life. Most likely because most people lived in misery and despair. They needed something to hope for.

I can see where we do that today. Look at our current fascination with super-heroes... from Superman to Harry Potter. Perhaps we do this to suspend reasoning, and to think "something miraculous" will happen in our lives to change the present situation. Fundamentalism/religion, especially the way it has been generationally supported, could be very powerful in these regards. Thanks for the insight.